Why is it that art in TROS has to fall prey to the standard ploy of using half-naked women? Why oh why oh why did Mr. Norwood decide that including half-naked women was the way to go?

God forbid that a system using "the most realistic combat system ever" would have art of FULLY ARMORED WOMEN, as opposed to barely dressed teenage wank material......

Why in God's name are these women barely clothed, yet given swords? Armor protects you in battle; chainmail bikinis lead to ugly scars.

--just wanting to know NB

So I take it your book arrived on time then. That's good to know. As much grief as we give the PO its truly amazing how many pieces of mail they push in a day.

As for the art...well, art generally doesn't mean much to me except as something to break text up with, so I guess I was pretty indifferent. Quite honestly, unless its Angus McBride, pictures of fully armored guys (or gals...of which historically there weren't that many) don't do much for me either. Now Angus on the other hand...ah well. The downside to small press is there ain't no way to afford ole Angus.

Since I don´t own a copy of The Riddle of Steel, I can´t say for sure, but to me it seems that the gritty, low-fantasy setting takes some of its inspiration from the sword & sorcery literature of the early 1900´s. Such authors as Robert E. Howard (a personal favorite of mine) had a clearly black and white view on some things, include women, who simply had to be beautiful, naked, and usually helpless. Keeping this in mind, I´d imagine that pictures of such women would fit fine in a gaming book such as The Riddle.

I´m a proud owner of the GURPS Conan supplement, and I have always simply loved the cover picture of the book (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/conan/img/cover_lg.jpg), in which the insanely muscular Conan wields an axe, trying to defend himself and a helpless/topless cute little girl from a humongous monster. Before anyone rushes to their angry reactions, this isn´t to say that I dislike women in general or anything like that, but like many things, it goes perfectly with the genre.

Also, in general, I´m definitely not in favor of using cheap tactics like using half-naked women in marketing or art itself (talking about the horrendous Terminator 3 -movie, for instance), but like I said, if it fits the genre/big picture, I just might go for it.

Now, I´ll quit with my ramble, and feel free to punch me to the teetch if I made any false assumptions.

Pvt Kastro

Nero's Boot wrote: Why is it that art in TROS has to fall prey to the standard ploy of using half-naked women? Why oh why oh why did Mr. Norwood decide that including half-naked women was the way to go?

To post or not to post?

I'm sorry but, why oh why is there a need to complain about the artwork? read the rules, enjoy the game, ask questions, but please don't just complain, it wastes everyones time.

I personally like the illustrations in the main rule book very much (I've not got OBAM yet) and feel that they serve their pupose of bringing across the feel of Weryth very well.

On a side note, women are recorded to have fought alongside men on the medieval battlefield. Apparently (according to the presentor at a medieval festival/re-enactment I went to at the weekend) women's name are listed on muster rolls from that period.

regards,
Dan.

Hi NB,

It seems you're just looking for attention and reasons to complain.

You've sought reasons to complain EVEN before you decided to order the book, decided to complain about the book because of the postal service, and now are complaining about the artwork, which the book makes no special claims about.

I've lost both my parents over the last 2 years, and didn't see it necessary to seek attention, comfort, or whatever it is through a roleplaying site, as its completely inappropriate, and to be honest, a plea for attention.

There has been much valid criticism on these boards, of which Jake has taken note. But, all you've done is complain about things without any form of understanding or discernment.

While I hope you get your money's worth of entertainment, whether it happens to be actual play, or simply an excuse to complain, I want you to know that empty complaints and attention seeking are not as welcome.

If we want to make valid and constructive criticisms about the artwork, let's talk about contrast, scanning quality for sharper images, clearer greytones, etc.

Chris

I have to say that some of the interior art of TROS is pretty good, and some is pretty bad. And most is somewhere inbetween. I do still enjoy the game, because the system does not change according to art.

So you can run a fine campaign where all the women are heavily clad in fur and armor. But will your players like that? :D

I find it hard to believe that people still take you seriously enough to even reply to your questions, you inflammatory little bastard.

Oops, did I say that? *tries to look innocent*

Ok, I'm making a special effort and coming out of lurker mode here....

In response to your question, I have a question for you:
What the hell is wrong with you? You are clearly damaged in some way that makes you incapable of functioning in normal polite society.

It's patently obvious that you are merely trolling for attention (with some success), by posting your nonsense. Foremost, you are in a fan-based forum for TROS. What better place to stir up a flame war than where everyone comes to discuss something they're very happy with? Walking into fan-boy central waving a "TROS Sux!" flag is a surefire way to get your flame fix.

Beyond that, you're not even good at trolling. I mean, c'mon! Surely even you can do better than the classic "Chicks in bikinis are unrealistic" whine!

Now, if you wanted to discuss the quality of the artwork, you might be on to something. I personally find some of the artwork sub-standard even for indepenent publishing. Some of it, on the other hand is quite good. The truth is, I don't care. I didn't buy it for the "purdy pictures".

