Hello,

After today's strip I feel like doing some trollbabe musing...

I don't think I will ever adjust to the tone of the comics. It's like the strips keep landing in the emotional equivalent of my peripheral vision. I get them but only because I'm capable of thinking about it, not because they actually punch me in an emotional way. It's almost like I want say, "Ron, please, please stop being so CORNY!"

But there are exceptions:

1) The ending of Avatar Is Plenty is the first time I actually laughed out loud while reading a Trollbabe strip. It was extremely funny.

2) Birthroot Bargain is THE BEST Trollbabe strip so far, hands down. That story packed punch.

Which of course brings me to todays strip....

Tha is reading books on birthroot... which means I'm smiling gleefully... Does this harald the return of Creepy-Baby-Root-Thing?!!!?

I hope so.

Today's strip also perfectly captures my feelings about the strips in general.

Frame 1: The tone is set. A pile of musty arcane books being studied by candle light. The title of one of the books: Birthroot 101. My eyes widen with excitement! All this drawn in one of my favorite art styles: high contrast black and white.

Frame 2: Now we see the title of the book and... it's a kind of half-parody of an existing book and on the back I see more half-parodies. This would be okay and appreciated, if the parody titles actually made sense as puns or something but instead they seem kind of random. So already I'm kind of squinting with one eye.

Frame 3: Bam! We're treated to a corny bespeckled ghost complete with bubble letter BOO! And now, I'm in full on face-plant mode. *thump*

Jesse

Side Question: Is the implication in Holy Trollers that the murdering troll might be Aiga from A Day At The Circus deliberate or am I reading too much into it?

Hi Jesse,

It might interest you to know that the book titles and stuff in the story were inserted by the artist and weren't part of the instructions from the script. Just one of those unexpected outcomes that collaboration yields, with whatever effect it happens to have. This might interfere with your desired vision of the Master Creator Who Knows All, but comics aren't a great medium for such people.

And what's with the humor phobia? You don't like funny? Shall I tell you about the Troll Stomp dance that Jake invented during the session he played?

One thing I've learned about the Trollbabe comics is that the story is very organic and very slow, arguably to the point that it's artistically sometimes fully stalled. During the trip, little bits here and there are funny or goofy. The characters occasionally use modern slang, or details might satirize modern life.

(My limits, on that, by the way, are well set - the strip will never become self-referential, for instance; the characters will not address their creators nor "know" they're in a comic. But I should also point out that the artists' limits, or lack thereof, are involved too.)

And who should know this whole point better than you, already? I mean, all that "Nuh-uh, I don't like it, not enough story," and then this!

Side Question: Is the implication in Holy Trollers that the murdering troll might be Aiga from A Day At The Circus deliberate or am I reading too much into it?

Hello Again,

I had my suspicions about the book titles possibliy being an artist's addition. Thanks for confirming them.

Oh, yeah, I don't like the modern slang either.

I'm not humor phobic but I am generally very very very very very particular about what I find funny and when I find humor appropriate. This is a source of conflict between me and my players ALL THE TIME. Often my players will do something that sounds akin to the "Troll Stomp Dance" you mentioned and I will sit at the end of the table drumming my fingers and giving them my best, "We Are Not Amused" look. I'm trying to do better.

What it comes down to is that I do not like blunt slapsticky, over the top humor. A lot of the sketches on Saturday Night Live now a days annoy me. Adam Sandler is my mortal enemy. Things like a cross dressing man doing an over the top loud obnoxious impersonation of a talk show host just doesn't make me laugh. I am probably the sole gamer in the world who thinks Monty Python and The Holy Grail is NOT FUNNY (well, it has moments, but the ending is particularly NOT FUNNY).

But I am not without humor. I like scathing wit as demonstrated by Blackadder and other British Sitcoms as well as Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel. I like intelligent social satire such as The Onion. And I like twisted dark humor. I love the comic Lenore, Chapter 1 of Kill Bill is extremely funny, and most people these days who comment on my sense of humor get handed my printed copy of "My Life With Master" on which I've penciled in the words, "A Romantic Comedy" under the title.

