Well, I just found out that the name for my wrestling game Kayfabe has already been used for a recently published trade paperback.

Now I have to come up with a new name and I have no clue where to start and was hopeing you could all throw some suggestions at me.

In case you don't know already, my game is about professional wrestling and deals a lot with the behind the scenes aspect of the industry and the advancement of a starting promotion and it's wrestlers.

there are a few other treads about it floating around if you want to know more.

Tossin' & Squirmin'
Let the Bodies Hit the Floor
Turnbuckle: The Wrasslin'
Into The Fray
Pugilistic Power Play
Meatheads Go Melee!

Hmm, most of those are rather silly... Not that I knew how to pronounce Kayfabe anyways! I kinda like Into The Fray...

Sean

As the Buckle Turns

Okay here are a few.

1. Raw Power
2. The Mill
3. The Hero Factory
4. Paper Tigers (Belts of Gold)

Here's my one cent:

1. Painfully Fake: Roleplaying Wrestling From The Inside


Galfraxas (Tim)

On 2001-10-22 13:49, JSDiamond wrote:

4. Paper Tigers (Belts of Gold)

oops. wrong button. post below

[ This Message was edited by: pblock on 2001-10-23 12:47 ]

On 2001-10-23 00:09, pblock wrote:
I like Turnbuckle. It's simple. It's a fun word to say. It's especially fun to say just before you clean someone's clock.

"Turnbuckle!" I shout. And then I knock them out.

It's tough to come up with a name that is not already trademarked by the pro-wrestling industry (Jacked, Hardcore)

Hoped that's some help.

I really like Turnbuckle.

"TURNBUCKLE!" < smack > < thud >

(BTW What is a turnbuckle?)

A Turnbuckle is the thingy that attaches to each corner of the ring ropes and is then padded so you can smack an opponents dome into it without tearing his face off. :smile: It keeps the ropes taut and away from the infmaous Steel Posts as well.

Really? That's a dopey name for a game.

Could be worse. Could be Fingernails: The Biting

WFCW

World Federation of Championship Wrestling

Or some other name for the fictitious organization.

Mike

I like that direction, Mike. I like it honey bunches of oats!

Let's see.

The word "world" or a word with a similar meaning usually figures into it, even if the organization doesn't go outside Des Moines. (Intercontinental, International, Global)

And organization tag is often included to add a sense of being bonefide. I mean, it's a "federation" That's heavy stuff. Not just a buch of guys in silly outfits beating the snot out of each other.

"Wrestling" is often used, but there are probably a few synonyms that can be used instead.

A buzzword can enter into it like "extreme" or "hardcore" but these things are silly. Eh, screw it. We are talking about pro-wrestling. Silly is oft unavoidable.


I suppose you could make a chart that would make a random name for a wrestling organization out of this.

Global Association of Grapplers

GAG

phew!
no offense, but I HATED kayfabe!

keep in mind, you want wresting fans to pick this up...

hmm.

how about...

The Ring
Canvas Warriors
Pay-Per-View Legends

I'll try to think of more.

unheilig.

Well, nothing has struck my fancy yet.

I was thinking "Lord or the Rings", but I think that may be taken :smile: maybe "Lords of the Ring"

Here are a couple I came up with. Let me know if anything strikes your fancy.

"Promotion"
"Inside Angle"
"I Wrestler"
"Pay Per View"
"Independents"
"S.E. - Sports Entertainment"
"Masks of Muscle"
"Can't Play Football"
"Three Count"
"Pin Fall"
"Worker"
"Working Warriors"
"Work Rate"

Well, that's all I can come up with for now. Most of those are pretty silly, but maybe they will spark more ideas.

,Matt

_________________
Check out my games at
http://www.angelfire.com/games3/errantknight

[ This Message was edited by: Eloran on 2001-10-24 14:07 ]

Lords of the Ring is perfect. Utterly friggin' perfect.

Best,
Ron

I like "I, Wrestler", but the humor may be lost on many potential players.

P.P.V. is actually pretty cool...

but the best Idea would be Mike's. Come up with the name of your ficticious wrestling organization, and make its acronym your name.

unheilig.

Yeah, I agree, you won't get much better than Lords of the Ring!!! That's the kind of wit that WON'T be lost on gamers.

Pin Fall isn't bad, Inside Angle is OK too. And I still like Into The Fray... But LOTR is easily the best.

Sean

"The Squared Circle" was always my favorite Mean Gene Oakerland-ism from way back.


-Time

Hey T, howya been? Great suggestion. I wonder if Mean Gene has that trademarked? Maybe Matt can call him and get a license for cheap. Then he could include Gene in the book in pictures and write it as though he was delivering it.

Mike

I thought the Squared Circle would be a cool title myself, but the Lords of the Ring is frickin' fantastic. Go with that.

