Hi. I have been lurking here and there in this forum for some time but this is the first time I have decided to post something. I recently made a bit of a breakthrough with a game system that I have been plugging away at and I thought that this might be a good time to get some feedback on it. The game is called Capes & Cowls (that is my working title at any rate) and it is a superhero rpg. I outline my intent in the opening few paragraphs of the document so rather than repeat them here I will just let those who are interested read it at their leisure. For the sake of simplicity, I have typed up the file as a Word document which can easily be read and downloaded by most people. If anyone is interested in reading it and has difficulty with Word files then by all means let me know and I will endeavor to write it up in HTML or something similar. Of course, since I am asking for feedback, it goes without saying that you are all welcome to comment or critique it as per your whim. I have uploaded the file to the following URL. . .

http://www.geocities.com/winterknights/capesandcowls.doc

Thanks and enjoy!

Glenn Hall

Of course, since I am asking for feedback, it goes without saying that you are all welcome to comment or critique it as per your whim. I have uploaded the file to the following URL. . .

http://www.geocities.com/winterknights/capesandcowls.doc

Tony Irwin wrote:

Of course, since I am asking for feedback, it goes without saying that you are all welcome to comment or critique it as per your whim. I have uploaded the file to the following URL. . .

http://www.geocities.com/winterknights/capesandcowls.doc

Hey Glen, I couldn't access the your site...

Sigh. Thanks to everyone who pointed out that geocities likes to be difficult. I had tested the file to make sure it downloaded properly but I suspect that geocities embedded a cookie on my computer or some such which would allow me to access the file but not others. I believe that I have solved the problem so try this HTML link first and just do the ol' Save As to get the file.

http://www.geocities.com/winterknights/

And, if geocities still does not like you. . .

http://WinterKnights.tripod.com/candc.htm

As far as specific areas for feedback goes, I guess that I am first and foremost looking for any reactions or comments in general. More specifically, opinions on the Action Dice pool mechanic (the great equalizer for superheroes) would be most welcome. Also, if anyone spots any major flaws or areas which I totally neglected to cover then by all means let me know. And, of course, if you still cannot access the file then I will whip it up in HTML. Thanks for your patience.

Glenn Hall

Working fine now.

Mike

Glenn,

I'm going to confess, my main interest in this game is selfish curiosity. I've been begging for a cool indie-designed supers game for quite some time, and nothing's quite fit the bill. I liked some of what Clinton was doing with Panels. I could see where Doc Midnight was going with Hyperbole, but it just doesn't click for me. There's The Code, which is definitely cool, but all the rest are point-based nightmares.

So like any good game designer, I wrote my own game. And I wanted to see how your game compared.

I will say, the problems you have with existing games are pretty much the problems I have too. And I agree with some of your solutions. Some I don't.

The A-Numero Uno Cool Thing you got going for you in this game is your In-Character and Out-of-Character designations. I like what they mean, and I suspect they'll work okay in play, although I think I would change the terminology (these particular terms are already entrenched in rpg vernacular...I'm sure you could do better). For the record, it's this sort of shared understanding of character that I was shooting for in my own design, so of course I'd like it.

The Action Dice mechanic seems like it will work, but I'd need to play it to know. It definitely solves some problems. I'm not sure if it will create others or not.

The Hero Points mechanics will work, because we've seen them work in other games too. That's not a crack; I use this sort of thing all the time (in my own supers game, even). I'd like to see it do more, though. And I don't really see why you have to wait until after the game to earn Hero Points. Too often games do too much either before play starts, or after it's finished. The play is the thing, and the immediacy of an award given as play proceeds can do a lot to affect tempo and pacing.

I kind of like the GM's die bit - the roll that proceeds each turn of combat - but it's slanted towards the players. So are the actual costs of using Hero Points for that matter. That's all well and good - the PCs are the heroes afterall - but remember that a hero is measured by the adversity he faces.

I hate the initiative roll, and I hate the way combat turns are ordered. I guess "hate" is a pretty strong word, but man, it's so old school. I guess this is one of those preference things, but really, you could do better.

Damage and how it's dealt with seems kind of clunky. And even given it's clunkiness, it fails to properly address certain things. For instance, at one point you basically instruct your readers to disregard the damage rules when they don't make sense, imploring them to fall back upon their shared understanding of the characters.

