Great answer, Ron; thanks for taking the time. I hope this is also capturing the interest of others because we have few examples of really fundamental HQs: things that address what the players want the new world to be like. I need to ruminate over your answers before coming back with questions. Great ideas and great campaign!

I've found the issue of justice becoming increasingly important for me in Glorantha. I play one of the Humakti in Guy Jobbins' Swords campaign (see link below for not-quite-up-to-date chronicles), and the Humakti have a different sense of justice than their ex-kin. Easier for modern people to understand and play I think.

I have been puzzling over how Humakt would react to Thed's claim. It is hard to classify rape as the kind of perversion-of-death crime that Humakt takes really personally. On the other hand, as a holder of the truth rune he has opportunities to get involved in conflicts about honor and deception. Rape, especially spousal rape, clearly involves deception, dishonesty, and lack of integrity. It could be described as a falsification of the act of love.

We have found Humakt to be responsive of claims to truth and justice in unexpected ways - most recently to our detriment. We have ended up depriving a group of allied healers from their only source of water because of promises we made earlier, and also because we found ourselves unable to tolerate slavery (river god was enslaved). Interestingly, the idea that the healers will die is not so much of a problem for us ("Welcome to Humakt's bosom!") as the feeling that we haven't fulfilled our obligations to them.

Our Humakti have some very direct ideas about what the world should be like: "The old world is dying. We will cleanse its child of falsehood." Your ideas have been very illuminating and I look forward to putting them in practice in our game.

http://www.smartgroups.com/vault/swords

Hi there,

If you're interested in getting a bit deeper into Gloranthan myth, and if you're playing Humakti, then the guy to check out is Rashoran. The following is paraphrased from Cults of Terror (1981).

During the Lesser Darkness, Rashoran wandered the world counselling various entities not to fear in the face of darkness and chaos. A few of those he spoke with simply gave up and were eaten or destroyed, but a few seemed strengthened. The examples given are Humakt and Uleria.

People may disagree with me about this, but the counsel of Rashoran seems to me to be very Zen-like and transcendent, aimed at removing moral absolutism based on labels but yet preserving it based on ideals, especially highly localized by the place and time.

I don't know much about Uleria (high goddess of love, represented by a major planet or star in the Gloranthan sky), but as far as I can tell, both she and Humakt seem to have become something of meta-gods, represented through dozens of cultures and splintered/adapted into hundreds of aspects without losing their fundamentals. Love and Death are what they are.

Rashoran not only spoke with the Unholy Trio, he was killed by them. So whatever "identity in the face of chaos" he bestowed was gained by them as well. Hence disease, madness, and rape exist without recourse to heroquesting or magicking them away in any easy way.

Sedenya apparently also heroquested Rashoran-myths extensively, and thus one of the faces of Natha is Rashorana. In other words, the Lunar Way seems to have partaken extensively of Rashoran's teachings as well, which doesn't surprise me a bit.

It seems very likely to me that some Humakti can think "out of the box" in ways that followers of more locked-in pantheons tend not to do, especially in terms of cultural blind spots. They've severed themselves from "how it's done" in order to be Humakti in the first place. So justice as an applicable yet not label-bound concept would be kind of a quest or shining ideal for some of them. As opposed to the ones who merely wear black and kill people a lot ... the line between "deliverer of intuitive justice" and "serial killer" being kind of thin, potentially.

What strikes me most (and struck me way back when, in my first reading of Cults of Prax in the late 70s) about Humakt is that he's not an Orlanthi god. He's integrated into the Orlanthi culture and pantheon (as an alternative path), much like he's integrated into dozens of others. Ernalda is similar, especially given a close reading of Glorantha: an introduction to the Hero Wars (2000).

So in my game, Humakt was not a member of Orlanth's Hall. He has his own God-place, which currently is pretty well explained in the book Storm Tribes. Therefore he and his were not present for that particular scene.

They sure as hell showed up in my game, though! One of the daughters of Kistralde was a Humakti, and that meant that heroforming her conferred power that Orlanth could not overwhelm. I also enjoyed a small troop of Humakti that I tied into the assassination of Temertain (stop me if I'm babbling too much Gloranthan canon at once), especially their senior warrior who was blind and relied on using the Truth affinity in order to perceive his surroundings. Interesting, eh? I've been wondering about recasting that concept for a player-character one day.

Best,
Ron

... the counsel of Rashoran seems to me to be very Zen-like and transcendent, aimed at removing moral absolutism based on labels but yet preserving it based on ideals, especially highly localized by the place and time.

"identity in the face of chaos"

As opposed to the ones who merely wear black and kill people a lot ... the line between "deliverer of intuitive justice" and "serial killer" being kind of thin, potentially.