Have we forgotten one of the most important precepts of online communication? Exclusivity! When you join The Forge, you have a password and username. These aren't just to protect posters from being impersonated. They are to protect the community from undesirable elements such as this.

For Pete's sake! Just ban the kid and get it over with!

@Draigh - "inflammatory little bastard" doesn't begin to cover it.....

Brandon

PS: I'd like to state my support for half naked chicks everywhere! We need more of those....

It might be a good idea to close this thread too.

Rattlehead wrote: I'd like to state my support for half naked chicks everywhere! We need more of those....

Nero,

To answer your objection more seriously - I understand being annoyed by appearing to conform to stereotypes, but there's a difference between conforming to stereotypes and reinforcing the patterns of a genre. As others have noted, TROS is firmly in the tradition of low pulp fantasy, and scantily-clad women are a long part of that imagery. It's worth noting that there are pieces which depict men in less-than-total states of dress, as well... and (for me) the cleverest and most subversive piece is one in the Combat chapter, where a woman dressed in the classic "chainmail bikini" is shown dead with an arrow through her gut.

That picture quite neatly skewers (pun intended), in a nicely subtle way, some of the classic images of the genre, and makes us think about the actual costs of combat.

----SJ "could be worse, could be porn" B

Guys, fuck. Don't make me close another thread.

NB's post was presented in an inflamitory way yes, but that's no reason to fuel a flame war by responding in a like manner. Personal comments about the guy, or drawing parallels between how well some people took personal tragedy over others is right out. Stop it now.

And fuck, I hate having to make posts like this. Don't make me put on the moderator hat. It's itchy, uncomfortable and it doesn't fit well.

NB, although I don't like your tone, I think it's a reasonable enough question.

I can't give you the "official" answer, because I wasn't around when Jake laid out the main rulebook. However, I imagine the answer is something along the lines of Steven's comment plus a little "because that's how women get portrayed in Fantasy because the audience is mostly guys and get over it".

You'll also notice, that most of the thus clad women get shown elsewhere in the book dead, which is a subtle way of saying "don't dress this way in Weyrth or you're for it". See, it's a public service.

And the last answer is basically along the lines of "because we like that". Doesn't make anyone sexist, mysoginists, wife bashers, or anything of the like. Just makes us guys who like looking at girls. You know, human.

Brian.

One: I am a gay man, and I get thoroughly disgusted time and time again by seeing half-naked women with their tits hanging out in every single fantasy game and supplement. For a game like Exalted, which is based on anime, this is not only appropriate, it fits like a glove. But for a game like TROS, where the combat system is as lethal as it is, a female adventurer wandering around with her boobs and belly exposed is going to get gutted and left in a ditch. I am personally disgusted by seeing women again and again being objectified as "purty gurls with big boobs and a nice butt." For fuck's sake, the art in a gameline should support the themes of the game, and wandering around practically naked is a good way to get skewered.

Two: No, it is NOT attempting to emulate pulp sword and sorcery. If THAT were the case, the rules for combat would be slanted in favor of the heroes. Conan was a larger than life hero, and he faced things FAR more deadly that a thrust to his guts on a regular basis. In terms of TROS, Conan's bravily stupid antics would have resulted in his death quite early on.

Three: I am not trolling, but anyone who thinks I am can politely go fuck himself. I just lost my father, and am I not allowed anger at a crappy product that arrived on the very day my dad was buried? Fuck you. Just ban me, for fuck's sake.

--I guess everyone here likes to wack off to boobies in gaming products NB

NB wrote:

I am personally disgusted by seeing women again and again being objectified as "purty gurls with big boobs and a nice butt."

I am a gay man

. But for a game like TROS, where the combat system is as lethal as it is, a female adventurer wandering around with her boobs and belly exposed is going to get gutted and left in a ditch... the art in a gameline should support the themes of the game, and wandering around practically naked is a good way to get skewered.

This is a game about personal conflict, moral dilemma, the brevity of life, and the search for answers.

Wow. I honestly didn´t expect to send my first post on this Forum to a thread like this. Oh well...

Pvt Kastro

Two: No, it is NOT attempting to emulate pulp sword and sorcery. If THAT were the case, the rules for combat would be slanted in favor of the heroes. Conan was a larger than life hero, and he faced things FAR more deadly that a thrust to his guts on a regular basis. In terms of TROS, Conan's bravily stupid antics would have resulted in his death quite early on.

I don't think anyone really cares about your sexual orientation here.

here's the thing NB.

There is no male equivalent to boobs, unless you count manboobs, and unlike chickboobs, those aren't really appreciated by anybody.
The penis / boob analogy won't work, because the opposite of penis is vagina.

it must get really tiring for you, being a gay man... having to walk around in the real world and see women wearing clothes that accentuate their breasts.

you have my sympathy.

oh, and I have yet to see any chicks with their pussies hanging out in TRoS, much less any RPG book.

