Hi all!

I just thought I'd post and offer to answer (or at least try!) any questions people might have about Gen Con So Cal.

The show will take place in the Anaheim Convention Center, just across from Disneyland, on Dec 11-14. We have over 90 exhibitors signed up, over 1000 gaming events, over 20 artists, and our special guests include William Shatner and Tracy Hickman. Okay, I'll stop there or this starts looking too much like an advertisement.

One thing that might be particularly interesting to discuss on this board is how we as convention organizers can better support smaller, independent games companies at Gen Con conventions--not just So Cal, but Indy too. (Oh my...I can hear it now, "We want indies at Indy!")

Anyway, just thought I'd post and emphasize my availability in case anyone had any questions, comments, or suggestions.

Hi Peter,

This is an excellent topic for this forum (I just posted a mean Sticky about that sort of thing).

The reason it's good is because it's about how to approach a given convention for maximum impact. To do this, we have to look at the convention in two ways.

1. The convention may include specific rules or opportunities that help small press publishers, which describes most of us here. (GenCon offers a reduced booth price for first-time publishers, for instance.)

2. It may include rules that don't do any such thing intentionally, but have loopholes that permit a certain kind of marketing or play experience. (That describes the Forge Booth multi-publisher tactic, which uses Exhibitor Badges essentially as booth buy-ins.)

So what's up with GenCon SoCal in this regard?

Here's one possible issue, although by no means the only one to discuss. The trouble with the Forge Booth tactic is that it's pretty hard on Adept Press cash flow for a limited time, and I can't afford two such "times" in a single fiscal year. Can anyone come up with a better model for such an effort?

Here's another: do registered and payment-requiring game demo sessions really accomplish anything of direct profit? I've found informal hallway or booth sessions to be far more effective in terms of sales. My standards for good sales, by the way, are measured in the dozens, not in ones and twos. A good day means forty or fifty books passed the register, not five or ten. Is a four-hour demo really good for a dozen clear and unequivocal sales?

Can anyone suggest a GenCon policy or activity that would allow more effective integration of play and sales?

Best,
Ron

how we as convention organizers can better support smaller, independent games companies at Gen Con conventions--not just So Cal, but Indy too

At other shows I've taken part in for non-gaming reasons, 1-2 person shops have exhibited in specialized areas sponsored by larger companies, so they end up paying subsidized costs. (e.g. the Developer Zone sponsored by Sony-Ericsson)

In those cases, the larger companies have usually acknowledged the likelihood that the smaller companies' products (e.g. ring tones) are helping sales of their own products (e.g. cell phones).

So what we need is a "small press games zone" sponsored by somebody like Mountain Dew. We can give out "dew20" stickers or something with the regular brochures and all that, and visitors can register to win 12 packs and those giant mugs and that sort of thing.

Does gaming help sell Mountain Dew? I bet we could make that case pretty easily.

Ralph makes some very interesting and salient points.

Understanding what indie game designers do at a con is key to helping us (help you):

We promote like mad. We hand out our own fliers and stickers to (dis)interested passerby. Why do I note this? Because while we are promoting, it is likely we are not selling. It's a one man show, so you can only do one thing at a time.

We need help promoting our presence and generating exposure.

Having a "promotions area" isn't the solution for this. Bigger companies will always out-strip us with flashier and more plentiful swag. Perhaps there could very well be an indie-rpg protected zone. Dedicated space for game designers to hang their hat and shuck their wares. Perhaps with a rental fee attached (and proof of your published game)? 4x4 Tables right in the exhibitor's hall, $100 a day. Set them all up in a corrall and see what happens. But give them a place to play in view of every one else.

Also, Ralph points out the physics of promoting indie-rpgs. We require intimacy and a relatively sane surroundings. Video screens, sound systems and mics destroy us every time. I was just at an event where I was shouting over Grand Theft Auto for the whole day. It was nerve-wracking, distracting and tiring. And I really failed to make an impression in comparison to the mass murder taking place 4' from me. The Forge's location next to Earth and Beyond at GenCon was doubly nerve wracking.

Lastly, if one really wants to support indie-rpgs, one must realize that we don't have any money, we do this out of love, and we work very hard at it. Without Ron's generous offer to be a part of the Forge booth, I would not have made it to GenCon. If the costs can be mitigated in anyway for the attendance of indie-rpg designers, this would go a long way toward improving our presence there.

just a final note:
after a year of promoting BW here is what i look for when i go to a con:
a table to accomodate 4-6 people.
a relatively quiet room, talking is fine, music and video is not.
a location that gets some gamer traffic
time to use the space--generally 8-10 hrs.
and many places to advertise and promote (boards, walls, signs, etc)

thanks for asking!
-Luke

A dedicated demo room for indie games (maybe even an event in the program book that really amounts to "spend 3 (or 4, or 6) hours here and demo 3 (or 4, or 6) small press games") would be ideal, except:

1) You'd have to able to sell at this out-of-Exhibition-Hall location. I understand this is a big issue for the convention organizers.

2) The Exhibition Hall is where the action (traffic) is. While demos and informative/sales-oriented conversation are better suited to another location, getting the real people to "fill the seats" means - by my understanding - being in the Hall.