Sputter ... why, whatever do you mean!?

Ah, I get it.

#1, you're the perfect Trollbabe reader. I wondered whether the severed head would be clue enough, and it was. Excellent. Just you wait for the next big whacko thing.

#2, nothing's wrong with your sense of humor that a gopher in your pants won't cure. Now that I know this, I'm all set for the next time we hang out together in person.

#3, what's with this "Next up" business? Are you somehow looking for the Trollbabe story to take off in some directed fashion, just because you luckily grabbed a clue? Not happening - I like the current pace, and as soon as you get a Big Story Bit sussed out, you can bet on at least a whole story to follow that doesn't have anything to do with anything except demonstrating and enjoying some aspect of the gals' personalities.

Yeah, you're cute when you're all frustrated and panting for more. In the comics biz, that's part of the goal.

Best,
Ron

Jesse--

I say this with nothing but love, but...

...yeah, you definitely need a gopher in the pants.

Dude, it's a comic strip. Which is not to say, "Stop analyzing it! It's just a comic, not serious literature." I guess I tend to approach "serious literature" as if it were a comic book. To me, Borges is a writer of pulp mysteries. James Joyce is a comical writer with a weird (that is, very Irish) sense of humor, & Ulysses is just a good story.

In other words: Relax. (And Blackadder isn't over the top? I showed it to a girlfriend once & she disgustedly said, "How is this any different from Married With Children?" I mean..."Head" is pretty base, what with Edmund running around with a head hidden behind his back. Boy, do I love that show.)

I'll admit, though, the modern speaking kind of threw me at first, too. Then I remembered that Ron's a big underground fantasy/Heavy Metal guy & I'm not so much. I'm used to the modern speak now.

And I agree: "Birthroot Bargain" is skinchillingly good. I love that strip.

Hello Again,

Well, the whole, "We're going to hint at something and then not speak of it again for six months" method of storytelling is why I finally stopped reading Gaming Guardians and that was a DAILY strip. Also that it would waffle between on going superhero storyline and one off gaming satire strips bothered me. You're either the X-Men or you're Dilbert... make up your mind.

I don't think it has anything to do with "serious litterature" but just what I consider fundamental good storytelling qualities. A story can be silly or serious, light or heavy but either way it should be... tight, is perhaps the word I'm looking for.

It's like an amusement park ride. As I read Trollbabe I keep waiting for the "hair pin turns" and "sudden drops" and all that's happening is that the ride is just kind of going over some mild swells.

Maybe I'm just looking for the rollercoaster when it's really just the bumper cars.

Jesse

Hey Jesse,

Ever shove a comic or movie or song at someone and insist they read it or watch it or listen to it, then stand there fidgeting while they do it? And then want feedback? And somehow ... it's always disappointing. The person shrugs, or says they like it but clearly doesn't flash on what was obviously the cool part, or finds something neat about it which is totally trivial and off-the-point ...

Such behavior is actually not sharing the item with the person. It's a plea for attention and recognition about oneself from the person. You don't want them to like it, you want them to like it your way, and for them to know it's your way.

The reason I bring this up is that people who do this often give up on the unsatisfying other humans and transfer the behavior to the work itself. They not only want to be surprised and impressed, but they want it right now and they want it their way. Absolutely anything else is an outright failure of the presentation. And nothing in that presentation could possibly be eligible for enjoyment, in retrospect - if it wasn't "right then," then it never will be or can be.

For instance, how do you know there wasn't a big roller-coaster drop two strips ago that you, personally, missed? Or that will turn out to be a one-two punch, when "two" hits a few weeks from now?