I like "Lords of the Ring" too, but there is one potential snag. THere is a wrestling video with the name

Lords of the Ring: Superstars and Superbouts

Do you think there would be a copyright infringment there? I can't find any other potential problems and I only found one web site with that title and it's about boxing.

lordsofthering.com is an available web site aswell, unlike kayfabe.com

I think I'm gonna use it.

I'm not sure about the boxing video, but the WWF also uses that title on one of their videos. Apparently they weren't concerned about copyright infringement.

But when you're Vince McMahon, you don't really worry about anything.

I have heard the name Lords of the ROng before, too, in regards to wrestling. Don't exactly recall where.

Besides, The Tolkien estate just may take offense. SOme paralegal in their offices hears someone is making a role-playing game called "Lords of the Ring" and releases the hounds, nevermind that your game is pro-wrestling.

I suppose what I'm saying is, I wouldn't use that name were it my game. Partially because of potential legal trouble but mostly because the name is so close to Lord of the Rings. Had I been writing such a game I doubless would have come up with the name and then ashcanned it in disgust with myself because I couldn't think of a name that was not a variant of a fantasy property.

Not to dump on the name. It is a good name and everyone else seems to like it. I just wouldn't use it, personally.



TURNBUCKLE! < whap! >

Damn Lawyers!
THey have to ruin things for everyone.

I don't know what to do now.
I guess I will just throw out a few more options

"Main Event"
"Shoot"
"Behind the Curtain"
"House Show"
"Body Slam"
"Grapplers"

Hell, I think I may stick with Kayfabe after all. All the good names are taken anyway.

I suppose adding "the indside wrestling RPG" to the end of whatever I choose would make it different enough to cover my ass. The big question is "is Kayfabe a good name?" I like it and Moose likes it, but will enough people recognise it to convonce them to buy it?

I only occasionally watch wrestling. I try not to watch it too much or else I'd be one of those freaks with my favorite wrestler's name an image tatooed on my face I 'd get so caught up in it.

So, what does "Kayfabe" mean? I assume this was explained earlier.

It's a wimpy sounding word. I mean say it. "Kayfabe" Sounds like a transexual model or something. It just doesn't bring to mind pro-wrestling.

[I did a search and found a wrestling term dictionary! Lots of crap on the 'net.

http://www.lordsofpain.net/misc/dictionary.html

"Kayfabe - Of or related to inside information about the business, especially by fans. Origin is carny jargon talk for fake."]

I suggest this term isn't that good as a title, but who am I to judge. Maybe there's some inspiration on that site. (Faces & Heels?) Take a look.

In either case, I do like Lords of the Ring better than Kayfabe. How about changing LotR a bit.

Masters of the Mat
Kings of the Canvas
Royalty of the Ropes
Princes of Pagentry

Or something like that. The important thing is the title should immediately call to mind the subject matter. Otherwise you'll face the uphill battle of explaining what the heck your game is about every time.

A subtitle or tagline like "The wrestling RPG" might help, but not as good as a strong title in the first place.

Personally, I like simple, straightforward titles, like "Grudge Match" or something.

The reason I used kayfabe in the first place is because of the definition. My game is about the inside stuff in wrestling. The game doesn't have "to hit" rolls or dodging or damage or anything like that. It's all about how matches "really" work and how a show comes to be. Players control teh creative aspect of the wrestling shows as much as they control the physical part. I don't want people to pick up my game thinking it's a kicking ass and taking names type of game.

The game isn't a fighting game and I'd like the title to express that in some way. I want the title to say

"This is a game about the wrestling industry."

Hey, much sympathy to Eloran.

I'm in a similar situation having just found out another game has a very similar name to Agency 13 :sad:. So I'm trying to think of an alternative to avoid confusion etc.

Matt

I have a heretical comment. Please ignore if it bothers you.

Who cares if the title has been previously used?

- Many movies have the same title; many books have the same title
- Many books and movies with no relation to one another have the same title
- Many record albums have titles similar or identical to those of books or movies
- Many role-playing games or products have titles that differ only by one letter or even a grammatical mark (Swashbuckler vs. Swashbucklers! for instance)

So I suggest that absolutely no problem accrues by using either Kayfabe or Lords of the Ring. I had never heard of the term Kayfabe when I read Matt's game. He defined it up front in the text and I thought it was the perfect title. He wants another one? Fine - Lords of the Ring is another perfect title. I also suggest that no one cares if he uses either of them, and if they do, he can say, "Eat me," and be legally all right.

Okay, I'm done with my heresy. Don't bother to reply; I know the responses. Safe is better than sorry. Intellectual property is sacred. Respect demands that we minimize potential miscommunications. Fine, fine. All done, I'm wrong and going away now.

Best,
Ron

I've been begging him to stick with Kayfabe. It's a widespread term that Smarts (someone whose hip to the inside workings of wrestling) know and recognize instantly. Cover art and taglines will draw everyone else in, right?

