...I never know what to actually do with it?

I know this is a bit of a 'basic' question for these boards, and it's a bit of an embarrassing one to admit (I usually pride myself on being premise/concept guy), but it is a problem. I really like the product, and can't wait to get my hardback version, but that's about were it ends. In fact, I become Ron's worst nightmare: I buy the product because it's an interesting read.

I'm not sure what it is, part of me thinks it's the rules, but then I have no problem with Over the Edge and The Whispering Vault (which certainly have similarities). Could it be the fact the game gives you the bones and leaves a lot of the setting, concept and premise thing up to you?

It just never comes across as something you actually play to me? Could be the lack of structure, it's quite an open ended product?

Not sure, I could just be strange. Possibly some of these campaign settings to be sold on the web will help?

Hey, Ian.

I've found that it helps to start by defining what "Humanity" and "Demon" really mean. I think this is a major component of all the upcoming supplements (it certainly is with mine!). While in Las Vegas, Ron and I talked about several interpretations of what demons really are and these definitions spawned a whole slew of ideas for Sorcerer game sessions.

So, what do the words "Demon" and "Humanity" mean to you?

- J

Mmmmm, slavering demonic entities from the netherworld - pretty stereotypical I know.

Hey Ian,

You may be a prime candidate for one or more of the mini-supplements. Now that has a good side and a bad side.

The Good: they'll provide setting, back-story, problems, definition, characters, and all sorts of goodies. They're not all alike, so you might want to pick the one(s) that provide what you need most.

The Bad: you've already paid Good Money for Sorcerer, and now I'm telling you to pay more, so you can PLAY it? That would be awful. I'm tempted to give you a copy of Demon Cops free when it's ready.

(Now back off, everyone, this isn't something I'd do for just anyone. Ian has been a Sorcerer booster from WAY back when, and if anyone deserves a break, he does.)

You also might want to adapt some pre-existing material to a sorcerous context. I'd suggest Honor's Veil (L5R), Wildest Dreams (Over the Edge), or perhaps some of the more open-ended Call of Cthulhu scenarios. You have "Soul," so I'd also suggest a real hard look at the three scenarios it includes.

Or here's another notion - break up that idea that the GM has to have all his shit together from the get-go. Have a couple of friends read Sorcerer and see what THEY want to do, then be the GM for that.

Hope some of this helps,
Best,
Ron

(Now back off, everyone, this isn't something I'd do for just anyone. Ian has been a Sorcerer booster from WAY back when, and if anyone deserves a break, he does.)

You have "Soul," so I'd also suggest a real hard look at the three scenarios it includes.

Or here's another notion - break up that idea that the GM has to have all his shit together from the get-go. Have a couple of friends read Sorcerer and see what THEY want to do, then be the GM for that.

On 2001-05-08 17:41, Jared A. Sorensen wrote:
So, what do the words "Demon" and "Humanity" mean to you?

When I first read Sorcerer a couple of years ago I place a link to the site from my site with a comment that Sorcerer has a magic system WotC *wishes* they had.

The beauty of Sorcerer to me (in part) is the fact that it doesn't have a setting to go with it. The reason? Because Ron's role-play game makes magic seem *real* and possible in our present day world. Personally, from day one I have always just assumed that the primary setting for Sorcerer would be *today* in the real world. The contrast of normal and accepted disbelief (or at least, skepticism) to that of being a practitioner of a reality-altering science has always been a small part of the attraction of being a Sorcerer.

I don't know how to eloquently describe it, -it's like Ron's game has magic and depth in it up the wazoo, certainly enough to satisfy any 'gamist' or 'narrativist'. Yet, he never steps so much as a hair's breadth toward fantasy.

It's *real*.

My opinion, but that's how I get it.

Jeff Diamond

Soul of the Sorceror pretty much solves the problem of what to do with the game. It's the first game-related material I've read in fifteen years that made me lust for an opportunity to try it out.

James, Jeff,

Many thanks for the kind comments. I'm hoping (and always have, in a sneaky, not-very-noble way) that Sorcerer and its two supplements act as catalysts, the way that Over the Edge did for me.

