As someone who seels mainly over the net, and given recent controversies over the changes in the D20 STL, I am pondering the realtive marketing power of the D20 logo. Is having that logo on the cover of your PDF worth abiding by its restrictions? Does it really generate that much more in sales in genres not explicitily tied to medieval fantasy?

The reason I am asking is because I had been contemplating a switch for a couple of my products from the D20 STL to a basic Open gaming License concept that allows me to include enough character creation rules to make it an open yet stand-alone game. I could then put an OGL logo on my cover that would indicate base compatibility with other OGL products but that the game is a complete stand-alone product. the D20 STL has enevr permitted putting in a complete character-creation system, and I'm thinking that may be what my game needs.

My line editor disagrees heartily with this, saying the D20 logo is a neccesity to attract any sales at all. In other words, if I don;t plasteer that logo onmy cover and abide by its restrictions nobody will buy my game.

Which of us is right?

If you have a setting already established in the market, then I believe you have the point.
Look at Decipher's Lord of the Rings rpg. I don't know if the sales to gamers go well but I do know that every local rpg store has bought dozens of it.
Another example is HeroQuest.
In the other case I believe your line editor has a point. Arrowflight is a new fantasy game, not D20 which the local stores I have checked don't even have a clue about it.
I assume from the way you are speaking that you most propably won't be dealing with something already established. In order not to go D20 I believe you have to create something really original and cool that as a game outbests D20 in human gamer's mind. If you have the idea allready about it then do it this way. If you don't and don't even have a famous setting and want to sale biggest possible at least for start then go D20 or at least include it as a conversion (that's the best thing to do I believe*)

* Because if things go well for your product most propably you won't be needing the logo for the next productions of the line.

It seems lik what you are talking about is what a lot of people have been considering. A lot of the people on the GPA have been talking about a d20 compatible logo without the d20 STL. I have to say, we are even thinking about something along these lines. It is tough because you really can't do that as I understand the d20 STL and the OGL.

Ultimately, we may end up going with the d20 STL since it is somewhat less risky than OGL combined with trying to say we are d20 compatible.

Ciao,
Bill

In my most humble opinion (and as a person looking at getting into game publishing), not an established publisher),I think there is no potential return great enough for me to risk the possible repercussions of publishing under the d20 STL as it currently stands.

I feel the recent "decency clause" changes are far too vague, and too open to potential abuse. (Not to say WotC would do things they shouldn',t but the STL would allow them to, with no means of recourse for the victim. The potential is the worrisome part) This sort of things is always problematic as everyone's personal sense of decency is going to be slightly different. The examples given are so strict that many of WotC's own products are in violation, as are a large segement of other publications in the industry (depending on the interpretation of the clause of course, and this is exactly the problem).
WotC isn't even offering a pre-approval process, as far as I know, which puts anyone planning a d20 product in a fairly scary position.

Especially if sales are primarily over the net, and getting into retail stores isn't a major concern, I'd say the risk of using d20 far outweighs the benefits.

After these changes, I am incredibly thankful that I did not develop my upcoming game as a d20 product.
Just my two cents.

Wizards of the Coast recently newly revised the d20 License. I think you should rethink about going D20. Go check out the new regulations to find out
Here is a link that could be of some help:
http://www.necromancergames.com/pdf/d20stlreview.pdf

I think you'll be fine printing in OGL.

In the d20 System Trade mark logo guide faq:

http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=dt20010417d

The question is specifically asked:

"Q: Could I create a character system that didn't use classes and/or levels at all?

A: Sure."

This is exactly what Guardians of Order did with Anime d20. It contains a character generation system that is point-based, that fits mostly perfectly into class and level D20, and is a lot more user friendly and empowering.

What's more, GOO has made it free under the OGL:

http://www.guardiansorder.com/d20/animed20_srd/


I like tp believe that if you have good cover art, people will pick up your book. As long as they do that much and look inside, and see all the friendly OGL's d20 mechanics, you'll be okay. We won't see a problem unless / until other game systems are released under the OGL, which would rapidly dilute its value.