The World Creation stuff, as you noted in your text, is borrowed from the esteemed Mr. Sorensen. I like the dials thing as a sort of social contract metaphor, to get the players thinking about the specifics of their setting and whatnot. However, regardless of what dial is set to where, the game is going to play the same. There should be some mechanics here...bennies should cost differing amounts of HPs, damage should behave differently, etc. Or maybe you could streamline your mechanics somehow, to take advantage of the understanding these dials create in the player about the game they're playing.

Now I'm gonna' tell you what Vincent Baker told me about my supers game, which is what it's missing. It doesn't have a structure. It needs some rules for the GM, something that tells him how to use to game, and that really drives home the feeling that you're in a comic book. There are some neat ideas floating around here; embrace them and you could have something pretty cool on your hands.

- Scott

Hey Glenn,

Dial Settings

This is the part where you define your game setting. Some of these dials are of an off/on variety while others allow for varying degrees. There are six different dials that need to be defined and each of them is described in turn.

Spectra-Analyzer (Monochrome / 4-Color / True-Color)
Comics Code Meter (G / PG / R / NC-17)
Killswitch (Off / On)
Weirdness Tank (Empty / Low / Half / High / Full)
Laugh-O-Matic (Serious / Satirical / Witty / Wacky / Insane)
Cliche Blender (Pulse / Blend / Puree)

There is one other thing to consider when resolving an action. Any action taken by a character may either be considered In-Character (IC) or Out-of-Character (OC). An IC action is something that you would expect a character to do or be able to do. When Batman tries to analyze some chemical residue that he found at a crime scene, that is definitely IC. When Batman tries to sing for an audience that falls into the realm of OC. Batman picking up a car and throwing it is not only OC but will also be rated as an Impossible action by the GM. For an IC action the character may use as many AD as they wish, up to their normal limit. For an OC action a character only gets to roll 1. Notice how in our above example Batman has absolutely no chance to throw the car because the most he can ever roll is a single 6.

Scott,

Thanks for the comments and insight.

I'm going to confess, my main interest in this game is selfish curiosity. I've been begging for a cool indie-designed supers game for quite some time, and nothing's quite fit the bill. I liked some of what Clinton was doing with Panels. I could see where Doc Midnight was going with Hyperbole, but it just doesn't click for me. There's The Code, which is definitely cool, but all the rest are point-based nightmares.

So like any good game designer, I wrote my own game. And I wanted to see how your game compared.

The A-Numero Uno Cool Thing you got going for you in this game is your In-Character and Out-of-Character designations. I like what they mean, and I suspect they'll work okay in play, although I think I would change the terminology (these particular terms are already entrenched in rpg vernacular...I'm sure you could do better). For the record, it's this sort of shared understanding of character that I was shooting for in my own design, so of course I'd like it.

The Action Dice mechanic seems like it will work, but I'd need to play it to know. It definitely solves some problems. I'm not sure if it will create others or not.

The Hero Points mechanics will work, because we've seen them work in other games too. That's not a crack; I use this sort of thing all the time (in my own supers game, even). I'd like to see it do more, though. And I don't really see why you have to wait until after the game to earn Hero Points. Too often games do too much either before play starts, or after it's finished. The play is the thing, and the immediacy of an award given as play proceeds can do a lot to affect tempo and pacing.

I kind of like the GM's die bit - the roll that proceeds each turn of combat - but it's slanted towards the players. So are the actual costs of using Hero Points for that matter. That's all well and good - the PCs are the heroes afterall - but remember that a hero is measured by the adversity he faces.

I hate the initiative roll, and I hate the way combat turns are ordered. I guess "hate" is a pretty strong word, but man, it's so old school. I guess this is one of those preference things, but really, you could do better.

Damage and how it's dealt with seems kind of clunky. And even given it's clunkiness, it fails to properly address certain things. For instance, at one point you basically instruct your readers to disregard the damage rules when they don't make sense, imploring them to fall back upon their shared understanding of the characters.

The World Creation stuff, as you noted in your text, is borrowed from the esteemed Mr. Sorensen. I like the dials thing as a sort of social contract metaphor, to get the players thinking about the specifics of their setting and whatnot. However, regardless of what dial is set to where, the game is going to play the same. There should be some mechanics here...bennies should cost differing amounts of HPs, damage should behave differently, etc. Or maybe you could streamline your mechanics somehow, to take advantage of the understanding these dials create in the player about the game they're playing.