Ernalda is similar, especially given a close reading of Glorantha: an introduction to the Hero Wars (2000).

Hi there,

I decided to split the above posts out from the rape in Glorantha thread, in hopes that a big ol' Humakti discussion ensues.

Best,
Ron

Humakt (or as the ducks call him, Hueymakt) has been my favorite Gloranthan deity. He is marvelously complex, encompassing all that is noble and tragic, liberating and absolute about Death. Nowhere was the dichotomy hammered home more thoroughly than in my Hero Wars playtest campaign, where we had two Humakti. Here are their narratives, updated for Thunder Rebels, Storm Tribe and HeroQuest:


• Swordthane and Efrodar godi Heordan Keen-eye's strong arm is ready to aid all who oppose the Lunar oppressors. Living among the Sartar Exiles, he learned shieldwall and cavalry tactics, and the customs and languages of Prax and Heortland. Able to train and lead troops and gather military intelligence, Heordan is renowned as a war leader. His wisdom, persuasiveness and impartiality have allowed him to negotiate many alliances. At home, Heordan leads the worship of Humakt and dispenses justice to his people. He only has two regrets: the loss of Soulcleaver, and his love for Brenna. His geas requires that he abstain from strong drink.

• Kelulf the Strong, a fanatical Makla Mann swordthane of fearsome demeanor, is disliked by his clanfolk for his belligerence and reputation as a killer. Tireless in his efforts to crush the Lunars and their allies, he questions the honor and courage of all those unwilling to rise against them. Possessing great battle luck, Kelulf prides himself on leading and training the clan's young warriors. His quick thinking and ruthlessness have saved his life on several occasions. Kelulf is a member of the Cold Wind movement and answers directly to Sarostip Cold-eye, its leader. Given the opportunity, Kelulf must always deliver a death blow to any fallen opponent.


As can be seen, both are leaders and competent warriors, but they could not be more different in essential nature. Heordan definitely falls into the Death for Life camp, while I can see Kelulf eagerly attempting the Lead Cross heroquest (in which the Humakti quester must slaughter followers of Chalana Arroy) to prove his devotion to Death over Life.

Posting bits of a discussion elsewhere which fit here. Sorry about the mess. This is Jane Williams replying to me.

>... why Vinga didn’t speak up for Thed (and this is indeed mystifying)

Probably because at the time the myth was written, Vinga hadn't been
invented :( She was out shopping, right?

> when she went to Orlanth to claim justice for Ragnaglar's abuse, but I’m sure Humakt would have spoken up too. Well, *our* Humakt would have! ;)

Whose? Yours, Dori's, Aelfs...? I think one thing we're finding is
that they're different. But all aspects of a greater whole.


> But I found myself wondering last night about Orlanthi justice (how
> come rape as crime wasn’t dealt with differently) and how Humakt
> would treat it as a crime/sin.

I was wondering about that. Would he? And if so, why? What is
Humakt's idea of justice based on? We know that it isn't kinship: but
what is it?

> Is it wrong because it is betrayal (a version of untruth), or what?

But it isn't betrayal, is it? Unless the victim is in some way
dependent on the attacker in the first place. It's just forcing your
will on someone else in a violent way. Which Humakt is all in favour
of :( Perhaps we need to look at the difference between Humakt and
(say) Vadrus?

> I don’t think Humakt would recognize what we think of as “inalienable rights”,

Probably not.

> but I also don’t believe he would allow or endorse or even tolerate violation either.

Nor me, but I'm still not sure why. Are we just projecting our
C20/C21 values on to Humakt?

I say that the Rashorana connection is 1st age hogwash! :)

No, really. I think that it has no relevance to your basic Sartarite Humakti. I think that this is Tarumathi influence.

Hello,

Discussions among Glorantha-philes tend to delight in quick references to arcana. Let's try not to do that in this forum, so much, because the goal is to help other people understand and enjoy HeroQuest and Glorantha.

So, newsalor, please clarify your point about the Tarumathi in a way that someone relatively new to the material can understand.

My thoughts on your post, perhaps hampered by the post's sketchiness, is that saying "no relevance" is overly general. In our group, and others I know, we consider Dragon Pass, by the 1620s, as a melting pot rather than a fixed set of single values. Heortling followers of the Lunar Way in Boldhome; deserters from the Lunar army setting up as warband leaders for rebels in Heortland. That sort of thing.

Furthermore, instead of "hard-line Sartarite rebels" being the default protagonists (as was typically the case back in the RQ heyday), a lot of HeroQuest play seems to be about people who are working out personal compromises among things like Chaos, love, death, family, and clan membership.

So sure, by the Humakti dogma according to the local priest out by Apple Lane, the Rashoran connection is either utterly obscure or total hoo-ha - obviously Lunar propaganda, etc.

