I am researching options for magic in a medieval fantasy RPG. I know I don't like the memorization system in D&D. It doesn't make sense.

I like the idea of magic points. Something even more simple is the idea that casting spells will cost hit points. Basically it drains your life energy to produce magic.

I also know I don't like the idea of having a huge list of spells you have to choose from. I see the wizard as a creative spirit who should be able to shape her magic. Preferably, all possible magical effects could fall under different schools or spheres. White Wolf's Mage is like this, I think.

The idea I am trying to develop is basically, if you want to throw a fireball, then you'll need 1 magic point in Fire and 1 in Kinetics, to create fire and then make it move towards your foe.... or something like this. Maybe if you had 2 points in Kinetic magic, then you can even make the fireball act like a smart bomb and actually "chase" its moving target, or something like this. Are there any medieval fantasy rpg's that use a system like this, so I don't have to reinvent the wheel?

Does anybody have any other ideas or options for how to treat magic? Any other systems in existence that work well? Any experiences with magic points or custom spells or any other?

Peace,

Sonja

I suggest you look at Ars Magica. The rules can be downloaded for free at http://www.atlas-games.com/. [They also make at least one Ars Magica/d20 crossover adventure. Perhaps it contains information about how to combine elements of the Ars Magica system with d20. I don't know.]

The Riddle of Steel sorcery system works with "spheres" as well, and magic ages the caster because it's drawing its energy from his body itself (no spell points etc to track, but you get oolder the more you cast, unless you're careful).

Brian.

Hey Sonja,

You may also want to check out the Talislanta 4th Edition magic system. A small overview of the game, including the basics of the magic system, can be downloaded at the url below.

http://www.talislanta.com/talislanta/download.htm

-Chris

Sonja wrote: Does anybody have any other ideas or options for how to treat magic? Any other systems in existence that work well? Any experiences with magic points or custom spells or any other?

There was a suggestion once a short while ago. I could be misremembering, but I think the term was "practical magic," where magic was simply a catch-all mundane problem solver. The example used on that thread was something like:

The 'locksmith' or 'breaking & entering' abilities could be used to pick the lock of a door, but so could magic. The locksmith would get some locksmithing tools, the b&e character would use a credit card slid into the door frame, the magician would wave his hand across the doorknob while mumbling some magic words. In either case, a success would result in the same thing: an unlocked door. The only difference is color.

Perhaps I was interpreting the question too narrowly. I was trying to name a system like the one being sketched in the question. My favorite approach is found in Hedge Magic.

M. J. Young wrote: I've seen four general ways to limit spells:

• D&D-type spell lists with pre-filled spell slots which are learned and cast (and although it seems odd, it was drawn from a respected fantasy author's work).• Point expenditure systems whereby you deplete a resource to cast whatever spells you wish (aging would be such a system, with a more solidly in-game resource).• Success/failure based limitations in which the chance to botch deters excessive use of magic and the possibility of failure prevents the magic-user from overrunning the game without coming to the point where he is "out of magic" (which both of the above eventually reach).• Seat-of-the-pants systems in which an arbiter decides what is consistent with the expectations of the group and implements it accordingly--basically freeform with a referee (or referees).

How about Unknown Armies' postmodern magic system? Each magical school has a set of obsessive behaviors one must perform in order to gain charges. The greater the sacrifice or symbolism of the act, the more intense a magical charge will have been earned. There are also taboos one must avoid doing or else all charges will be lost. Charges are spent to cast spells of a very focused, but equally potent, magical nature.

According to the game text, the system goals were to make an adept no more or less powerful than someone with a gun. I happen to like these magical rules since following the obsessions can lead to interesting plot seeds.

I just thought of a new system for magic: KARMA

Your character starts with 5 Karma points. Every time you cast a spell, you make a roll. The higher your Magick rating and the easier the spell, the easier the roll is to succeed.