Even if Peter/GenCon could come up with a solution to 1, 2 would still be an issue. That is, if we had our own place more compatible with our goals, would anyone go there? Maybe some sort of hybrid would work, at least as a test - if a booth refers people to another location with demos and details, do people actually go there?

I'd love to see more indie/small press games show up in the event listings of convention program books, but given the choice between doing that or actually SELLING, the indie guy probably has to sell. In the Hall. Even if the booth is in front of a loudspeaker blasting away at intentionally-attention-grabbing volume.

Gordon

Cool posts. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I don't have much yet in the way of definitive responses, but I've printed off the thread so far for my sales & marketing manager and we're going to go through it together here soon. But at this point, sorta mid-thread perhaps, I thought I'd respond to your posts about what it's like to be an indie publisher with some insight into what it's like to be a large-show convention organizer. The more we all understand about the indie business model and the Gen Con business model the higher the likelihood of coming up with ideas that work for everyone.

To put on a show like what Gen Con fans have grown to expect requires about a million bucks. Obviously we need to bring in a similar amount of revenues, or more if we want to make a profit (which of course we do). The revenues are split about 50/50 between exhibitors (booth space rental, advertising, sponsorships, and exhibitor badges) and attendees (badge sales, event tickets, merchandise, and hotel rebates). Each of these two customers has different, yet complementary goals. Attendees want to game, be entertained, have exposure to insiders and celebrities, and shop. Industry people want to make money (perhaps), gain marketing exposure, network, and generally keep up with what's happening. With attendees we are like a traditional event management company, running an event for them to enjoy. With businesses we are more like a combination of a marketing services company and an opportunity for direct-to-consumer retailing.

Because many of our business customers are competitors with each other (and this is hardly unique--those of you who are publishers and sell to multiple distributors or retailers have the same challenge) it's critical that our policies be fair and consistent from customer to customer. While it is possible to have different prices for different customers, those prices have to correspond to some policy or practice that is consistently applied and hopefully reinforces the behaviors you want.

And, naturally, we need to protect our revenue streams, which is why some of the policies are the way they are. Two policies in particular are a bit controversial and warrant some explanation. The first is that we don't allow publishers to demo their games for free except in the exhibit hall. There's one fairly well-known publisher who, every year, refuses to buy a booth yet runs around trying to avoid us and demo his games for free. We don't allow it because we're not getting event revenue from the people who play his games, and we're not getting booth revenue from him either. We don't mind free events in the exhibit hall because the exhibitors are essentially subsidizing those games by paying premium prices for that exhibit hall space.

The other somewhat controversial policy (in that people often ask why) is that most other conventions don't charge attendees to play games. The reason for the charge is basically that people don't tend to place much value a committment that they don't pay for. With so many distractions at Gen Con, there's a very high no-show rate at gaming events. We've discovered (more accurately, earlier Gen Con managers discovered) that this is significantly mitigated by asking gamers to pay a nominal fee ($0.75/hour at the low end) to play in a game. And gaming event fees are further used to motivate gaming organizers to come and run events in that organizers can charge more than this and keep the delta.

So to bring this to some sort of point, in exploring ideas of things Gen Con can do to help independent publishers, I need ideas for policies, promotions, whatever that I can apply consistently. A policy like "give independent publishers a price break" isn't very good because then I have to explain to my bigger customers why the smaller companies are getting an advantage, when in fact, it generally works the other way around (volume discounts are the norm in business). On the other hand, a policy like "have an area where companies can purchase a 4'x4' table" instead of having a 10' x 10' booth being the minimum might work since, if WizKids really wanted to, they could buy a 4'x4' table. Hmm...perhaps this area could have a centralized cash register system so that small companies don't have to bother with credit card machines and such...sorta like how we run the art show (we sell space, much cheaper than exh hall, plus take 10% of sales).

Consistency of policies is more important than actual money (within reason). I make my real money from the big exhibitors, especially the ones willing to purchase sponsorships (pay me to hang their logo everywhere--that's great $!). But I really want you guys at our shows. It adds a dimension of authenticity, and a lot of our attendees come looking for the products they don't get to buy easily at their local retail shop.

So what we need to help independent publishers are policies that can be evenly applied, but really benefit small companies.

This past GenCon was my twentysecond. I was running a club-based track of games (If you saw LEGO, it was probably us) with six GMs. I'm an educated con consumer. And The Forge was my treasured find for the con this year.

When I was eleven, hiking out the the Gym at Parkside to see the unairconditioned dealer room was really the highlight of the fair. I spent hours in the sweltering heat. This year it took me hours to find anything of interest (Ron Edwards, as it turned out). The dealers room is _way_ less appealing than it once was and it's not just a changing me. It's too loud, too crowded, and oddly, too commercial. (I know, I know...that's the point; but it was always the point before, too.) I think that the con as a whole, and small/indie companies in particular would benefit by adjusting the whole dealer room experience to make it quieter and less hectic. I love computer and console games, but they need their own corner...or at least a noise ordinance

Jay Tummelson, of Rio Grande Games (for whom I have demoed at four Gen Con's), is given demo space in the board game area and hooks up with a single dealer to make sure that his games are available in quantity. I don't know the specifics of their finances, but he spends all his time demoing (and I don't just mean the restricted hours of the dealer room) and someone else handles selling his stuff. It must work, it's been happening for years. Why couldn't Forgies do that?