There's not one, but two other rpgs called NightWatch (okay, one's vaporware, but you know what I mean). There's a movie by the same name. And there's a superhero RPG called Guardians that has a group of heroes who call themselves NightWatch (this last is where I stole the name from, long before any of the others ever existed).

Both Matts should keep whatever name they like best. Agency 13 rocks, as does Kayfabe.

- Scott

honesty.

sorry, I don't like Kayfabe, I don't care what it means.
Of course, its your baby, name it what you will.

but i assume this forum is to give opinions.
here's mine:
Kayfabe is an awful name.

Johnny-wrestling-fan/curious-gamer will be pushed away rather than attracted to the name. Why put an unneccesary roadblock between you and your target audience (no pun intended)?

If I see a listing for "kayfabe" (and I don't think you'll be publishing explanations in distribution listings, catalogs, etc.), I'll assume its something to do with anime or something. The WWF fan will not even register it, expecting things like "Raw Power!" or "Tournament of Slam!" or what not.

I just don't think the subject matter is well conveyed or well served by a name that's too "thinky".
(ya like that? "thinky"? I do, I'll be using that word a lot from now on...)

Love ya Matt, I'm just looking at this from a marketing standpoint.

Tom

[ This Message was edited by: unheilig on 2001-10-25 11:54 ]

Ron Said:
Who cares if the title has been previously used?

Moose Said:
Both Matts should keep whatever name they like best. Agency 13 rocks, as does Kayfabe.

Speaking strictly from a marketing perspective, I like Eloran's brainstorm of SHOOT as a title. Because everyone who likes wrestling knows what that word means. It mirrors what the game is about and it will tie-in with a good cover illustration.

Put it on the back cover too, with the definition and a short blurb about the game and bang, you've got a winner.

J

I gotta agree with Ron & Tom on this one.

I'm fairly into wrestling, watch it once a week, and catch most of the PPV's (it's good to have hacker friends :smile: ), tho I'm not a 'Smart'. And I never heard the word 'kayfabe' before your game.

If yer going to be spending real $$ printing it and selling it, you want to market it to the BIGGEST group possible. That means 'Lords of the Ring'. Fuck alla them lawyerly types by putting your tagline behind it, that way you distinguish yourself from other Lords of the Ring (videos, books, etc). What are they going to do anyways, sue you for the 800 copies you have left of the game?

The last thing you want to do is put out a game aimed soley at the Smartypants Wrestling-loving Narrativists. You'll sell like 12 copies. To the same people who playtested it and are already aware of it.

To paraphrase a Simpsons quote: We want a name that's witty, but is less witty every time you hear it. 'Kayfabe' is a name I'm embarrased to say out loud, it just sounds too fruity (no offense if you're into that kind of stuff). 'Lords of the Ring' is a pun my Mom would get.

My 2 cents...
Sean

Damn, who would have thought my little thread about coming up with a name would hit three pages?

You've all made some pretty good points. I'm gonna have to agree with those of you who think Kayfabe is a little on the swishy side if you don't know what it means up front.

I think I'm gonna go with

Lords of the Ring: The Inside Wrestling RPG

But that posses another small problem. I will need to replace all the kayfabe references with either

"Lords of the Ring" which is a bit long, or

"LOTR" which is a little too confusing considering the upcoming film.

,Matt

Hi Matt,

In the text, just call it Lords of the Ring the first time in a given section, and then just "Lords" for all subsequent times. That oughtta work.

Best,
Ron

Ron beat me to it.

I second his post, verbatim.

cheers,
Tom

Eloran,

You may or may not need to change the name of your game, kayfabe is a common usage word in the wrestling business.

That other guy used it as the title of a book and essentially you'd be doing the same thing. He may have used it first but more importantly, more people may associate that word with his book than your game. It's a chance you'd be taking but...

The other thing that I found out is that Kayfabe is trademarked but not by the guy who wrote the book. It's by some yahoo out in NM who wants to be able to use it as for all sorts of computer related things. Trademarks are pretty broad as it related to describing what you want to do with them.

I am not a lawyer. I just grow them. get a real one if you really want to dig into this further.

I am a wrestling fan and game fan and if you are going to change your games name then pick something as cool as Kayfabe. By that I am saying that Kayfabe is instantly recognizable to wrestling fans as an insider term and this game seems to be all about that.

How about something simple like

HEAT

Doc Midnight

OKay, I'm one of those smarty pants, wrestling loving, narrativists out here and I'll make an argument for fruity names.

If your game is aimed at we smarts, and there are more of us out here than Sean knows, then using an insider term should be fine.

Lords of the Ring is a good name but I have this idea that that group of gamists with d20s grafted to their bodies, waiting for WotC to call them home for Logan's Run-esque reward, will just be disappointed when they discover that there's no critical hit system.

All those Blank of the Blank names are just a bit too 80's. Know your market and take a shot.

Doc Midnight