If the spell works, you GAIN a Karma point. If the spell doesn't work, you lose 3 Karma points (the rule of 3 many Wiccans speak of).

If you reach 0 Karma, you lose the ability to cast more magick for the rest of the day. Every new morning, you get your full 5 Karma back.

Basically this means, you can keep casting spells as long as they are within your range of ease. Any character, even at lowel levels, can cast more powerful spells, but the risk is higher that you'll fail, and you may lose Karma.

As your character gains more point in Magic over the course of the campaign, spells with higher difficulty levels become easier for you because of your bonus, and more basic spells become nearly automatic successes.

What I like of this idea is you actually GAIN points rather than lose them for casting most magic. It's always more fun as a player to win things than lose them. And it gives you the power to manage your Karma and decide if you want to play safe and cast easy spells or risk casting a harder spell and maybe lose Karma.

I figure that most spells would have a 75% success rate, so basically you fail (and lose 3 karma points) for every 3 spells you succeed (and win back 3 karma).

And the most easy cantrip-like spells would still have a maximum success rate of, say 93%, basically to prevent players from overusing them as a way to gamble and rebuy Karma that way, hmm...

I'll think about it more...

Sonja

I know a lot of players who would start out the day by casting 5 or 6 easy cantrip spells everyday to add enough Karma to be sure of several castings later. Say, preserve food, repel insects, clean clothes, clean body, spice food... ok...so I made all my 93% rolls... I've got 10 Karma now I can fail at least three times today, and still have another chance at a spell.

Which is ok too, if thats within the realm of what you had in mind...several low level 'color' spells...with the occassional riskier big spell.

Success is its own reward, and doubly so with the system. Which could be cool...
"Guess this just isn't my day..."- as the second failed spell of the day leaches away the casters remaining Karma (out of 5)

Does anything special happen if KArma is sucked down into negative?
For instance if I failed the first two spells I tried, I'd be at -1 (technically)...will there be any repercussions between 0, -1, -2 ? or is it all "0 Empty"?

Sonja... wow. I like that. I really like that. If I didn't already rely heavily on a "points" system (and have it all written and the like), I'd probably borrow it from you.

Sonja wrote: I am researching options for magic in a medieval fantasy RPG.

I suppose you could try researching people's beliefs about magic during the medieval period and then work up rules for that.

Does anybody have any other ideas or options for how to treat magic? Any other systems in existence that work well? Any experiences with magic points or custom spells or any other?

HeroQuest treats magic as an ability mostly just like any other ability, but instead of rolling against the 'mundane' difficulty of a task you roll against either the magical resistance of the target or a fairly low default difficulty.

For example (from the book), I have a magical Tree Leaping ability and a mundane Jump skill. If I try to jump over a tree then I roll using my Jump skill against a difficulty based on their height of the tree. If I use my magical Tree Leaping ability I roll my Tree Leaping magic ability against a default difficulty, regardless of how high the tree is. If the tree was actualy a magical tree and home to a forest spirit, I might have to roll my magical Tree Lepaing ability against the magical resistance of the spirit.

There are no spell points or such in HeroQuest, although there are Hero Points that can be used to boost any ability roll and are often used with magical abilities.

The game is set in the fantasy work of Glorantha, but the west of Glorantha has lots of Medieval colour and Wizardry magic has a very medieval church kind of feel, plus some elements simmilar to Kabbalism which was very influential on historical hermetic magic.


Simon Hibbs

I'll back Simon up on that one. I love how HQ does things (mostly ;-)).

One of the reasons for it's success in magic is the Effects First design. That is, players buy game effects, more or less, and then drape them with in-game description of any sort.

The original game that did this was Hero System. And it's still the champion, IMO. That is, if you want to create a magic system, just look at the latest edition of Fantasy Hero, which has 67 pages devoted to nothing but how to make up a system. Not systems, how to make your own.

The point is that, even if you don't use Hero, it'll make you think of everything you need to think of to ensure that you have a system that works internally. It's a very interesting process, IMO.