Now I'm gonna' tell you what Vincent Baker told me about my supers game, which is what it's missing. It doesn't have a structure. It needs some rules for the GM, something that tells him how to use to game, and that really drives home the feeling that you're in a comic book. There are some neat ideas floating around here; embrace them and you could have something pretty cool on your hands.

Tony,

Thanks for the comments and suggestions.

Like Scott, I'd ask if you've maybe considered tying these into your system? Say like the GM gives bonus dice to actions that are in tune with where the dials are set. Even handing out d4s to roll along with their d6 action dice might be enough to reward players without unbalancing your action dice resource management system.

I wanted to ask you about this - do you see the game as a vehicle for playing existing comic book heros, in which case its kind of straightforward to determine IC/OC - just argue and quote issues at each other for 15 min ;-) Or will players be inventing their own heros? If its the latter then you might need some really tight character creation rules that can specify just what characters can and can't do (or at least nail down their style for approaching lots of different problems) otherwise it could be really tough trying to figure out whether something is IC/OC for a PC in the middle of the game.

Glenn,

Regarding Initiative and Damage: I really like keeping combat to as few die rolls as possible. You know, it is one of those preference things, but I don't see the point of doing with three die rolls what you can do with one.

To that end, I'll leave your Damage mechanic alone for now, since I don't have a better suggestion just yet, because it doesn't already require a separate roll (until you hit negatives, anyway), and because I haven't played it yet to know how it will work. I am familiar with how Mutants & Masterminds works, and I do sorta like that mechanic, but it would mean another die roll.

Initiative is tricky. All you really need is a method for organizing who says what, and when (this all you really need for any resolution mechanic, of course). This could be anything - a die roll, a flat stat, GM fiat, etc. I'm not quite sure how I would do it with your game. You could go with a single die roll to determine initiative for the entire combat (maybe with an opportunity to re-roll your initiative on subsequent turns, but only by spending Hero Points). Or maybe I'd just say whoever has the most Hero Points goes first (or maybe whoever has spent the most Hero Points thus far in the game, which might give the villains a big advantage), and then adjust for in-game reality, like Speedsters and whatnot. My point, and it's the same with the Damage rules, is that there's a lot of unexplored territory here mechanically.

With the Setting Dials, my suggestion is to expand upon what you've already done, and use them to help define what is In-Character and Out-of-Character. Like I said, this is the coolest thing for me. It's about a shared understanding of world and character, which is essential to a satisfactory play experience. The easiest example that comes to mind is character death: In a Four-Coor game it would be absolutely OC to declare a killing blow against an enemy. You could still do it, but game-wise, you'd be limited to one Action Die. I'd go through the Dials in this way, connecting the various tropes to specific kinds of IC or OC behaviors.

And moving on from there, I want to comment on some of Tony's concerns. He's right, of course...it would be much easier to run established characters through this game, so long as all of the players were familiar with those characters. But even that's no guarantee - try to run Batman in this game with a player who's familiar with the comics and a GM who's only seen the movies, and you'll run into problems. What you need - and I think you're on the right track - is a chargen system that establishes the look and feel and mood of the character in each participant's mind. I'd use everything at your disposal to get to this point - the Setting Dials, Origin stories, character artwork (especially character artwork). And ultimately, because no two people are going to exactly agree upon how a character should be portrayed - a mechanic that lets the player trump the GM when the GM says something is OC, and the player is adamant that it isn't. In fact, you may already have that mechanic - a player can spend Hero Points to interpret and add powers on the fly, which might just do the trick.

Well , that was a bit rambly. I blame it on my lack of sleep.

Best,
Scott

I like the subjective judgement for difficulties thing. It's awesome. It allows for unique characters without having to calculate a single stat. You get a Big Thumbs Up!

I like the subjective judgement for difficulties thing. It's awesome. It allows for unique characters without having to calculate a single stat. You get a Big Thumbs Up!

Scott,

Regarding Initiative and Damage: I really like keeping combat to as few die rolls as possible. You know, it is one of those preference things, but I don't see the point of doing with three die rolls what you can do with one.

To that end, I'll leave your Damage mechanic alone for now, since I don't have a better suggestion just yet, because it doesn't already require a separate roll (until you hit negatives, anyway), and because I haven't played it yet to know how it will work. I am familiar with how Mutants & Masterminds works, and I do sorta like that mechanic, but it would mean another die roll.