If you ran shifts where someone with basic knowledge of the Forge wares and as many cashiers as were warranted (one?) were on duty in the dealers' room, while everyone else were demoing in a set-aside area, particularly if it were a high-traffic area (tables on the edge of the hall?), I bet the results would be positive. How would this translate to all other small-press companies? I guess if there were too many, it would break down. Are there?

Also, What if the convention sponsored a give-away or something where attendees got a passport stamped for every different system that they demoed from a vendor? And the folks with the most are rewarded or entered in a drawing or something. (Has this been done? It seems like I'm stealing the idea - maybe from an obnoxious WoTC card game promotion last year or two with an announcer (again, too loud) and a wheel of fortune kind of thing?) It would be something that the con could offer the dealers that would encourage people to play demos and simultaneously be something that the con would be offering the attendees that would be kind of fun.

Chris

Hello,

Peter, thanks! That kind of breakdown and mutual knowledge is key, and I hope people recognize the importance of communicating about this stuff with the owner of GenCon.

I'd like to throw in my support for Peter's point: the last thing I at least am interested in is any kind of break for being an independent publisher. The entrepeneurial discount, for instance, is available to any first-time exhibitor with a single game, independent or not. I like it that way.

What I'm looking for are best described as opportunities that are exploitable. By "exploitable," I don't mean "to the detriment of non-independent publishers," but rather, "spot on for independent ones or for anyone else who practices the same strategies."

Here's an idea: bite-size demo tables set up around and about the exhibition hall. Any exhibitor can make use of them on a sign-up basis, and they don't cost a thing. No exhibitor can make use of more than one of them, for one session, per day. You run a game for a short period and hand out some promo, then head back to your booth.

This is useful for anyone, if their marketing strategy promotes play as part of the sales process. Everyone gets a shot. But it's especially handy for people who fall into the category that Ralph described so well above.

Are there identifiable potential problems? Sure! What if every exhibitor wants a slot and there aren't enough? What if exhibitor X cheats and sneaks in on other exhibitors' slots with the other guys' collusion? What if, what if, what if? So, we enter into some dialogue about it and see whether some of these can be headed off with good policy design. If not, we try another idea.

Best,
Ron

So to bring this to some sort of point, in exploring ideas of things Gen Con can do to help independent publishers, I need ideas for policies, promotions, whatever that I can apply consistently. A policy like "give independent publishers a price break" isn't very good because then I have to explain to my bigger customers why the smaller companies are getting an advantage,

On the other hand, a policy like "have an area where companies can purchase a 4'x4' table" instead of having a 10' x 10' booth being the minimum might work since, if WizKids really wanted to, they could buy a 4'x4' table. Hmm...perhaps this area could have a centralized cash register system so that small companies don't have to bother with credit card machines and such...sorta like how we run the art show (we sell space, much cheaper than exh hall, plus take 10% of sales).

Chris, I like a some of your ideas a lot. That passport idea would be a much better idea than the freebies that people get for solving the puzzles all over the con, IMO. Same effect, more company exposure. I can't see how any company wouldn't want to be in on that, no matter how big.

Jay (Rio Grande) I believe just reserves a jillion slots. The con then nicely puts them all together in one spot, and they theoretically run them on the normal schedule. In reality he just grabs you as you go by and asks for generics. Anyhow, if we had enough games (and we do) we could put that many slots together, I'm sure. In which case the nice GenCon man might give us a room? :-) OTOH, we've discussed the idea before, and there are other potential problems.

As far as Ron's idea, the problem I see is space. That is, the space costs GenCon in terms of opportunity cost. If they only set a aside a very little excess space in the Exhibitor Hall, then you have your scheduling problems moreso. If they use another space, well, then we might as well be running demos per the Rio Grande model above.

I do like Peter's idea of the little tables. I'm seeing an "Indie Market" sort of place (gotta love the idea of a bazar atmosphere). OTOH, assuming you can't merge booths, then we loose our co-op advantages. Which is problematic. I'd also assume that they'd cost more per square foot?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Jay (Rio Grande) I believe just reserves a jillion slots. The con then nicely puts them all together in one spot, and they theoretically run them on the normal schedule. In reality he just grabs you as you go by and asks for generics.

First off, thanks to Peter for his excellent enthusiasm and explanations regarding his business.

I want to give his comments and other ideas posted here some thought, but I definitely wanted to chime in with a perhaps-too-obvious point.

I'm deeply concerned about any solution that would put indie publishers in disparate locations. I could foresee small tables dotting the landscape. I see this as, unintentionally, divide and conquer.

From my perspective, the success of the Forge booth is the result of a critical mass of 1) staff 2) games 3) social energy level and excitement about indie viability. Not only were we selling because we had others helping us with "man-hours" in customer service and practical matters. We were selling well because we had a social verve unparalleled in any other small or moderate publisher's booth on its own. I argue strongly that we must have a common geography on the convention floor.