But a character who's seen his assumptions challenged again and again, and who (accurately, to my way of thinking) doesn't really believe that any of the dogmas out there are really getting anywhere good, might discover it. Information about Lunar stuff is readily available in Dragon Pass. He might then latch onto it as a useful and personally meaningful new idea, staying strictly within Humakti myth, no need to become a Lunar or anything like that. And if it works, in practice? Hero band, over here! Sign on up.

Best,
Ron

Whoops, forgot to mention this too.

Michael, I don't suppose that your game included a final, deadly confrontation between these two player-characters? "The tragic duel" kind of situation? That's where my little heart goes pit-a-pat, when I see characters like these ...

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: Discussions among Glorantha-philes tend to delight in quick references to arcana. Let's try not to do that in this forum, so much, because the goal is to help other people understand and enjoy HeroQuest and Glorantha.

So, newsalor, please clarify your point about the Tarumathi in a way that someone relatively new to the material can understand.

newsalor wrote: I say that the Rashorana connection is 1st age hogwash! :)

No, really. I think that it has no relevance to your basic Sartarite Humakti. I think that this is Tarumathi influence.

quot;Jane
I'm not that new to Glorantha in general, and the reference to the Tarumathi meant nothing to me :( Want to explain?

Hi there,

Kao Nashi wrote,

We have found Humakt to be responsive of claims to truth and justice in unexpected ways - most recently to our detriment. ...

Our Humakti have some very direct ideas about what the world should be like: "The old world is dying. We will cleanse its child of falsehood."

Ron Edwards wrote:
Kao Nashi and Jane, do you want to pursue the Rashoran line of discussion? Or do you want to focus on something else?

hi folks - ron, sorry to crash in. this is guy, i narrate the game that kao and jane are talking about.

we've not discussed this much in game, and i think this is a fruitful area for development. i have some ideas which i'm leery about disclosing right now, for obvious reasons. let me just say this:

the pcs are followers of the Herocult of Hereward (an invention of our own), a First Age companion of Arkat. simply, what we know about Hereward is this:

1. he was a loyal follower of arkat, until arkat started illuminating everyone and turned into a troll
2. herewardi have poor opinions of the followers of maklamann (who remained loyal to arkat until the end)
3. herewardi traditionally have low opinions of illumination (and trolls)
4. following his refusal to follow arkat down the path of illumination, hereward went - well, mad, it appears, for quite a while. i think the text has it that he staggered around weeping blood and raging against the betrayal of his god for a couple of years, or something.

finally there are 3 key points we mustn't forget (said because i nearly did):

5. hereward was one of the three warriors who introduced arkat to the cult of humakt
6. hereward retains his air connection
7. hereward is obsessed with Truth (rather than justice, which is where this discussion started), which appears to stem from the experiences noted in point 4.

with this context i think that rashoran is germaine to the discussion, as is the events and propaganda of the 1st age, and the argument that arkat forged humakt from humath.

hope this isn't too gnomic

guy

Hi there,

Wow!

I'm thinking that at the philosophical level, two "truth" concepts might be a big deal for those who emulate Hereward. Especially since the core concept for Humakti involves applying Death. Which of the two is Real truth? Who knows?

1. Truth as absolute knowledge, gained by loyalty and effort. I think this is the kind of truth that Lhankor Mhy pursues, in the form of the Mistress of the Light of Knowledge, who was killed by Tien (later to become Thanatar) during the Greater Darkness. With all possible provisos that I'm speaking only of my own game, Irippi Ontor worship would be an extreme form of this same endeavor.

2. Truth as flash of insight, particularly in terms of momentary application: what actually to do now. This is more in line, to my way of thinking, with Rashoran(a), especially in the case of irreconcilable differences and in the absence (or rejection of) guidelines.

The hell of it is, both honor and justice rely on "truth." Anyone can say they prize their honor or justice. But which truth are they employing? How is it derived? When do you know you have it? Is it truth about "what happened" or about what that "means"?

As I read the source material you guys have linked to, the more Newsalor's brief comment makes sense: there's some serious bad blood between Hereward and the legacy of Rashoran. (By the way, there's no mention of Tarumath in Cults of Terror; must be a King of Dragon Pass thing.) Now, what does that bad blood entail?

... because the second sort of truth does seem a little more Hereward-like, you know? Did Hereward, in rejecting Arkat, actually reject what Nysalor offered, or come closer to it? Such questions always arise when dealing with Nysalor/Gbaji ...

Thanks so much for bringing this great game to the attention of the forum!