You could go with a single die roll to determine initiative for the entire combat (maybe with an opportunity to re-roll your initiative on subsequent turns, but only by spending Hero Points).

With the Setting Dials, my suggestion is to expand upon what you've already done, and use them to help define what is In-Character and Out-of-Character.

I think this game has the best core mechanic (the Action Dice/Hero Points and the OC/IC designation) for a supers game I have seen yet. Somebody FINALLY nailed down a good way to easily capture the (core, anyway) FEEL of a comic book. This game says 'Play me!'

Enough with the praise. I hope you don't mind if I give you some feedback and suggestions. These ideas are mostly chrome plating, really, nothing to do with the core mechanics, but you may find them helpful.

- Damage mechanic: I like the earlier suggestions of using the number of AD you have lost as a target number for an action check (or whatever you call it). It's binary- you stay conscious as long as you make the roll until you get to whatever level is unconsciousness (was it -6 AD?). The AD system is so simple to read that one extra die roll is not bad at all.

- Character Creation options: This doesn't bother me a lot, but it seems that characters are mechanically identical, at least at creation. How about some options?
- Advantages: You could allow something called Signature Moves or whatever you wish. They would basically give the character a unique maneuver or ability they could use once per game that would let them do something extraordinary or break the rules in some way (like recovering AD, or automatic success at some action, for example). A good example would be when the Thing yell’s “It’s Clobberin’ Time” – he could get a bonus when fighting thugs, for instance. You could also allow characters to have Specialties that give them an extra AD when attempting specific actions (or adjusting the target number/result). Both of these would be optional and could be paid for in some way (maybe costing HP or giving up starting AD?). The only problem I see is with the Specialties- this might not fit in with the style of your CC or may seem tacked-on.
- Motivation: This would fit in with expanding the CC rules to use the dial settings. Motivation is of course what makes the hero tick and why he is a hero. It would not cost anything; everyone has it. It is a two-edged sword- you can invoke it to get a bonus, but the GM will also use it against you (it can be enforced using the OC rule). Frex: Batman’s Motivation is Obsessed with Bringing Criminals to Justice. He could use this to get a bonus when interrogating the Joker’s thugs, but he may be so focused he may be oblivious to some other threat (reacting to the threat is an OC action).
- Drawbacks: Basically heroes can take Complications, which are built-in plot hooks that enforce the ‘super-powered soap opera’ aspect. You have to have at least one, and you can get extra ones to get more HP or AD. Complications can be invoked automatically when the player fails a roll.

- Negative Hero Points: In addition to the villains getting VP when the heroes use their HP, it may be a good idea to give the villains VP when the hero does something OC, or just acts otherwise un-heroic or stupid.

- Enforcing the Genre: There are some things you can add that would help reinforce the genre you are aiming for.
- Sound effects and dialog: Give the heroes extra HP or an extra AD if the players provide sound effects and cool hero dialog for a scene.
- Writer’s Favor: Maybe there is a way to represent characters that the comic book writer likes more than the other characters beyond the AD (like Grant Morrison writing JLA- it often seemed that Batman was his favorite character). I can’t think of how you would either determine Writer’s Favor or what it would give the hero, though.

Hi Glenn,

Did some thread-searching for you. Regarding the principles underlying so-called "initiative" and related stuff, check out:

The four steps of action (fundamental)
What is IIEC?
Disruptive and/or stupid IIEE question
Two little dice, so much time
On the time of narration (very technical)

Best,
Ron

Phillip,

I think this game has the best core mechanic (the Action Dice/Hero Points and the OC/IC designation) for a supers game I have seen yet. Somebody FINALLY nailed down a good way to easily capture the (core, anyway) FEEL of a comic book. This game says 'Play me!'

Enough with the praise. I hope you don't mind if I give you some feedback and suggestions. These ideas are mostly chrome plating, really, nothing to do with the core mechanics, but you may find them helpful.

- Damage mechanic: I like the earlier suggestions of using the number of AD you have lost as a target number for an action check (or whatever you call it). It's binary- you stay conscious as long as you make the roll until you get to whatever level is unconsciousness (was it -6 AD?). The AD system is so simple to read that one extra die roll is not bad at all.

- Character Creation options: This doesn't bother me a lot, but it seems that characters are mechanically identical, at least at creation. How about some options?

- Advantages: You could allow something called Signature Moves or whatever you wish.