I realize this is probably very obvious, but I thought it was worth mentioning so that Peter might consider it. Thanks!

Speaking not as an independent roleplaying game publisher but as a player and purchaser of independent roleplaying games, I am rather fond of Peter's notion of a separate "indie room", run like the art show... a lower cost for vendors, showcased with other independents, and much more visible overall, at least in my mind, than individual or group booths hidden amongst the morass that is the Exhibit Hall.

PeterAdkison wrote: Cool posts. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
A policy like "give independent publishers a price break" isn't very good because then I have to explain to my bigger customers why the smaller companies are getting an advantage, when in fact, it generally works the other way around (volume discounts are the norm in business). On the other hand, a policy like "have an area where companies can purchase a 4'x4' table" instead of having a 10' x 10' booth being the minimum might work since, if WizKids really wanted to, they could buy a 4'x4' table. Hmm...perhaps this area could have a centralized cash register system so that small companies don't have to bother with credit card machines and such...sorta like how we run the art show (we sell space, much cheaper than exh hall, plus take 10% of sales).

As I understand Peter (and Ron's right, major thanks to Peter for starting this discussion and sharing his knowledge and perspective), an "indie room" wouldn't work. But maybe a demo room. Anyone willing to abide by the rules can be there. Essentially none of the loud, splashy promo stuff from the exhibit hall - just people, paper, and dice. Or cards. Or boards, with tokens/miniatures. You get the idea.

Financially, if this demo space is cheaper (and smaller slices are available), I guess the con needs to make sure it doesn't lead to an exodus from the exhibition hall. The Forge isn't the ONLY people that run demo's in the exhibit hall . . . Maybe sales in the demo room can ONLY be what is being demoed (1-3 'books' per 4'x4' table? Table/day?) So companies with a large catalog and/or many supplements still need to be in the exhibit hall to move a reasonable volume of merchandise. I'm not sure how easy that would be to enforce - perhaps the central purchasing point (a service that certainly warrants payment from the demo-ers, either via a percentage on sales or indirectly in the raw space rental fee) has a list of what can be "for sale" in that room, and that's all they sell. Other people trying to sell (the demoed game or something else) get the . . . consequences.

I guess the idea is, split the demo space off from the exhibit space. Bigger companies will choose to be in both (heck, Ron-as-Adept-Press might be big enough for that to make sense for him) - and demos are still permitted in the exhibit hall - but smaller folk will go the demo-only route, and more intensive demos from anyone are better suited to the seperate space.

And yes, I agree with Matt - the ability for a like-minded group of people like us Forge-crazies to "band together" in this demo room would be important. So that if 10 different games want to share a 5 table spot in the demo room, that should be possible. As long as the 5 tables are paid for (via up-front fees and/or percentage of sales, whatever), that should work for the con.

Another possible way of organizing this is the convention-long "demo event" - maybe the con could set up a room this way, and the event tickets could reduce the price to the demoing companies even further?

My experience at the Forge booth the last two GenCon's tells me that the combination of demos, sales, and a group enthusiasm for a set of games really works, but other than the raw traffic concentration, the exhibit hall environment (in terms of both aesthetics and economics) is a less than ideal location for doing that.

Gordon

Welcome to the Forge, Peter; it's good to see you.

I hate to admit that I've never, in twenty-three years of gaming, been to GenCon. Life has not been so constituted that I have ever had time and money simultaneously in all that time. I will remedy that one day; I'm beginning with east coast cons, where travel time is lower and I can find friends or family to provide free housing to cut costs.

Thus I'm speaking from what I've read here, mostly.

It seems to me that one of the big problems cited has not been adequately addressed: the conflict between booths that have loud video games, multimedia presentations, and sound systems and those trying to rely on human contact. I think the solution to this may be rather simple to implement: divide the exhibit hall into two sections, and state specifically that any exhibitor using any electronic or multi-media presentations or attention grabbers which might be distracting (including but not limited to video or television systems, sound amplification, amplified music....) must be located in section one; those who will not be using such equipment and may opt to be located in section two if they desire. Charging the same price is certainly reasonable; you could even justify charging more for those who require electrical power for their equipment (at some point the Con pays for that, even if it's indirectly).

It might even work (as well or better) to have two exhibit halls distinguished by this feature. Electronic video games would automatically be in the one, along with the variety of other egregiously loud presenters--but the other would not be some ghetto of independent game companies, as certainly there would be many exhibitors who find the electronic noise distracting and counterproductive to their efforts. That's more a question of the facilities, though.

Certainly the "quiet" room would still be noisy and distracting in some ways. You'd have your hawkers whose ability to project obviates the need for a sound system; whether live music would be allowed in the quiet room would probably have to be considered; gamers are going to be noisy. But at least you would have determined that those who are intent on being loud will have to compete with others who are equally intent on being loud, and those who are not won't.

Anyway, it's an idea that addresses the problem. I hope it helps.

--M. J. Young

while michael's points are all entirely valid, let's try to stay on topic:

what can bigger conventions (like GenCon) do to help support and encourage the presence of indie rpgs?

-L

(don't mean to be bossy, i just take my role as moderator seriously!)
:)

Ron (I think) said this one, which I didn't see addressed in Peter's comments directly:

* Encourage and facilitate booth sharing.