More specifically, why is the whole Aiga insight not eligible for exactly the sort of long-term story you've been asking about? Is it not possible that at least three other such things are available in the strips so far? And similarly, you pointed out yourself that I'm not letting the Birthroot plot element drop. But you were incredibly quick to say, "Birthroot? Cool!" (pause) "Oh, but it's not exactly and immediately what I want about the birthroot! It sucks!"

You seem very willing and quick to state that a given strip didn't "do it" for you, but whether "it" is even possible for you is beginning to look unlikely.

So, let's address that issue concretely. We'll stick with comics. Name a comic strip or title that really nailed it for you, in the last year. See, I'm not going to let you use something from earlier, because people often fondly remember what they evaluated using more flexible standards, but forgetting those standards.

Got one? Then tell me why and how. Didn't? Um-hmm.

Best,
Ron

Hello,

Whoa, that's interesting. You also just described a good friend of mine to the letter. Also, I never said this wasn't all about personal bias. He has a tendency to give you things and if you don't automatically think it's the best thing ever then obviously you "don't get it." But that's the problem here, I DON'T get it and I want to. I may be wanting more turns and drops but maybe the real problem is I'm not even on the track.

Name a comic strip or title that really nailed it for you, in the last year.

Back to Trollbabe for a moment. Since we're putting the personal biases right on the table I will point out another factor. Trollbabe the GAME evokes a certain feeling for me. The cover art has a presense of majesty. The mechanic of ever escalating stakes, all the rules about tight relationships and the perils that associating with Trollbabes brings, make me think of epic poems and ballads. My favorite piece of art in the book is the Trollbabe kneeling over the fallen comrade on the battlefield. It gets me every time.

So when you said that you were doing a Trollbabe comic strip I made a mistake. I leapt to the conclusion that it would be something like Beowulf in art. So when in the very first strip the first line of dialogue spoken by a Trollbabe is the word "Wild!" in a very modern slangy kind of way I was sort of tossed against a brick wall built by my own expectations and crumbled like a rag doll. I don't think I've ever really recoved.

Hi there,

OK, good - Jesse, I was kind of worried you were turning into your friend. Fortunately, not.

That's a good point from you and Ralph about the difference between the comic and the game. I've said before that I simply don't regard the two things as the same, and certainly not that one is a version of the other.

My own play of Trollbabe tends to be more serious than the strip. The humor is subtler and slower, and the plots/drama are faster and more up-front - the reverse of the strip. In other words, I don't think you and Ralph are mis-reading the game; it is definitely potentially heavy, and even when it's light, the characters have dignity and the world is lit up in a half-evening legendary way.

Whereas the strip is very nearly improvisational on my part - a story concept usually takes about six seconds to make it from premise to structure, maximum. It's also usually based around a single thing - a gag, a plot point relative to another story, a key factor in the character's personality, or sometimes just a cool image.

Perhaps it's asking too much for people to disconnect the two in their minds, or at least to take the comic strip on its own terms, for what it does offer.

I should also point out that, although I'll stand arrogantly with any game designer in the biz (and would have done so even before Sorcerer was over ten pages long out of sheer hubris), I consider myself a rather humble scribbler in terms of comics. Any pleasure a person gets from the strip (Jesse: The Birthroot Bargain and the end of Avatar is Plenty) is a bonus, to me.

Best,
Ron

Perhaps it's asking too much for people to disconnect the two in their minds, or at least to take the comic strip on its own terms, for what it does offer.

Line me up next to Jesse & Ralph regarding the take on the Trollbabe game & the initial take on the comic strip. And my reaction to "The Birthroot Bargain" was exactly like Jesse's. But after that...I got over it. I guess I was able to disconnect the game & the strip.

I don't think it's asking too much of those who are already familiar with your work. But I can't help but wonder if you aren't doing Trollbabe the game a diservice. As Ralph pointed out many gamers are used to turning to game fiction to see what kind of "story" the game is supposed to produce.

If anyone could write something that would actually reflect what the mechanics support it would be you. And if any game could actually facilitate production of stories like the samples given it would be Trollbabe.

