Topic: How does Sorcery work?
Started by: Scripty
Started on: 9/27/2003
Board: HeroQuest
On 9/27/2003 at 8:56pm, Scripty wrote:
How does Sorcery work?
Briefly, on pg. 155, in HeroQuest, the authors mention Sorcery, and speak a little about how it works. They avoid any amount of detail, however. Can anyone here elaborate on what is printed there? Tapping is mentioned. What exactly is it, and how does it come into play? They also mention what I assume is another occupation, the magus. Can anyone describe in more detail what the difference between a magus and a wizard is?
On 9/28/2003 at 12:56am, RaconteurX wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
Sorcery is Wizardry performed outside of a church setting. Independent adepts lack a guiding community presence and are considered potentially dangerous, much as Kolati shamans would be considered by the majority of Heortlings. A wizard works within the church setting, a magus does not. They are both adepts of a high order, the wizard just enjoys greater sanction.
As for Tapping, it is a practice in which some sorecerors engage and which is usually considered morally evil by churchs. It involves draining a thing of some portion of its nature. Tapping permanently consumes that nature and converts it to magical power which the sorceror can then use in rituals or spellcasting. Tapping will supposedly be covered in upcoming supplements on the West, although I am uncertain at what point it will appear. Hero Wars had rules for Tapping, I believe, but I do not have a copy handy and cannot confirm that positively.
There are numerous secret orders in the West (typically in the Safelster region of Ralios) which practice Tapping, such as the Boristi who believe that it is acceptable to Tap creatures of Chaos and the Galvosti who believe it is acceptable to Tap pagans (anyone who is not a monotheist). The Brithini are immortal, amoral sorcerors who are the remnants of the original Kingdom of Logic and Tap without restriction.
On 9/28/2003 at 12:57pm, Scripty wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
Thanks, Michael. I appreciate the explanation and have clipped it to add into the back of my book. It's reassuring to know that the mechanics for Tapping haven't been covered yet. I was searching high and low through my HQ book and was pretty confused. Everything else is explained in such detail that it was hard for me to fathom why this element would have been left so vague.
Subsequently, I was working on bringing HeroQuest over to a couple of settings where Tapping would be an important element. Most specifically I am bringing FFG's Midnight setting and REHoward Hyborean Age to the HeroQuest rules system.
Do you, or anyone else, have house rules or notions on how Tapping would/should work? I've fiddled with some ideas, but nothing all that interesting. I could certainly use another perspective on it, especially if the official rules for it aren't due within any known period of time.
Thanks again.
On 9/28/2003 at 6:12pm, Ian Cooper wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
Scripty wrote: Do you, or anyone else, have house rules or notions on how Tapping would/should work? I've fiddled with some ideas, but nothing all that interesting. I could certainly use another perspective on it, especially if the official rules for it aren't due within any known period of time.
Anaxial's Roster contains a number of creatures that use tapping and the conversion notes on the website explain how to handle tapping:
http://www.glorantha.com/support/HQConversion_1103.html
On 9/28/2003 at 7:44pm, Scripty wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
Thanks, Ian. I'll check that out ASAP.
On 9/29/2003 at 9:08am, RaconteurX wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
Ian Cooper wrote: Anaxial's Roster contains a number of creatures that use tapping and the conversion notes on the website explain how to handle tapping.
The conversion notes cover creatures which possess abilities similar to Tapping, but do not address how a sorceror would utilize the stolen ability. Lacking my copy of Hero Wars, I only recall that two different approachs were discussed in playtest. In one, the ability points Tapped convert to temporary Hero Points on a 2:1 basis (so a two-point loss provides one HP) which the sorceror could use to improve the results of a magic-related roll. In the other, the ability points Tapped became an augment to same.
The former makes Tapping very powerful, but suits a model of powerful, nasty, rogue magicians. Heroes should probably not engage in Tapping, unless the narrator wants his or her storyline to serve as a morality play as well as entertainment. Tapping is just plain nasty, and it is not without consequence. The Brithini of Arolanit, for example, have so Tapped their land that it is colorless, drab and lifeless compared to that of neighboring kingdoms. The Boristi are in danger of corruption by the Chaos they Tap, physically as well as mentally.
Fun stuff. :)
On 9/29/2003 at 3:11pm, dunlaing wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
The Anaxial's Roster conversion version of Tapping are just plain too good for PCs. (points you Tap go directly to a set of your abilities. Permanently).