Another consideration is the game that this is going into. You really can't make the "perfect" magic system (or help another) unless you consider the game as a whole. So, is there anywhere we can reference the rest of the game?

Mike

John Kim wrote: I agree that these are the most common ways among fantasy-genre RPGs to limit magic, but all of these are based on an arbitrary assumption. Namely, it is based on making magic effects sufficiently powerful that they would be game-breaking without restricting times per day that they can be done. If you just moderate the effects or equivalently increase the cost to acquire, then you don't need this limit.

which I referenced when I wrote:

• Success/failure based limitations in which the chance to botch deters excessive use of magic and the possibility of failure prevents the magic-user from overrunning the game without coming to the point where he is "out of magic" (which both of the above eventually reach).

I really like that Karma system, I think it would be fun to use. It's a cool idea. But doesn't it still rely on selections of spells? You still can't make up your own spells "on the fly" can you?

The two conceptual restrictions I see here are:
1. The limitation on power
2. The limitation on flexibility

The Karma system addresses the power issue quite well. But what about flexibility. Other than simply having the GM referee the effects of character generated magic, is there any other method that allows character's to create a new magical effect (spell) during mele?

I've seen the Will and Word method used, but it's far too powerfull. Basically multi-wish capability with a few restrictions and a chance to succeed. I've heard of elemental combinations like you mentioned (kinetic magic + pyrotic magic for a fireball). I think I've even seen this in a video game RPG somewhere. I'm sure there are some card-based systems that let you use combinations of playing cards to "combine" different effects and create new spells on the fly.

My system is similar to what's already out there, simply because it works, and I haven't bothered to spend the time figuring out anything fancier. I have spell lists, and learning spells (hyperwave patterns and formulas in my case) takes time and advancement points. Limitations on power are constricted by hyperwave points. It would be pretty easy to apply the Karma based system you described, but it still wouldn't get around the list and allow character's to create their own patterns and formulas.

I'd really like to see a good system for the creation of new effects "on the fly" during mele. If every character in a game was capable of doing this, it would really give the creative players with good knowledge of the system an edge. Your experience as a player would be reflected not just in your role playing, but also your tactics and creativity in combat. (I'm sure we've all had players that were excellent at roll playing or at combat, but not necessarily both).

I am developing a network-based conceptual map of magick based on the art and science of magick of the hermetic tradition.

Basically their are three magickal-metaphoric domains; psychic, spiritual and mythic (or void). Each of these domains break down further. Rituals are a combination of magickal practices.

Magick works similarly to the more networked organized D&D feats or to the basic idea of GURPS. For instance, Whirlwind Attack requires the Expertise Feat and the Spring Attack feat (which requires the Mobility feat which requires the Dodge feat). In the context of other abilities, this approaches the network model. Magick works like a network.

Whirlwind Attack Requirements in D&D
1) Expertise
2) Spring Attack
2a) Mobility
2ai) Dodge

However, in many cases the prerequisite spell is required to be cast first. This is one major deviation from the GURPS model. In this way magick is performed like a recipe is made.

For instance to summon a spirit- you perform a spiritual cleansing ceremony (too erect barriers for malicious spirits), you summon a spirit or many spirits for advice or other requests. Then you perform magickal feats of communication and then interact through a cooperator-collaborator personality-relationship mechanic.

Forgive me I am making this rules up on the fly after mulling this over for quite some time.

Summon a Spirit

1) Ritual Cleansing
2) Spirit Offering/Summoning
a) Prerequisite: Spiritual Insight
b) Prerequisite: Knowledge: Spirits X
3) Spiritual Communication
a) Prerequisite: Spiritual Insight
b) Prerequisite: Knowledge: Spirits Y


Of course the cleansing is optional. If you are desperate you can perform this without it. However, you are opening yourself up to hostile spirits in doing so. Also, your target spirit(s) may become offended.