Imagine if, say, just two of the independent game companies at GenCon Indy, each with their own single-slot booth, chose instead to throw their lot in with "The Forge Booth". That would have doubled the size of the Forge booth (Ron got a double-size endcap, I think, this would've made it a quad). More room for tables, more "barkers" (and thus potentially more sales), and a smaller price per company, after it was split between them all.

Maybe I just have delusions of grandeur, but I like this idea. Of course, it would need more than /just/ GenCon to make it happen, but if GenCon could encourage and facilitate "seeking booth-sharing" type stuff, that'd be a step...

Ha! That reminds me. (Thanks Alexander)

In 2001, Adept Press had its own single-space booth. In 2002, I shared a three-booth space with Key 20 Publishing for the first Forge Booth. When two or more companies share a booth at GenCon, the current rules state that one of them is the primary; that one company submits the application with the other two applications attached.

And all that is well and good ...

... except that only the primary company gets the "points" for purposes of booth position privileges. In the case of 2002, that was Jason. What these points do is, over the years, give you some clout for future booth position requests (close to the front, over to the right, whatever). I should make it clear that Jason and I split the basic booth costs, but that I picked up most of the secondary costs concerning furniture and similar.

So for 2003, the only points I had (as I was the primary this year) came from my little weenie booth in 2001. Which is why we were in the back part of the hall and (if post-GenCon talk can be trusted) missed about 30% of the traffic, and why we had to be next to Upper Deck's megaphone monstrosity, and so on.

Now, is this some grand injustice that I'm complaining about? No. The point system has to work in some way, and someone has to be next to the big loud booths. And arguably if I cared enough about the points for Adept Press, then Adept Press should have been the primary in 2002. (As I recall, it was something of a toss-up and we didn't care about it much at the time.)

But I'm interested in alternate point policies, or whether something applies like this: say I'd told GenCon, "Hey, I want the points from last year's booth, and here's Jason's confirmation that it's OK with him." This is hypothetical, i.e., I didn't do this and Jason didn't confirm it, etc. Just an idea. Would GenCon say, "Oh, why look, Adept Press, you have way more points now."

Notice all the potential problems. Open up something like this, and you'd have to employ a whole new staff member to negotiate and adjudicate each situation, and each situation would be compounded by the companies who were best buddies last year arguing about who gets the points this year. Sure, lots of trouble; I know. But let's discuss it.

Best,
Ron

Internally the matter of points could be settled by having the company that recieves them pay a somewhat higher proportion, right? I mean, that can be negotiated amongst ourselves without getting the GenCon people involved. Consideration would be given to who actually had plans for the following year as part of the negotiation.

I think it would be a true beaurocratic mess to have the points be transferable, and one open to abuse.

OTOH, if the points could be divided up between the participants at the Con, when registering for the year for which they'd be recieved, that would be simple. Instead of saying Adept gets 10 points, say that we want Adept to get 5 and Key 20 to get 5. Or whatever distribution is sensible for the attendees, or was negotiated per the above.

Could that be done?

Mike

I also like the idea of a demo room run similar to the art show. To address the "fairness" angle, make it maximum of one 4' x 4' table per company and bill it as the "Variety Demo Room." Have the program book play it up as something different under the sun. Keep a prohibition on noise level and mulitmedia and sure, WotC, WizKids and UpperDeck can all have a table in there with us, if they want. But Just One Table, each. Could become a major stopping point for the jaded con-goer.

Hello,

Here are some more thoughts and musings.

ONE
The idea of a field of small tables, each presided over by a confused, isolated, miserable, and now woefully-exposed small-press publisher, is incredibly depressing. I consider this idea to be dreadful; it would make a ghetto out of independents. Think of most of the first-time and independent publishers at GenCon - huddled in their booths, smiling sheepishly at passers-by, trying to feel good at four sales a day. Now put them all in a big open field, one small table each.

Now try inspiring a Forge-style dynamic at your table in the middle of that.

Forget that.

TWO
Sound pollution is turning out to be a serious problem at GenCon. If Upper Deck wants to create an echo-y sound-stage out of their booth area, fine ... but amplifiers, microphones, and continuously-rolling film loops extend off of that space and into others' space. If you have to raise your voice for a customer in your booth area to hear you, then the other booth has effectively damaged your sales.

This isn't about "competition." It's about direct sabotage, frankly. I might as well go over to other booths and rip down their displays, as project a movie soundtrack or exercise some kind of microphone activity next to them.

I suggest that amplified sound levels be strictly enforced and, perhaps, certain sorts of sound systems simply be prohibited.

THREE
Here's an idea. Pick some space in the con area with fairly heavy traffic but without some other company's commercial activity going on.

Four people run up. Very quickly, they unfold a card table, put a cloth over it, unfold chairs, and open a notebook. They slam into a role-playing scene, with great verve and enthusiasm, playing for about 20 minutes. If anyone sidles up, they get a pamphlet, nothing more. Then, just as quickly and with no discernable signal, and most especially no explanations, they fold up, pack up, and run off.

The pamphlet includes a map to the Forge booth and a brief blurb about the game being played.