Best,
Ron

...I never know what to actually do with it?

I agree with Raven.

What I'd really like to know, though, is how do you spell that funny questioning, "HhhrUnk??" noise Scooby made when he was puzzled? That's my guess, anyway.

Best,
Ron

here i go getting off-topic, but "scooby-doo" is the first tv show/movie/book/comic/whatever that made an impact on me, & i've always had a huge spot in my heart for it...

anyway, i had an idea for a comic book miniseries that would be "scooby-doo" but in the "real" world--4 teenagers driving around america in a van w/ their dog in the 70's--except because it's the 70's, the kids are all doing drugs (especially the skinny slacker kid who thinks the dog is talking to him) & sleeping w/ each other...each issue would focus on a different place in america & tackle a different occult icon (like voodoo/hoodoo in new york, centered around disco)--& the occult stuff would be real, rather than "a guy in a rubber mask"...

you know, come to think of it, this could work as a "sorcerer" narrative...guess it's not as off-topic as i thought...have, as raven said, scooby as shaggy's demon (the "sorcerer" version of "scooby snacks" boggles the mind)...throw in all sorts of sex & drugs & sordid behavior...

well gang, looks like we've got another mystery on our hands...
zoinks!

okay, wait, i've thought some more about this--

3 player characters: fred, velma, & shaggy...

fred's demon is daphne, a passer
shaggy's demon is scooby
velma's demon is an object, her glasses ("i can't see a thing w/out my glasses!"), which would grant her perception & insight powers (hint, anyone?)

man, if i weren't at work right now, i'd write them up w/ "sorcerer" stats...

to quote johnny bravo: "jenkies? what the heck does that mean?"

Excuse me, but I was WATCHING Scooby Doo c. 1970, and it never occurred to me to doubt that Fred was sleeping with both of the women and that Scooby and Shaggy were enjoying their drugs right on screen. (Counter-cultural upbringing, folks; coast of California)

When these notions were presented as semi-humorous "insights" to me, years later, it boggled my mind that anyone could see that show as being anything but.

Best,
Ron

Scoobie-demon-doo!

It's the same with Sid and Mary Krofft. People thinkin' they're all sly with their deep insight. H. R. Pufnstuf? The Doo-bee? Get it, druuuuugs man. Yeah. I get it. And I do believe S&M "got it" too. What did they have to do, release a show called Hashish Henry and the Marijuana Kids? Slide that between Snuff & Blow (a wacky crime-fighting duo) and Pass The Ganja(a kiddie game show) and you've got the perfect 1970's Saturday morning.

OK, I thought it might be good to return to Ian's basic points. Cartoon detour over.

Ian wrote,
"But then may be my visuals on what a Sorcerer is now what's wrong?"

I'm not sure "wrong" is the issue. By definition, whatever kind of story/issue you want to address is OK to do. Also by definition, whatever works for you in defining a sorcerer is also OK. So really, it's just a matter of matching these things up.

You can start at either end. If you want to do the "one beat away from reality" Twin Peaks thing, then use that as a basis for deciding what SORT of sorcerer/demon concept works for that. Or, if you want to do the "sorcerers are [fill-in-here]," then use that as a basis for deciding what setting and situation will work for that.

I think what might be stalling you is recognizing the RANGE you are permitted to work in. Does that seem like a helpful concept?

Best,
Ron

If anything confuses me about Sorcerer I'd estimate its something to do with the following:

(1) It has a premise, but this premise is devoid of setting or any sort of cosmology.

(2) The rules are so light they do not provide/dictate any focus either.

Neither of these criticisms of the game, they are no doubt strengths, but they do leave the playing field wide open in terms of what the game is about. This is why I have no problem with Over the Edge, yes it's an almost 'anything can be chucked in game' but its premise of weird conspiracy on Al Amarja provides a focus.

So let's assume I want to run the 'Twin Peaks' idea. I want to tell stories about weird conspiracies, corruption and human nature within the confines of this small town. It has numerous weird inhabitants, places and everything is delivered in a surreal way.