In my campaign, we have a Sorcerer who Taps. We handle it like this:
He uses his Tap Magic ability in a contest against his opponent's best Magical Ability. Assuming he wins, he gets:
1 point added to his Tap Pool on a marginal victory
10% of the opponent's score to his Tap Pool on a minor victory
50% of the opponent's score to his Tap Pool on a major victory
100% of the opponent's score to his Tap Pool on a complete victory
the opponent loses the same amount. He can use the Tap Pool to add to spells or grimoires in contests.
If he loses the contest, he loses the amount he'd have won on that level of victory.
Example:
Clatu has a 5W Tap Magic and a 3 Tap Pool. Gronk has a 17 Find Safe Campsite charm (his best magical ability. They roll off and Clatu gets a minor victory. Clatu adds 2 points to his Tap Pool (bringing it up to 5) and Gronk subtracts 2 points (permanently) from his Find Safe Campsite Charm. Gronk decides to kill Clatu in his sleep and uses his Assassinate Sorcerers While They Sleep 10W2. Clatu defends with his Avoid Being Killed In Your Sleep spell 5W. Fearing for his life, he adds all 5 of his Tap Pool to his Avoid Being Killed In Your Sleep spell, bringing it up to 10W and dropping his Tap Pool to 0.
This is essentially how it worked in Hero Wars, except that the Tap Pool was used to grant edges instead of just adding in.
On 9/30/2003 at 10:57am, simon_hibbs wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
My guess would be that tapping will be handled as a Secret, and hence doesn't have to follow the normal game rules but I may be wrong. Tapping is generaly considered to be as moraly reprehensible as consorting with chaos, so it's not the sort of thing you'd normaly expect PCs to engage in anyway although obviously to portray evil sorcerer NPCs with such abilities you need rules for it.
My preference would be to model Tapping as adding to a temporary pool of one-use points you can use for magical augments.
Simon Hibbs
On 9/30/2003 at 2:16pm, dunlaing wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
simon_hibbs wrote: Tapping is generaly considered to be as moraly reprehensible as consorting with chaos, so it's not the sort of thing you'd normaly expect PCs to engage in anyway although obviously to portray evil sorcerer NPCs with such abilities you need rules for it.
um, aren't these the same forums that discuss the game Sorcerer? Why should I limit my gaming experience to expecting PCs to only engage in conduct that's not considered "moraly reprehensible" by the setting's NPCs?
On 9/30/2003 at 4:29pm, Nick Brooke wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
dunlaing wrote:simon_hibbs wrote: Tapping is generaly considered to be as moraly reprehensible as consorting with chaos, so it's not the sort of thing you'd normaly expect PCs to engage in anyway...
Why should I limit my gaming experience to expecting PCs to only engage in conduct that's not considered "moraly reprehensible" by the setting's NPCs?
In my experience of gaming in Glorantha (from RuneQuest through HeroQuest), I've found player characters do not normally engage in conduct which their Gloranthan cultures condemn as morally reprehensible. It is of course possible to do so; moreover, I'm aware of groups who have played mini-campaigns with 'morally reprehensible' broo or scorpion man PCs (not to mention the 'synthetic outrage' that pro-Heortling players from time to time summon up against Lunar stooges like myself, and vice versa -- chaos dupe! barbarian savage!), but I think you'll find this is the exception rather than the rule.
Given the amount of Gloranthan background material dealing with cultural mores and social norms (cf. HeroQuest Voices for the latest instalment), ignoring them willy-nilly seems wasteful and short-sighted to me. I don't think Simon expects you to 'limit your gaming experience', but our experience is that these cultural norms can be valuable tools for role-playing, not just obstacles to be ignored or swept aside. Each to his own, though...
Cheers, Nick
On 9/30/2003 at 4:49pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
Hello,
Nick, please set down your "expert" hat. I think it's keeping you from seeing an important point.
Given that play is set during the Hero Wars, morality is up for grabs. Is it all right to treat with a band of broo, if it means you can get your kin's land back from the Lunars? Is it all right to betray your superior in the service of the Crimson Bat when you decide that the Bat's Holy Awfulness is being mis-used in Tarsh?
Is it all right to Tap if it means you can re-organize (some would say blaspheme) your clan's myth during a HeroQuest, and thus preserve your community in the face of the troll army passing through?