Peter, is this allowed? Or more accurately, is it not prohibited? Notice that it's not disruptive toward others' sales, unlike the occasional LARP group that wanders through the exhibit hall (and whom I always shoo away from my booth, to their amazement).

Best,
Ron

abzu writes:

My one concern, where i break with most everyone else here, is that it should be a protected zone. Wizkids and Mongoose and WoTC shouldn't be allowed in. Not that I want to create prejudice or divide, but in "free market competition" we can't compete. We can't front the money or resources necessary to edge out Wizkids. Because a it isn't really a "free market." The buy-in is thousands of dollars. And a company like that can afford a booth. Individual game designers, generally, cannot. Having a cheaper, smaller option for said indies provides them the opportunity to participate without going broke. $100-$200 is relatively equivalent in our budgets as $10k is for WoTC.

Jay (Rio Grande) I believe just reserves a jillion slots. The con then nicely puts them all together in one spot, and they theoretically run them on the normal schedule. In reality he just grabs you as you go by and asks for generics.

From my perspective, the success of the Forge booth is the result of a critical mass of 1) staff 2) games 3) social energy level and excitement about indie viability. Not only were we selling because we had others helping us with "man-hours" in customer service and practical matters. We were selling well because we had a social verve unparalleled in any other small or moderate publisher's booth on its own. I argue strongly that we must have a common geography on the convention floor.

I realize this is probably very obvious, but I thought it was worth mentioning so that Peter might consider it. Thanks!

Mike Holmes writes:

OTOH, if the points could be divided up between the participants at the Con, when registering for the year for which they'd be recieved, that would be simple. Instead of saying Adept gets 10 points, say that we want Adept to get 5 and Key 20 to get 5. Or whatever distribution is sensible for the attendees, or was negotiated per the above.

Could that be done?

ONE
The idea of a field of small tables, each presided over by a confused, isolated, miserable, and now woefully-exposed small-press publisher, is incredibly depressing.

TWO
Sound pollution is turning out to be a serious problem at GenCon.

I suggest that amplified sound levels be strictly enforced and, perhaps, certain sorts of sound systems simply be prohibited.

THREE
Here's an idea. Pick some space in the con area with fairly heavy traffic but without some other company's commercial activity going on.

Four people run up. Very quickly, they unfold a card table, put a cloth over it, unfold chairs, and open a notebook. They slam into a role-playing scene, with great verve and enthusiasm, playing for about 20 minutes. If anyone sidles up, they get a pamphlet, nothing more. Then, just as quickly and with no discernable signal, and most especially no explanations, they fold up, pack up, and run off.

The pamphlet includes a map to the Forge booth and a brief blurb about the game being played.

Peter, is this allowed? Or more accurately, is it not prohibited? Notice that it's not disruptive toward others' sales, unlike the occasional LARP group that wanders through the exhibit hall (and whom I always shoo away from my booth, to their amazement).

Hello,

One thing about my little guerilla-theater RPG idea that I didn't make clear, was that I envisioned it to happen outside of the exhibit hall. Probably in an open space, not a high-traffic hallway, and certainly not in among the lines for the entry tickets. Remember the escalators right next to the food court? Think of the space just next to the lower end, where no one really walks. Or remember that area with couches after you went up the escalators, and across the street? That sort of place.

And also, as I say, about twenty minutes worth of play/demo - that's it. Peter, what do you think - does that sound more do-able/allowable?

Best,
Ron

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The idea of a field of small tables, each presided over by a confused, isolated, miserable, and now woefully-exposed small-press publisher, is incredibly depressing.

Darn, I thought we were getting somewhere with that concept. But your point is well taken.

I didn't look, but I assume all those large areas are pretty flexible in the way they're divided. Would it really create a traffic-management nightmare to run the built-in dividers half way across the room so that it looked something like:
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And then require AV presentations to take place in one of the end cul de sacs? People like The Forge would then have the option of choosing to be in the opposite.

Also, how do you measure the value to the con of increasing the aisle space? On the face of things, it would seem to clearly decrease the number of booths possible and thus the income, but I know several people, myself included, who limit the amount spent in there not based on income or budget (we're all grown up and have professional IT positions now :-) but just because it's so unpleasant to deal with the crowds and the noise. I think that bigger aisle space would be a selling point to your dealer-customers, but maybe it's too abstract for most of them to appreciate (when compared to dollars that have to be shelled out).

Chris

Hi Luke,

Perhaps we're working with different mental images of the space we're talking about. In my image, you can see a bunch of tables like a little sea. Looking over them, you can see everyone at all of the tables, assuming they're sitting.

If everyone else at all the tables includes people like Ralph Mazza, Matt Snyder, Cynthia Celeste Miller, Danielle Hall, and so on, then great! You have a bazaar situation, kind of a smorgasbord of fun. Everyone's playing games and demo'ing systems and directing people to other tables.

But as Matt Snyder pointed out above, this sort of behavior is not typical of most publishers at their exhibit booth. You did a lot of working the crowd around the exhibit hall; I did a lot of booth contacting, talking to people who were publishing their own stuff. Excepting the veterans who have chiseled out their success-market already (e.g. Apophis), it's a sad bunch.