So, I can imagine someone going to the comic to see what the game is all about and getting the wrong impression.

Jesse

Hmmm, a valid concern indeed.

Perhaps some text to clarify this can be added to the website.

In the meantime, any further chat about the stories so far is always welcome ... perhaps along the lines of something that someone, anyone, happens to like?

Best,
Ron

I've liked them all: with my standard caveat of comics not being my favorite medium and that my preferences would have been for more panels per strip (both of which you already know).

I like the inconclusive indeterminate endings, like who the possessed one really was in the first strip. I'm also a fan of a good twist, so even though the funky 70s swinger vibe of the Avatar didn't really do it for me, the chick's "Ok, I'm in...whats it to you" response was priceless.

Birthroot was actually not my favorite, probably because it, more than any of the others ran afoul of my second preference above. I literally had to read the thing 3-4 times to even figure out what the basic plot was...which quite possibly is just my own issue. I REALLY like the idea behind it and the questions about how far one will go to have a child have definite Sorcerer-esque vibes (Tha is definitely a potential Sorcerer character). But IMO the strip would have been helped enormously by additional panels providing more transition details.

Of all of the online comics I've browsed over the years, this is the only one I actually care to follow to the end. I even find myself checking it out from time to time even without the whole story...which should tell you something right there :-)

I guess because I was involved in the artwork for the game and for the strips I never had an issue with the apparant difference in tone between the two. Ron has always said the two were quite different monsters.

I look at it this way. No two gaming groups are going to play Trollbabe the same way. Were you to sit in on a dozen different groups you'd probably get a full gamut of styles ranging from totally dramatic and majestic to slapsticky fun. So when Ron writes some comic strips it's really no different. Just a preference of style for that medium.

And as far as the modern slang goes, it probably doesn't hurt that I have a great affection for many of the things Ron does, regarding fantasy art. A similar taste.

I can see where some people might be off put by the style of the comic. Things happen quickly when they do, but the whole affair takes quite some time to unfold. I suspect there's a lot of cool plot points that are going to converge in surprising ways.

"Birthroot Bargain" rocked. The art is rough in a heller cool way. Great faces. The current strip looks pretty nifty too. I like the border around each panel. Nice atmosphere.

(edited a typo)

Thanks, James! I'm a big admirer of your art so I'm glad you liked mine.

Hi there,

Speaking of the art itself, here are some reflections on the first year of strips.

1. "Sex and Death, with Music" - James and I like all the same stuff. All I have to do is say "Vaughn Bode!" and he says "Phil Foglio!" and I say "Wendy Pini!" and he says "Frank Thorne!" Other people think it's some kind of weird code, but we really did have a full conversation by doing that, with verbs and everything.

So this strip was less of a collaboration than a full-throttle dual-brain event: anything I wrote is "what James wanted anyway" and anything James draws is "what Ron wanted anyway."

2. "The Green Goo Feud" - Rod and I are similar, in that we feel very easy with the characters themselves and the spirit of Retta's adventures. He suggested a kind of Li'l Abner look that was just right for all the action, and is the artist who most captures the newspaper-y feel I was looking for. He's also the one who can make story suggestions that really change things for the better. He's more of a collaborator than a straight-up illustrator, and probably the artist I'd trust most with a concept approach - in which I'd put one event down for a three-panel strip and he'd send roughs, and then I'd do the dialogue. I've never done that with Trollbabe (the artist gets a full script), but I'd try it with Rod.

3. "The Birthroot Bargain" - Ed was one of the two artists who was attracted by a post by James at a minicomics website, and he already had a whole folder of illustrations of what we both swear must have been telepathy - a bunch of trollbabes! What they were doing wasn't quite suitable for the strip but was certainly entertaining (and Ed, I suggest charging to let people see'em), but I'd clearly met a kindred spirit. I really, really liked his rendering in the strip and the audience's first view of Tha is a real stunner. He really struggled over the bizarre spirit-world panels but in my opinion nailed them without any problem.