It's not a matter of the shallow folk who ignore or eschew the cultural depth of Glorantha vs. the faithful who embrace it. It's a matter of wrestling with the issues and defining a new morality in the teeth of changing times. That's what a Hero Band is.
Argrath is immoral at one point or another by the standards of any of the cultures embroiled in the Hero Wars in Dragon Pass. To address that issue during play - using the established cultural mores of the involved cultures - is supported explicitly throughout the text of HeroQuest.
Best,
Ron
On 9/30/2003 at 7:05pm, joshua neff wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
I think Ron's got it.
One of my players gave her hero Hates Chaos as a personality trait. Part of her background is that her mother was raped by a broo & killed giving birth to a broo monstrosity. So, now she hates Chaos with a passion. Another player has said his character is intrigued by Chaos & would like to learn more about it (although he currently has no abilities reflecting this). Which viewpoint is the correct one to take? Consider this: the Chaos-hater is a practitioner of Jakaleel, while the intrigued-by-Chaos hero is a Rinliddi who just has Common Magic right now.
As far as I'm concerned both are "right" & neither are. The Jakaleel animist will get lectured by her witch mentor to accept Chaos as part of the whole. If the Rinliddi wants to get involved with Chaos magic, I'm cool with that. Of course, at the same time, in their adventures in the Lunar Empire, they will almost certainly come face-to-face with some pretty nasty Chaos stuff, most of it related to Lunars working with Chaos.
Is Chaos bad? Is Tapping evil? Is the Lunar Empire bad? It depends. And when it comes to morality, the PC heroes will be the one defining that, through their herobanding, heroquesting, & general all-around wrestling with issues.
In other words, when it comes to PC heroes, the exception is the rule.
On 9/30/2003 at 9:02pm, Scripty wrote:
Thanks all
Wow, this thread swerved off topic quick! I would like to say thanks to all of you who have been so helpful in helping me resolve this matter. I understand "Tapping" now (at least well enough to know where, or if, I should include it in our games) and extend my gratitude
This forum continues to be an exemplary (and civilized) font of gaming knowledge. As far as "good things about the internet", the Forge is right up there with email (not spam) for me.
On 9/30/2003 at 11:12pm, RaconteurX wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
Ron Edwards wrote: Given that play is set during the Hero Wars, morality is up for grabs.
Cultural relativism is the norm in Glorantha, and it will become especially harsh as the Hero Wars progress. As heroes are drawn deeper into the conflict, especially as its scope broadens to encompass greater numbers of cultures, moral ambiguity becomes almost impossible to ignore. While I'm as fond of angsty morality plays as the next guy, culture heroes are ultimately fanatics for whom morality is absolute. Their mentality is "Us vs. Them" taken to its most extreme. What one culture considers moral, another considers immoral. The best real-world analogy which comes to mind are the opposite meanings of the words deva and asura in Persian and Hindi; one man's devil is another's angel.
Sartarite: "Better dead than red!"
Lunar: "We are all us, even if it kills you."
On 10/1/2003 at 2:56am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
Hiya,
I'd like to give credit to Nick (moonbroth) for making some excellent points about this thread to me in private mail, and for being a total gentleman.
Best,
Ron
On 10/1/2003 at 6:59am, Nick Brooke wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
RaconteurX wrote:Ron Edwards wrote: Given that play is set during the Hero Wars, morality is up for grabs.
Cultural relativism is the norm in Glorantha, and it will become especially harsh as the Hero Wars progress.
For an alternate take, check out the old (but still enlightening) Premise in Hero Wars? thread. Ron's summary (7th post down):
Ron Edwards wrote: The Old World and its values is over. This is what I think we need to do now. What, for your player-characters, is the "This"?
Now, that works for me. (But do check the surrounding context -- I found it deeply cool and insightful). But it kinda cuts against your vision (i.e. that in the Hero Wars period, Heortlings remain uber-Orlanthi, Lunars keep on hailing the Reaching Moon, etc., never questioning their beliefs and values despite the ensuing cosmic calamities). As we say, though, YGWV.
Cheers, Nick
edited: Red Moon => Reaching Moon
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 1631
On 10/1/2003 at 8:59am, simon_hibbs wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
dunlaing wrote:simon_hibbs wrote: Tapping is generaly considered to be as moraly reprehensible as consorting with chaos, so it's not the sort of thing you'd normaly expect PCs to engage in anyway although obviously to portray evil sorcerer NPCs with such abilities you need rules for it.
um, aren't these the same forums that discuss the game Sorcerer? Why should I limit my gaming experience to expecting PCs to only engage in conduct that's not considered "moraly reprehensible" by the setting's NPCs?