Okay Nero, I'm gonna try to help you here, because you seem to be missing the clues that people are trying to give you. I am not trying to be condescending. If it comes off that way I am sorry, that is not what was intended.

To be blunt, leave the attitude at the door. That's all we ask. You seem to have a problem doing that.

You can't seem to make any of your critisms constructive, only insulting. I'm not, and I expect, neither is Brian nor Jake (maybe it should be Jake and Brian...pecking order you know!), asking you to not be critical of the game. I am just asking that when you are, to try to be less agressive about it. People here are more than willing to hash out things with you to discuss your problems with the game in a non-agressive format to hopefully come to an amiacable solution, but if you lead off with attitude you will get it back in spades and you seem suprised by that. As an example this whole thread started with you having a problem with the pics of scantily clad women and though you do make valid points there are hidden by your "bad" attitude.

Possibly, a more constructive way of asking that question would be.
"Does anyone else here have a problem with the pictures of the scantily clad women in this game, it really tends to bother me because that is all you see in fantasy games?"

Now that may have gotten you a better response, maybe not, but to me it seems less agressive and less attitude geared.

I hope this helps.


Mr. Grimm

I'm looking at my rulebook and here are the illustrations as I see them.....

p2 a guy with no shirt on petting a dog
p8 a guy with no shirt on
p10 a FULLY dressed woman cleaning her sword
p15 a woman showing cleavage and some thigh
p34 a woman in bikini top and slit skirt
p47 a guy in a loin cloth
p60 a shirtless guy
p63 2 shirtless dudes
p67 a woman in a tanktop showing middrift
p74 another middrift showing woman
p75 a shirtless dude
p 78 a man in a loin cloth
p79 a dead woman in bikini top and low cut pants
p82 a woman with the classic chainmail bikini
p 87 a FULLY armored woman
p88 a guy in a loin cloth
p93 a woman in a tube top
p95 a woman showing cleavage
p102 a fully clothed woman
p105 a fully clothed woman
p110 a fully clothed woman
p119 a woman with lots of cleavage
p120 a fully dressed woman
p130 a topless woman, but with her hair covering her nipples
p136 a shadowed naked woman
p142 a fully armored woman
p144 a shirtless man
p150 a fully dressed woman
p154 a fully dressed woman
p162 a shirtless man
p164 a shirtless man
p176 a shirtless man
p181 a fully dressed woman
p183 a fully dressed woman
p186 a fully dressed woman
p205 a woman in a chainmail bikini
p208 a half naked dead woman
p210 a woman showing some middrift and shoulder
p211 an armored woman
p218 2 fully clothed women
This is a 263 page rulebook.
Totals....
Half naked women.......12
Naked women.......2 (maybe)
clothed women......14
half naked men......12 (see half naked woman above)
I may have somehow miscounted.

Nero's Boot wrote: One: I am a gay man

Nero's Boot wrote: For a game like Exalted, which is based on anime, this is not only appropriate, it fits like a glove.

Nero's Boot wrote: But for a game like TROS, where the combat system is as lethal as it is, a female adventurer wandering around with her boobs and belly exposed is going to get gutted and left in a ditch.

Nero's Boot wrote: I am personally disgusted by seeing women again and again being objectified as "purty gurls with big boobs and a nice butt."

Nero's Boot wrote: For fuck's sake, the art in a gameline should support the themes of the game, and wandering around practically naked is a good way to get skewered.

Nero's Boot wrote: Two: No, it is NOT attempting to emulate pulp sword and sorcery. If THAT were the case, the rules for combat would be slanted in favor of the heroes. Conan was a larger than life hero, and he faced things FAR more deadly that a thrust to his guts on a regular basis. In terms of TROS, Conan's bravily stupid antics would have resulted in his death quite early on.

Nero's Boot wrote: Three: I am not trolling, but anyone who thinks I am can politely go fuck himself.

Nero's Boot wrote: I just lost my father, and am I not allowed anger at a crappy product that arrived on the very day my dad was buried?

Nero's Boot wrote: Fuck you. Just ban me, for fuck's sake.

Nero's Boot wrote: --I guess everyone here likes to wack off to boobies in gaming products NB

This thread is closed. No more posts.

NB: you're entitled to your opinions and I wont censor them or ban you since we don't do that here (Besides which, at this point I personally suspect you're trying to get banned so you can have something else to complain about).

Everyone else: lay off, you're not helping.

Everyone including NB: I have had enough of the swearing and the insulting. Stop it. This has always been, and mostly remains to be an extremely friendly and welcoming forum. We simply don't have flame wars here. Posting an inflamitory comment doesn't make a flame war. Responding in like to one does. It's not necessary, so don't do it.

And stop making me moderate. You're not 12 anymore and I 'aint your daddy.

Brian.