- Motivation: Motivation is of course what makes the hero tick and why he is a hero. It would not cost anything; everyone has it. It is a two-edged sword- you can invoke it to get a bonus, but the GM will also use it against you (it can be enforced using the OC rule).

- Drawbacks: Basically heroes can take Complications, which are built-in plot hooks that enforce the ‘super-powered soap opera’ aspect. You have to have at least one, and you can get extra ones to get more HP or AD. Complications can be invoked automatically when the player fails a roll.

- Negative Hero Points: In addition to the villains getting VP when the heroes use their HP, it may be a good idea to give the villains VP when the hero does something OC, or just acts otherwise un-heroic or stupid.

- Sound effects and dialog: Give the heroes extra HP or an extra AD if the players provide sound effects and cool hero dialog for a scene.

- Writer’s Favor: Maybe there is a way to represent characters that the comic book writer likes more than the other characters beyond the AD (like Grant Morrison writing JLA- it often seemed that Batman was his favorite character). I can’t think of how you would either determine Writer’s Favor or what it would give the hero, though.

Ron,

Thanks for the leads. I will be sifting through them momentarily. I have a couple of other game ideas that I am working on bit-by-bit so not only might they help with Capes & Cowls but possibly with some of my other ideas as well. Much appreciated.

Glenn

Hi Glenn,
Did some thread-searching for you. Regarding the principles underlying so-called "initiative" and related stuff, check out:
The four steps of action (fundamental)
What is IIEC?
Disruptive and/or stupid IIEE question
Two little dice, so much time
On the time of narration (very technical)
Best,
Ron

Hi, all. I have done a small update of Capes & Cowls and uploaded it to the same links as before. To save you the trouble of looking, use either of these. . .

http://www.geocities.com/winterknights/

http://WinterKnights.tripod.com/candc.htm

Most of the text (still in rough form) is unchanged. The main areas that are new or modified include a brief Introduction, Damage, and World Creation. I actually removed the Settings Dials, mostly because I feel bad about using Jared's material, and instead re-wrote World Creation so that it worked like Team and Hero Creation (ie. a series of questions).

So were these changes an improvement or am I heading for the depths of black abyss. . . ?

Glenn

Glad you liked the ideas; I was inspired to work on my own supers RPG (yeah, right- EVERYBODY has their own RPG nowadays...). By Writer's Favor I meant that it could be a rotating role passes to the player with the most 'best roleplaying' bonuses but is sometimes more evenly distributed to avoid favoritism. After seeing your comments, I realize the concept embodies favoratism, which doesn't work in group RPGs, so it should probably be scrapped as an idea.

hermes wrote: Cool. A lot of your suggestions, not to mention the ones made by others, are the sort of things that I had seen as being a part of the game already, but not tied so closely into the game mechanics. I saw them as being things that were essentially built-into the genre. Since the game is tailored to the genre, I suppose it does make perfect sense to write them directly into the rules.

hermes,
Something else that occured to me. Perhaps you should clarify how ADs are split up. The example you give is (paraphrased) "Spidey may use all 10 ADs to save his poor Aunt May from falling". But what else in that instance would Spiderman split his ADs on? If it is in the heat of combat, it is a little more clear, but what about non-combat (isolated) challenges the heroes face? One way to do this is specify splitting the ADs among (for lack of better terms) Active and Contingency actions. In combat, the split could be main opponent vs. suprise/unexpected attacks (or, attack vs. dodge, if you wish); in a series of related challenges (a "scene") it could be the main objective vs. unexpected occurences / secondary objectives. Changing the split can be per round in combat, or more fixed- you could assess a penalty for moving AD (say, it costs 2 Active AD to add 1 Contingency AD, or assess a HP cost). The Contingency AD could also be used as backup in case of failure or unexpected consequences. Frex, HeroMan has to disarm a bomb. He has 8 AD. He allocates 5 AD to the disarm attempt (Active) and keeps 3 in reserve (Contingency). If he disarms the bomb, no problem. If he fails, he has 3 AD to get out of the way real quick... Going back to the falling Aunt May example, Spidey may not want to commit 10AD, because Doc Ock may be lurking in the shadows, waiting to strike at a vulnerable moment... In fact, this allows for another Signature Move from the previous discussion- Spidey could have Spider Sense as a Signature Move, which lets him shift one or two AD from Active to Contingency with no penalty.