Topic: Shades?
Started by: Garbanzo
Started on: 9/5/2003
Board: Burning Wheel
On 9/5/2003 at 9:20pm, Garbanzo wrote:
Shades?
Hey, all.
Over in the thread called Ken Hite Reviews Burning Wheel,
Tony Irwin wrote: I was really surprised there was no mention of how Shades contribute to character building and advancement. Its the first time I've really seen a way whereby you can create a starting party with tough experienced Aragorns and naive (but very quick to learn) Hobbit types in the same group. Really struck me as genius.
I'll admit to not following this forum too carefully, but I've never heard this mentioned at all. Anyone care to give me the quick-and-dirty version?
Thanks,
-Matt
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 7854
On 9/5/2003 at 9:58pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Shades?
Shade is a concept that allows weak to strong to be aligned on the same number scale without needing to add a ton of additional number. It increases effectiveness without increaseing number of dice so if your peasant is rolling 3 dice you don't need 35 to roll for the dragon. Since Ken seemed to have a bit of an issue with the "grainyness" as he called it, I suspect he didn't grok the concept fully.
It works by changing the Target number of the dice. For a normal "black" mundane human skill you have a set target number. For a heroic level "grey" I'm Legolas shooting a bow skill you have an easier target number for all rolls. For a demi god like I'm Hercules using my strength "white" roll you have an easier target number yet.
Thus, even if two characters are rolling the same number of dice the lighter shade has a distinct advantage.
On 9/6/2003 at 11:03pm, Garbanzo wrote:
RE: Shades?
Ah! Thanks, Ralph.
The quote from Tony that got me started was about how characters of different power levels can coexist. Does this just refer to the mechanics - that is, that it can be done without making a headache at resolution time - or is there a flip side (a la Buffy) that differently-empowers darker shaded characters?
Thanks,
-Matt
On 9/7/2003 at 6:10am, Valamir wrote:
RE: Shades?
Strictly mechanics if I'm understanding your question. Its also important to note that the shade is by skill not by character, so Legolas is likely all black except for his bow and maybe 1 or 2 elfy things, Gimli is likely all black except for his axe and maybe 1 or 2 dwarfy things. Humans are almost always all black except for the truly legendary heroes.
On 9/8/2003 at 2:36pm, Tony Irwin wrote:
RE: Shades?
Garbanzo wrote: Ah! Thanks, Ralph.
The quote from Tony that got me started was about how characters of different power levels can coexist. Does this just refer to the mechanics - that is, that it can be done without making a headache at resolution time - or is there a flip side (a la Buffy) that differently-empowers darker shaded characters?
Thanks,
-Matt
Hi Matt,
I better clarify that I haven't played Burning Wheel yet, just ran sample characters through combats and read the books through a few times. I hope some BW afficiandos will correct me if I'm wrong about this but what made the Shades system really ring some bells with me was the way it ties into character advancement.
At character creation you could buy stuff with a White Shade (which makes you highly effective and hints at your character having years of training and experience), but you'll progress very slowly - you'll need to seek out extraordinary challenges and tests in order to advance at all.
On the other hand if you go for the Black Shade you're much less effective, but its a lot easier to advance. Everything is a challenge to you, and so everything is a valuable learning experience.
This seemed a great way to achieve having old vets along side fresh young things in a starting party (like the fellowship setup - Gandalf is mega powerful but doesn't really grow or change compared to Pippin and the other one who are constantly developing in effectiveness). In other games I've really struggled with the idea of how do you create the "Old Man" character. Like a Gandalf or Druss the Legend. I don't want to spend 5 years playing a character to that point, I want to start with a grizzled, powerful old chestnut at the end of his career.
My understanding of BW is that it handles this really well, you can have powerful characters at the start, but the pay off is in very slow advancement.
Have I got this right?
On 9/8/2003 at 5:01pm, taepoong wrote:
RE: Shades?
I will try to explain Shades as simply as possible.