They don't know how to talk up their games. They don't know how to run a demo. They don't know how to impress passers-by with enthusiasm. They don't know how to provide fun in a five-minute interaction. What do they do? They sit there, smile desperately, and hope someone will pay attention to them. When I buy their game (often their first sale of the day) and give them Forge contact information, I practically have to pry their hands off me to escape, they're so starved for contact. When I think of the bucks they're dropping on booth costs, travel, and lodging, it's too painful to contemplate.

I've seen this consistently over the past few years, and by all accounts based on talking to long-term "industry" folk, it's typical. In some cases (I count four, maybe, in the last decade), they become raging successes over time. Most of them fade away after one GenCon and one feeble foray into distribution. They are the flotsam and jetsam of the show.

For outreach purposes, I make contact with these publishers, and who knows, maybe some help or good is accomplished. And maybe some do great without me in any way. But packing in the horde of them in one large space ... even if Burning Wheel is blazing away four tables away, and if Dust Devils is emptying its pistols ten tables away, I shudder to imagine trying to sell in an environment where even a third of the tables correspond to my observations above. I anticipate that potential customers would take one look and avoid the whole ghetto, instantly.

I'd be much happier if three or four of the independent publishers who have their shit together simply got a booth together, and then a few more got another booth together, and if they were in the same aisle. That was essentially the case for GenCon 2002 and the whole aisle was jumpin'.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote:
One thing about my little guerilla-theater RPG idea

Oh, I dunno, Michael. I think it's worth a shot, if the pamphlets being handed out are nifty. Perhaps my image of the actual play is a little different, too - I'm thinking of infectious enthusiasm, not huddled interior-focused shared autism (my usual description of observing role-playing).

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: Oh, I dunno, Michael. I think it's worth a shot, if the pamphlets being handed out are nifty. Perhaps my image of the actual play is a little different, too - I'm thinking of infectious enthusiasm, not huddled interior-focused shared autism (my usual description of observing role-playing).

Hi Jeffrey,

I'm using "bazaar" in a positive sense - a sort of acres-covering Forge booth space, less centralized in terms of a common vision but still full of verve and highly-localized fun. That's consistent with Peter's and Luke's interpretation of the idea, I think. And as you say, using the Forge booth from 2002 and 2003 as a model, that'd be cool. But I can't tell what your point is - you focus on the word "bazaar" but then what?

Am I reading you correctly, that you agree with me that the proposed open-tables space would probably fail at this goal? It's very hard to understand from your post what you're supporting.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: I'm using "bazaar" in a positive sense - a sort of acres-covering Forge booth space, less centralized in terms of a common vision but still full of verve and highly-localized fun. That's consistent with Peter's and Luke's interpretation of the idea, I think. And as you say, using the Forge booth from 2002 and 2003 as a model, that'd be cool. But I can't tell what your point is - you focus on the word "bazaar" but then what?

Am I reading you correctly, that you agree with me that the proposed open-tables space would probably fail at this goal? It's very hard to understand from your post what you're supporting.

Uh, if it's a matter of doing Guerilla-theatre stuff, I think that's definitely doable. That is, there are already tables out there, and people play on em. Who could know if it was a demo or not? In a sense, every game is a demo of it's product.

The thing is, that would preclude hawking or selling games there as it's outside of the hall. Or, rather, that's the only thing that I'm aware of that's currently prohibited in those spaces (Mr. Adkison will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong). So it's definitely do-able from a play sense.

But then where's your bazaar atmosphere? I mean, didn't we have a thread a while back in which we discussed such ideas, and they were shot down because of the no-sale clause? I can't see Peter changing his mind on that policy, as, if he did, every company would want to be able to roam and sell in the halls, leading to mass chaos.

Or am I missing something in the plan?

Mike

Hi Mike,

I think you're fielding two discussions at once, which are unrelated.

1. The guerrilla-game 20 minute thing isn't about sales right then and there. The only value added is to pass out the pamphlets.

2. Speaking for myself only, I'm quite happy with the bazaar concept being limited to a Forge booth or to anyone else who gets such a booth going. I'm logged as versus the multi-table play space in the exhibit hall, as currently described.

3. As far as sales and "real" (i.e. long) demo play is concerned, that's terra incognita. The current system doesn't attract me, but that doesn't mean something's wrong with it or that anything should change.

Best,
Ron

Okay, it looks like there are three concepts floating about, so I thought I'd try and summarize and post my thoughts on each.

(1) Guerilla-theater RPG. The issue I have with this is that it violates two policies: no hand-billing (passing out flyers) or free demos outside the booth. There are two reasons behind these polices. One is to protect my revenues by steering as much business toward the booth as possible so that exhibitors are highly motivated to buy booths. The other is that if handbilling is unlimited, very quickly we end up with a real litter problem as many people just take flyers and throw them on the floor.