Also, why don't you send a copy of your book to WOTC and ask for their approval? It's in their interests to approve books and to do it in a timely manner. Once you have that you can add the D20 TM on it and you're set.

Navin

xechnao wrote: Wizards of the Coast recently newly revised the d20 License. I think you should rethink about going D20. Go check out the new regulations to find out
Here is a link that could be of some help:
http://www.necromancergames.com/pdf/d20stlreview.pdf

xechnao wrote: Wizards of the Coast recently newly revised the d20 License. I think you should rethink about going D20. Go check out the new regulations to find out
Here is a link that could be of some help:
http://www.necromancergames.com/pdf/d20stlreview.pdf

Hi Anthony,

The hardest issue that must be addressed, to answer your question, is this:

What is a "sale"?

Remember, most RPG publishers are done with the sale when the books, or boxes of books, are bought by a distributor. When companies quote their sales to you, that's almost certainly what they are talking about.

But this may or may not mean anything, at all, regarding the presence of the book in actual game stores, and that of course may not mean anything in terms of consumer sales.

So right now, when people talk about how labeling a book "d20" increases sales, they are talking about getting the books into boxes in a distributor's warehouse. And if that's really where your attention is focused as a publisher, then there ya go. (Although I hasten to add that a D20 book from an unknown, at this point, is regarded with much fear and potential loathing by many retailers.)

But whether that means a damn thing for you in terms of getting customers to buy and play your game, in the long term, is absolutely unknown at this time. The success rate for companies that did not exist prior to the release of d20 is, to say the least, low.

Now, if you are talking about primarily direct sale over the internet, that's a whole different kettle of osteichthyans. A number of people have been quite successful in this regard, up to and including selling more of their non-d20 stuff in combination with the d20 stuff. So I'm not writing off d20 for the independent publisher at all, far from it. But in this case, we are talking about "sale" meaning one customer, who buys the game itself, from you. It's a whole different scale of production and profit, book by book, not boxes by boxes.

Best,
Ron

BESM d20 is a d20 licensed product, not OGL.

Anime d20, as linked above, is OGL.

Best,
Adam

Ron,

I guess what I was asking is if the carrot (having the d20 logo on your cover) is worth the stick (giving up so much control over your work). What is the attraction of having the d20 logo? Is it the assumption of having more potential sales- regardless of which definition of "sale" you are using- worth the loss of creative control?

I really dig the whole idea of creator-control, and while I'm not a game designer, I feel inspired to try just by reading the passion so many of the folks here at the Forge have about their creations. I have a hard time concieving giving up control over something I was that passionate about- regardless of brand recognition.

I'm curious as to how many designers that post here have done a dual stat book- I know of some (Silver Age Sentinels springs to mind) but how many others are considering it or have done it? And to the ones that have- did it make a differance and how did you like working under the restrictions imposed by Wizards? Are they less onerous than I think they are?

Thanks

Anthony I wrote:

xechnao wrote: Wizards of the Coast recently newly revised the d20 License. I think you should rethink about going D20. Go check out the new regulations to find out
Here is a link that could be of some help:
http://www.necromancergames.com/pdf/d20stlreview.pdf

After reading through the link I've got to wonder- why would anyone give up that much control of their creation just to use the d20 logo/ogl stuff? Does it really help sell your game any better?

Hi Adam, I misspoke. Yes, Anime d20 is OGL. It is also a licensed d20 product. Correct?

ethan_greer wrote: Hi Adam, I misspoke. Yes, Anime d20 is OGL. It is also a licensed d20 product. Correct?

xechnao wrote: Indeed most of the companies are giving up the D20 logo now. And that includes all the newer compainies that Ron is talking about. Somehow this year will be the ending of D20 in the market like we have been knowing it so far. There will be a lot fewer D20 products from now on. Definatelly this is going to provoke a lot more change in the market but it's not yet safe to speculate how. For the time being and the immediate future not going D20 seems to be the way as for Michael's case.