4. "A Day at the Circus" - Adam was the other artist who'd responded to James' post - actually, there were several others, but Adam and Ed were the only ones I wanted to work with. Anyway, Adam writes comics very intently and had a harder time adjusting to "the artist" role. For the most part, his ideas worked well with mine, but the action at Aiga's cage before it's opened never quite satisfied either of us. Stylistically, though, he brought a lot to the comic. I liked the very different look for this story; the shading has a lot of power if you see all the strips at once on a screen or printed on a page.

5. "Holy Trollers" - James again, again with little or no need for explanations or dialogue between the two of us. His details like the rogue troll's quivering hand as he dies, as well as Tha's posture and expression in the "dammit" panel, are more examples of him simply drawing what I want with no identifiable communication between us to establish it.

6. "Avatar is Plenty" - What I liked about this one was Rod's mastery of the G.B. Trudeau-esque facial expressions (and a little bit of Crumb when Rus really gets raving). Rod also identified a serious weakness in the first script I sent him and made a number of suggestions which led to my re-write. The single thing people like most - Gwyneth's reactions - came from that dialogue; it wasn't in the original.

Anyway, just the first round of musings on my first attempt at comics. Hope it was interesting.

Best,
Ron

Excellent. I find it intriguing to peer into the worlds of other creators and see how they cook things up. If you ever do an actual Trollbabe Comics trade paperback or something you have to include an introduction discussing the process of creating the comic, just like you did above. Very cool.

And yeah, you know exactly what I go for in art -- either creating it or enjoying it. I'm always happy to work on these strips!

BTW, check out this page for a couple of Ben Strickland's Trollbabe-esque paintings...

That Strickland stuff is gorgeous, James! Thanks!

To anyone who liked Birthroot art:

I lost my job last Thursday, and so have a little more time on my hands (not much -- I'm job hunting hard, but there's a certain amount of "hurry up and wait" to that) -- and my wife has encouraged me to see if there's anything I can do to make some buckolas with my art, even tiny amounts.

So I'm thinking -- Birthroot Bargain Cafe Press T-shirts! I know that Cafe Press is in some ways a ripoff cuz you make only tiny amounts per shirt sold and the shirts are priced pretty high, but hey, it'd be cool if anybody bought anything whatsoever.

I'm thinking that I should dig out my originals of the BRB (some of them alas are a bit damaged by diet coke spillage -- hazard of the addiction -- but I think that can be assuaged with clever photoshopping), scan them at a nice high resolution, and open up a Cafe Press shop.

I'm seeking feedback on (a) whether anybody might be interested, but more importantly, (b) which individual panels or strips might look good on a T-shirt or mug.

E.g. the central panel, first strip is pretty damn high impact.

http://www.adept-press.com/trollbabe/brb.html

Thoughts?

Hi Ed,

Perhaps you could sell a nice poster-style print of the story, as a wall-hanger item?

But a t-shirt with that "Tha studies human magic" panel is a knockout idea. I'd buy one in a shot. I wish there were a way to get more of the money to you, though.

Best,
Ron

I don't know much about it but I don't think Cafe Press's prices are unfair, considering that there's zero investment involved. If I knew I could sell a hundred of these I'm sure I could place an order at a "real" T-shirt shop and clean up. But that's high risk; Cafe Press is zero risk.

Single comic panels with out-of-context text like that impart a really cool Pop Art vibe, which clashes interestingly with the creepy fantasy theme, IMHO. :)

That wasn't so hard:

http://www.cafeshops.com/edworks

It could use a little work -- i.e. putting some identifying information on the image, the comic url, my name even -- but it's not bad for less than half an hour's work. I'll update it with more goodies later.

I didn't realize this but you can set your own price on cafepress; I set it so that I'd get $5 per shirt. Cool.

Dude, that's awesome! You just inspired me to set up one of those rip-off shops...

Fourth strip, second panel. My fave.