I used the term 'normaly expect' advisedly. Of course you can do whatever you like in your game and I have not said otherwise. I'm merely giving one explanation why the game doesn't have rules for Tapping at the moment. The core rules are designed to support what the authors imagine to be the most likely or common modes of play. All games do that, but it doesn't mean that other modes of play are necesserily wrong. I think there are good reasons why worshiping chaos horrors and tapping aren't presented as standard player character options in the game.
Ron Edwards wrote: Is it all right to Tap if it means you can re-organize (some would say blaspheme) your clan's myth during a HeroQuest, and thus preserve your community in the face of the troll army passing through?
The ways of The Dark Side are easy and tempting, but we still all know it's the Dark Side, and using it against your enemies is wrong even if that guy did kill your father.
Simon Hibbs
On 10/1/2003 at 10:28am, contracycle wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
simon_hibbs wrote: I think there are good reasons why worshiping chaos horrors and tapping aren't presented as standard player character options in the game.
One problem though is that it might not be the players who want to know it and use it so much as the GM. Obviously, if this is morally reprehensible, then its an excellent signpost of the villains villainy; for this reason alone I think theree is a good argument to be made for the inclusion of this sort of 'bad guy' schtick.
On 10/1/2003 at 10:34am, pete_darby wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
"Your storm voice lied to you... I AM YOUR FATHER!"
Flaw: inappropriate pop-culture references 18W2
On 10/1/2003 at 10:49am, Nick Brooke wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
contracycle wrote: One problem though is that it might not be the players who want to know it and use it so much as the GM. Obviously, if this is morally reprehensible, then it's an excellent signpost of the villain's villainy; for this reason alone I think there is a good argument to be made for the inclusion of this sort of 'bad guy' schtick.
Simon already acknowledged this above:
simon_hibbs wrote: ... obviously to portray evil sorcerer NPCs with such abilities you need rules for it.
Anyhow, I think we're lurching towards a consensus on Tapping in HeroQuest; for my part, I'm rather fond of Julian Lord's ideas (expressed on one of the HeroQuest Yahoo!Groups) re: how all forms of Gloranthan Sorcery 'tap' particular flows of power. I'd post the reference, if only I could access those archives from the office... :-(
Cheers, Nick
On 10/1/2003 at 12:47pm, Scripty wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
contracycle wrote: One problem though is that it might not be the players who want to know it and use it so much as the GM. Obviously, if this is morally reprehensible, then its an excellent signpost of the villains villainy; for this reason alone I think theree is a good argument to be made for the inclusion of this sort of 'bad guy' schtick.
That's pretty much where I was/am. I wanted to know what "tapping" was because I was planning on using the HeroQuest rules for other settings (i.e. Midnight and Hyborea) and wanted to know if it would be appropriate.
It is appropriate for creatures like astiraxes and the other magic-draining minions of Izrador in Midnight. It's not appropriate for the character class (now occupation) of Channelers (which I had previously thought it might be).
It's totally appropriate for Conan villains. Not so appropriate for PCs, but I'd be willing to let it slide with the right concept and a fitting trade-off for the PC.
For me, not really explaining "Tapping" was a hindrance. I'm going to be running a game. It would be nice to know that this is the mechanism whereby Vampires gain their powers. Perhaps including it in the Narrators' chapter (where optional rules and other miscellanea can be found (like Edges/Handicaps)) would have been a compromise between letting players know that this is not a "normal" option for them as PCs, but still giving the Narrator the widest range of tools available to run her campaigns.
On 10/1/2003 at 1:22pm, simon_hibbs wrote:
RE: How does Sorcery work?
moonbroth wrote:
Anyhow, I think we're lurching towards a consensus on Tapping in HeroQuest; for my part, I'm rather fond of Julian Lord's ideas (expressed on one of the HeroQuest Yahoo!Groups) re: how all forms of Gloranthan Sorcery 'tap' particular flows of power. I'd post the reference, if only I could access those archives from the office... :-(
I think the difference is that the mainstream churches use renewable sources of power, while tapping is an easier but non-renewable approach.
Simon Hibbs