If instead you intentionally summoning a hostile spirit using a form of "demonic magick" or otherwise bind a spirit, you also perform a protection circle and interact within an authoritorian personality-relationship mechanic which can have an effect on your sanity through another mechanic.

In the case of entering the spiritual (astral) realm, you perform a ceremony of cleansing and warding to protect your body and your spirit. You then perform one of many different types of astral magick which require a form of astral perception as a prerequisite; either dream magick, trance magick, etc.

Note: This is all within the spiritual realm. In the descriptions above, psychic and void ability is not required. However, I will be developing rituals that cross the domains.

A limiting factor in this point-based character creation is the use of schools, traditions, temples, etc. Magick can be learned outside of these traditions. However, they offer invaluable training and research. "Spell Networks" are mapped through these traditions. Also, relationships with some spirits will have an impact on your relationship with others. More than one tradition can be studied if their philosophies are compatable with the characters i.e. a Magician or Priest who practices Angelic Magick will find it difficult to intermix this with Demonic Magick (to pick two extremes that can have actually used). However, Angelic Magick can be more readily used with Runic Magick.


I am not aware of another RPG system that uses a network/recipe model of magick. I would be very interested to see one.

[Edited because I needed to show the destinction between the network/recipe model and the GURPS method.]

Bob McNamee wrote: I know a lot of players who would start out the day by casting 5 or 6 easy cantrip spells everyday to add enough Karma to be sure of several castings later. Say, preserve food, repel insects, clean clothes, clean body, spice food... ok...so I made all my 93% rolls... I've got 10 Karma now I can fail at least three times today, and still have another chance at a spell.

Here's a magic system idea that I've had in my head for more than a year now:

The basic idea behind this is that magic users should be capable of powerful effects, but having magic be rare. I prefer a few powerful spells to lots of mediocre ones. In addition, I don't view game balance as an all-important thing.

Now, in my idea, when using magic, energy creation is relatively easy. That is, one doesn't need to be an exceptional mage to conjure really big forces. Also, Affecting things far away is easier than in most systems. However, focusing those forces is hard. In other words, while you might be able to make a telekinetic spell of truly bone-crunching force, you might not be able to focus it tightly enough, and would instead end up flinging all the people and furniture in the room to the opposite wall. A more skillful mage might, however. Similiarly, The Evil Mage (TM), knowing that the PC's are climbing to his tower, might not be able to target a lightning at them from the clouds, but would be able to call up a rain that would make the climb harder and more perilous.

The reason I like this system is because it achieves a few premises of magic that I like:
a) I like a few powerful spells, like stated above
b) Magic feels very powerful, without being all-powerful
c) I think mages casting spells to vex their foes from far away should be easier, and under most magic systems, that isn't very effective. Under these guidelines, it's possible, but still not too effective, thanks to the difficulty of focusing the power on one individual.

What do you people think about this idea?

Sonja's KARMA system has some real fun potential in it. I think it would go very well with a dice pooling mechanic. The player would risk dice when they are casting and gain dice for being successful, lose them for being unsuccessful. The "skill" of the caster would determine the maximum number of dice that they could "wager" in any given spell college or discipline. There could even be different-sided dice introduced to the pool mechanic for added flavor. Magic could be fickle and the dice that you gain for being successful could be random (e.g. roll a six sider and gain: 1-d4,2-d6,3-d8, 4-d10, 5-d12, 6-d20).

Another concept that I have been kicking around for a year or so is a "Magic System Construction Set". It is a meta-system for defining and codifing RPG magic rules. Essentailly, it relies on the concept of magic energy (mana) being in mana pools and the behavior of the mana in the pools and while accessing the pools. Once codified, point values could be assigned, so that you can use whatever magic system or even mutliple magic systems in your game and you would have a balancing mechanism in place. This would work even better with game systems that are themselves point based (GURPS, Hero System).

-Brodie