Hi Paul,

I'm having a little trouble understanding that very last bit of your post ...

see more products released under the OGL but not the d20 logo, yes.

Hi Ron and no problem

The starting premise is that every book released under the d20 system trademark license (having the d20 logo on the cover) is also released using the Open Game License. However, not every book released under the Open Game License is released under the d20 license.

To use the d20 license you have to (among other things) conform to the requirements of the Open Game License. However, to use the Open Game License you do not have to use the d20 system trademark license.

So, as an example. Mutants and Masterminds by Green Ronin is released under the Open Game License but not under the d20 license. This allows MnM to have character creation and advancement rules within it. As with any d20 product it's still drawing upon the system reference document (commonly called the SRD - the SRD is the rules of d20) but does not get to use the d20 badge on the cover.

Essentially, it's a tradeoff. Using the d20 license gives you the recognised compatibility indicator of the badge, but restricts your content (no character creation as the original example of a restriction). Not using it means your book might still be compatible but not instantly recognisable as such, however you can then do things (character creation) that you can't do if you had a d20 badge on the cover.

So, while i'm not expecting d20 to go away, I am expecting more publishers to release books using the system but not using the d20 badge. Even those who aren't giving up the use of the d20 logo in toto.

Thanks Paul,

Got it - "more OGL, from everyone, especially for new stuff, but not as much 'dropping d20' as some folks are predicting."

Also (and this is one of those self-respect-saving paragraphs that's probably not necessary), I actually already understand the relationship with OGL and d20, but it's good to have it laid out for others.

Best,
Ron

Hmm, I've counted a handful of companies, with Avalanche as the biggest, that have decided to go strictly OGL. And by a handful I really do mean that - around 5. Therefore it's more than a stretch to say that 'most' d20 companies are giving up the d20 logo. Moreover with Green Ronin, Necromancer, Bastion, Mystic Eye, FFG, AEG and ourselves I'd say that none of the biggest companies have chosen to give up releasing books using the d20 logo. I highly doubt that this year will see the end of d20 - see more products released under the OGL but not the d20 logo, yes.

MongoosePaul wrote:
Essentially, it's a tradeoff. Using the d20 license gives you the recognised compatibility indicator of the badge, but restricts your content (no character creation as the original example of a restriction). Not using it means your book might still be compatible but not instantly recognisable as such, however you can then do things (character creation) that you can't do if you had a d20 badge on the cover.

Xechano,

Paul works for Mongoose, one of the biggest and best D20 producers. And I'm going to guess he knows the people in those other companies personally. If he hasn't talked to them, he's at least probably heard them speak and the ENies, and other places, or knowswhat's going on from inside sources, etc.

I'm going to trust him on this one.

Mike

xechnao wrote:

Dunno, I've got my impression from gaming report's site and links. Are you sure the companies you are reffering to are definatelly going to hold the D20 license for their products?

Paul is right. Avalanche is the only company of any size that's bailing on d20 altogether. Atlas said they are considering what to do, but they haven't done anything as yet. While I'm sure people are making contingency plans, none of the leading d20 companies are giving up use of the license just yet.

I suspect a number of publishers are also waiting to see if WotC is going to do anything to make the recent changes to the d20 stl a little more "user friendly" before making the final decision to bail or not.

Early comments (in my perception at least) seemed to indicate that WotC was considering the issue, and what they might be able to do to address the concerns without compromising the intent behind the change.

If that works out, I don't think the crowd of d20 publishers will thin out much at all.
If it doesn't work out, then that may be a different story.

Hello,

I think the issue raised by the initial post has been beaten into the ground pretty well, by this point. Since none of us really "know" what "could" happpen, and since certain useful observations have been made about what various companies really are doing, I'm not sure what information remains to be discussed.

If you are interested in discussing or clarifying an issue about the d20/OGL rules, then please start a new thread. But this one - "What will publishers do?" - is done.

Best,
Ron