Why would Sorcerers be there? What would they be? Is it possible this is the only place Sorcerers work? Could they get their powers from the same mythos entity under the town, a demon being a personification of this creature's essence gave form by the Sorcerer?

Just talking aloud, as this would give a focus to the town.

ian--

(1) It has a premise, but this premise is devoid of setting or any sort of cosmology.

(2) The rules are so light they do not provide/dictate any focus either.

Joshua,

As I said, I believe my two points are strengths for the game, but that does not mean it can't leave some people not knowing where to begin. Actually that's not true, I probably do know where to begin, but I have so many choices I never implement any of them. I'm set on this small town idea though, with this being the only place Sorcerers work due to them summoning 'personifications made real' of one mythos type entities essence. As this also provides the reasoning/premise for why the town is weird and a focus of surrealness.

As for the question about D&D, good point. The issue is though D&D does really have a setting and such - countless fantasy novels on the bookshelves. I read D&D, just the PHB, and it makes me thing of David Gemmell books. Does it provide this focus, no, but it provides enough that when people read they 'see' a fantasy interpretation within it.

As we discuss this I would like people to keep in mind, I am a big fan of the game, and nothing is meant is a derogatory remark.

ian--

oh, i wasn't interpreting anything you said as derogatory or otherwise...i understand what you mean--when i read (or think about) sorcerer, i don't have one vision of what the game is--i have at least 2 ideas for modern day sorcerer narratives, w/ very different takes on what "humanity" means & what demons are like, & at least 3 different ideas for sorcerer & sword narratives, w/ radically different moods & themes...that's what i love about the game...
same goes for d&d, actually--i don't read much commercial high fantasy--to be honest, i can't stand the stuff...i like tolkien, i like the worm ouroboros, & that's about it...i haven't read gemmell--& when i read the player's handbook, i don't get visions of only one way to run the game--i have visions of "nutcracker prince"-like weird clockwork soldiers & rapier-wielding hobgoblins, i have visions of steampunky shakespearean romance, i have visions of fritz leiber-esque sword & sorcery, or a narrative that combines l5r w/ arthurian legend--all sorts of stuff...
(of course, 7th sea, on the other hand, has a prepackaged setting that's fairly rich, & i still have 3 or 4 ideas for narratives, each one very different from the other...too many games, not enough time...)
oops, digressed...okay, i guess my point is, don't worry about not knowing where to start--it sounds like you do know: w/ yr "twin peaks"-esque narrative...so, focus on that, & any other ideas you get that don't fit in well w/ it, write down & they'll probably develop into a different narrative (at least, that's how it worked for me)...

If setting is giving you a problem, pick up Sorcerer & Sword. The whole book is about setting. It was interesting enough to me to inspire me to write a setting on the same weekend that I read the book, ignoring my girlfriend at my own peril.

Ian,

I suggest using a few plain sheets of paper. On each one, write a single starting notion for a Sorcerer game. It could be a definition of "sorcery," or a definition of "Humanity," or a neat character notion, or even a description of a place (like your weird town).

Then, on each page, write what might fall out for each one in terms of rules. What sorts of acts constitute Binding? How formal is sorcery? How would demons act (i.e. how would you play them)? What would a Contain look like? Are there any scary, old sorcerers, and what do they act like? Include lots of literary or movie references that go with each page too.

The point of this exercise is to overcome being overwhelmed by alternatives. It seems to me that you have some good notions, but then your awareness that there are OTHER notions trips you up. This way, you can jot down those alternative notions and, once any one of these pages really slams you with the need to develop it further, you can file those other pages for the future.

Best,
Ron

The point of this exercise is to overcome being overwhelmed by alternatives...you have some good notions, but then your awareness that there are OTHER notions trips you up.

The multiple sheets for developing notions as a way of focusing is an awesome suggestion! I wish more RPG's covered this kind of stuff...demonstrating recognition of things that slow a prospective GM down and providing techniques for overcoming them. Sometimes you just can't figure out what to do with all the color text and background material.