I will add that my heart isn't really in either of these policies. My memories of being a small game publisher (WotC, from 1990-1993) are very traumatic and I didn't like these policies when I was "on the other side of the coin." To tell you the truth, as long as it's small companies and they're being respectful, we tend to look the other way. These policies are mainly targetted at companies (I won't give examples) who have grossly abused the situation by not buying any booth, ad space, or sponsorship, yet still expect to use Gen Con as a marketing opportunity and will do things like set up operations in the open gaming area and run free demos and sell games on the sly. (By the way, this is why TSR killed the open gaming area for awhile--we brought it back because it just seems silly to have a convention without an open gaming area, but we're apprehensive about it.)

But I hate the "you're not supposed to do this, but go ahead and we'll look the other way" answer. I'd rather have a more permissive policy, and perhaps this will inspire me to write one.

(2) Noise levels. I liked Christopher Weeks' post with the diagram. That's somethign like what I was thinking of. I'm not sure what we'll do here, but noise is a problem that's bigger than just indie RPGs, so I'm very motivated to do something. I'm definitely going to discuss this with Jeanette and see what we can come up with. I was very inspired when I went to Spellen Spectakel in Eindhoven, Netherlands last year. They have HUGE curtains that hang down like dividers around the exhibit hall. The cool thing is that these curtains were spray painted so they were very beautiful and they dampened noise too. We've thought about something like this but have been intimidated by the cost (not just to make them, but rigging, transportation, and storage too--point of trivia: the old TSR Gen Con castle cost $100,000 per year to maintain!).

I do have to post the caveat that managing the exhibit hall is perhaps the most difficult part of the convention to manage. Most exhibitors have very strong feelings about where they want to be in the hall, there's priority points to worry about, and add to that the big exhibitors like WotC and Upper Deck, who we'd like to put in the back so that no one has to go around them (and to draw traffic), but since they're the biggest companies they have priority points and should be able to go wherever they like. ::pausing to catch my breath:: Add to that the idea of having a quiet zone and it's adding one more big criteria to an already very challenging problem. God that sounds whiny! But we need to do something.

(3) The small company area. Without a clear consensus among you (the most likely participants) that this is a great idea I'm very reluctant to recommend this to Jeanette, for some of the same reasons as #2 above, which is that it further complicates the exhibit hall. Maybe I'm giving Ron too much influence here, but his indie-rpg banner does seem to have a decent following, so I'm really looking for an idea with The Forge at the top of the sign-up sheet. (I'm sure I'll get flamed for this one!)

I'm sensing this thread is nearing an end, but I'll monitor for awhile in case someone comes up with another suggestion, and I'll come back with a follow up after I've had time to discuss these ideas internally a bit and contemplate. I think we've made some progress, in that #1 MAY lead to some more permissive policies (and if not abused could be happening anyway), #2 will PROBABLY result in something, and #3 is probably a no-go.

Cheers!

Ron Edwards wrote: 3. As far as sales and "real" (i.e. long) demo play is concerned, that's terra incognita. The current system doesn't attract me, but that doesn't mean something's wrong with it or that anything should change.

PeterAdkison wrote: Guerilla-theater RPG. The issue I have with this is that it violates two policies: no hand-billing (passing out flyers) or free demos outside the booth. There are two reasons behind these polices. One is to protect my revenues by steering as much business toward the booth as possible so that exhibitors are highly motivated to buy booths. The other is that if handbilling is unlimited, very quickly we end up with a real litter problem as many people just take flyers and throw them on the floor.

Hello,

M.J., that's a license I'd be willing to pay for.

Again, Peter, thanks for all the work here. Your last post is everything that a publisher of any size could ask for.

Second, to Mike regarding demo policy, I don't have a problem with the demo hall as it stands. I have my problem with it, which is completely isolated to myself as a publisher. I don't recommend any particular change or ask for any attention to that problem.

Based on Peter's comments, I think we've closed the thread. Any secondary issues ("So what's your problem with the demo hall, Ron?") can go to other threads.

Best,
Ron

Not being a publisher and not having attended a GenCon event (yet) i still think these suggestions may generate some interesting ideas.

On noise levels: instead of a loud side/quiet side. Perhaps some sort of sliding scale which points allow you to fudge around, but only to a point. I don't know how practical this is since you do get sponsorships from the big guys.

On geurilla marketing: you've already stated that you don't sell all your booths... Would it be possible to structure the hall layout in such a way that a short (30 min.) time slot could be purchased in one of these slots after booth purchase is finished. These could be rather low costed (for exhibitors) since no one else wanted the space and since you can never count on one existing where you need it, and low costed for the organizers (who have already payed for the space without seeing any return). Perhaps even tie this in with the liscense idea. If you buy a liscense you can use any of these slots for up to 30 minutes at a time provided that they are free.

If you do a liscense in this way then you end up with the assumption of risk by the liscensee since the space may be in use, but it allows you to sanction this type of tactic (and get payed) without messing up fire lanes or blocking traffic. It's sort of like having a fluid booth system. Permanent operations can't be set up there since you only have 30 minutes to an hour, but it can be used to stage some pretty crazy, short setup/breakdown marketing.

Unfortunately, this could present an incredibly aggravating enforcement problem. You would have to either trust in exhibitors' honesty or police the areas to make sure that no one is overstaying...

Just some thoughts of mine as i read over this...

Thomas

Hello,

I repeat, this thread is closed. No more posting here, please.

Best,
Ron