Shades determine your base Target Number on a D6 for that Skill or Stat. Black=4, Grey=3, and White=2. A PC with a G4 bow rolls the same amount of dice as a PC with a B4 bow. It's just easier for the Grey-skilled character to succeed.
Shades don't effect advancement at all. All shades advance the same. Ease of advancement depends on the Exponent of the skill or stat. The lower the Exponent, the easier it is to advance and vice versa.
During character generaton ("burning"), buying a Grey or White shade costs a lot and comes from the same pool as your Stats or Skills. So if you buy a grey shade for a stat skill, you will be starting with a much lower exponent than a person who sticks with black:
Black-shaded PC: Per B4, Will B4, Agility B4, Speed B4, Power B4, Forte B4
Grey-shaded PC: Per B4, Will B4, Agility B2, Speed B3, Power G3, Forte B3
You see, even one Grey Stat will make your starting PC weak compared to a Black-shaded PC. The same effect happens if you buy a grey skill.
It's actually a nicely balanced system.
On 9/8/2003 at 8:17pm, Tony Irwin wrote:
RE: Shades?
Damn, I got that completely wrong. That's the second board this week - I might as well make it a hat-trick and make up some rules I "read" for MLWM.
Thanks for clarifying that Taepoong - I've got the book in front of me just now and just can't fathom where I got my whacko ideas from.
Tony (going back to school) Irwin
On 9/9/2003 at 4:38pm, abzu wrote:
RE: Shades?
yeah, i actually designed the system so that characters with a better potential (gray and white shades) would have a relatively easier time advancing.
Their numbers and requirements are the same as mundane shade folks, but they are going to have a lot less failures on the way.
It made NO sense to me to have geniuses advancing more slowly than mundane folk. (the phenomenon that tony mentioned above). It's just not the case in life and learning!
-L
On 9/9/2003 at 4:41pm, Lxndr wrote:
RE: Shades?
In other words, the aging man at the end of his experience would probably have tons of black skills and attributes, while the gifted novice would have some low-level greys and whites?
On 9/9/2003 at 5:00pm, abzu wrote:
RE: Shades?
In other words, the aging man at the end of his experience would probably have tons of black skills and attributes, while the gifted novice would have some low-level greys and whites?
Yes.
The young genius may only have a G3 in Musical Composition where the Salieri might have a B7 at the end of his career. Both could work together to create music, or they could compete. In a competition Salieri is going to beat the young genius most times, but more often that you think Salieri is going to get two successes and the young genius will easily achieve three successes. A coup!
And what else is going on under that competition? The young genius is earning a difficult or challenging test for each competition he "ties" or loses. Routine tests are earned for the ones he wins! (Yes, he's learning more from losing.) After five competitions at the most, or three competitions and a little practice, our young genius has a G4 skill and is beating and tieing Salieri much more often. Six tests later, our young genius has a G5 skill and he is beating Salieri at nearly every turn.
During all of this Salieri, being an accomplished and well-practiced composer, has earned no tests for his trouble. His skill is too high to benefit from such rank competition! But as the young master improves, so does Salieri start learning a thing or two from him. If he can swallow his pride, that is!
(just an example, not meant to be historically accurate for all you music buffs).
-luke
On 9/10/2003 at 8:05am, Tony Irwin wrote:
Lightbulb
Thanks abzu - I get it now, I had it the wrong way round. So for say a Fellowship set up, The Aragorns, Boromirs and Gandalfs start out extremely competent in terms of having lots of varied skills at black shades. Hobbits start of with just a couple of skills at white. The hobbits will advance much faster because they've got better odds even with the same dice. I had the shades back to front, the wrong way round earlier up this thread.
On 9/10/2003 at 3:22pm, abzu wrote:
RE: Shades?
Yes, sort of.
But I always thought of it as the other way around. Gandalf, Legolas and Aragorn are the ones with the Heroic or Supernatural abilities. The hobbits, by their nature, are quite Mundane. And it is this very reason that they are overlooked by Sauron, Saruman and all the rest.
And it is only a small, barely noticeable trait that allows them to do what they do. Not a set of potentially ridiculous numbers.
just my 2ยข
-Luke