Best,
Ron

Just to muddy the waters, it is worth mentioning not only that there are different perspectives on Humakt within Dragon Pass (eg, the honourable king's bodyguard who puts the greatest emphasis upon law and honour vs. the Lismelder zombie-slayer, who regards reasserting the natural order of death upon the undead as the finest expression of Humakt's will), but there are also other takes on Humakt.

Hum'Akt is the Carmanian death god, and in his worship, the emphasis is put much more firmly on death and judgement rather than law and honour as such.

All this should help emphasise what is, after all, a central issue of this thread -- that in Glorantha, as in the real world, the most important and interesting differences are usually within 'us' rather than between 'us' and 'them'...

All the best

Mark

Ron Edwards wrote: I don't suppose that your game included a final, deadly confrontation between these two player-characters?

Wowsers again! Michael, that is one of the most satisfying posts I've read in a long time.

It's interesting that Kelulf went for the "submission" option, especially after demanding that the duel be to the death. I can think of some players, not all by any means, who'd be pretty enthusiastic about playing the guy's death-scene in these circumstances. But this makes sense as well, in the chivalric context that "winning means you must be right, so I guess I'll agree." Is that more-or-less the logic that was employed, in your judgment of the game?

Hi Mark! Good to have you here.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards:

So, newsalor, please clarify your point about the Tarumathi in a way that someone relatively new to the material can understand.

My thoughts on your post, perhaps hampered by the post's sketchiness, is that saying "no relevance" is overly general.

Ok. Sorry if I confused you. I was not trying to impress you lot with my knowledge. I was just saying that nothing like that would be ever consider in our clan. Everyone who questions that may very well be a trice cursed Riddler! I see that the smiley did not help at all. I'll try to be more specific.

Pelanda is a country between Dara Happa and Karmania. They have been under the rule of Dara Happans for a long time (on and off) .

Rashoran/Rashorana is originally from Pelandan mythology. His/her origins are pretty far from your good old Heortling roots. Humakt does not appear in Pelandan myths as far as I know.

Tarumathi were/are a people that live near Dorastor and they were big time supporters of Nysalor and his Bright Empire. There we have a connection between Pelandan philosophers and Tarumathi Orlanthi.

Tarumath was/is a deity of High Storm. It was Lokamayadons own off-shoot of the more conventional Orlanthi ways - nowadays considered heretical as is everything else that has something to do with Gbaji (In this case, Nysalor) . I really believe that the connection between Humakt and Rashoran/a is due to Pelorian / Pelandan influence during the First Age. Those people did not worship Humakt. They may have heroquested to prove it, so the connection could exist still, but I think that it has very little relevance to your basic Heortlings.

I'm sorry if you don't like "hard-line Sartarite rebels". I won't force my players make new characters. I like my new clan based campaign. We do explore personal morals, but I think that it can be done better if the general moral values are presented first. It's not really a compromise if you don't believe in anything.

However, I'm not saying that your game should not include a heroband full of illuminated Humakti. YGMV. Have fun.

nuanarpoq wrote: hi folks - ron, sorry to crash in. this is guy, i narrate the game that kao and jane are talking about.

we've not discussed this much in game, and i think this is a fruitful area for development. i have some ideas which i'm leery about disclosing right now, for obvious reasons.

nuanarpoq wrote:
4. following his refusal to follow arkat down the path of illumination, hereward went - well, mad, it appears, for quite a while. i think the text has it that he staggered around weeping blood and raging against the betrayal of his god for a couple of years, or something.

But when Arkat told them to exchange their teeth for tusks, and lie dead in a birthing cave for a year, he knew the time had come to question his loyalty. He called on Humakt his Lord and Orlanth, the god of his tribe. They sent the sharp wind from the North; Occam's Wind; the wind that cuts most fine; also called the TruthWind. For one day and one night Hereward drove this wind against the words that Arkat spoke to him. At the end of that time he stood and walked from Arkat's commands and into the wilderness, where he wandered blindly for ten years. It is Herewards greatest shame that he could not see through Arkat's lies from the start. He swore a great oath never to be so deceived again

Hereward had learned Arkat's lesson that Honour Serves The Goal and he taught this in his turn. But after Hereward broke with Arkat he left his people and wandered the world in despair. Everywhere he went he trod in the footsteps of destruction, for the world was overcome with war. He travelled in each direction seeking guidance from renowned men and teachers, but everyone called on him to follow one side or the other. Unable to choose a way he did nothing, and so was forced to watch in agony as everything around him was destroyed. Finally there were no direction left to travel and he retreated inside himself to escape the horror of the world. There he found the truth and returned, re-armed, to lead his people against the enemy. Afterwards Hereward taught that Honour Is The Goal

nuanarpoq wrote:
6. hereward retains his air connection

Kao Nashi wrote:

"identity in the face of chaos"

I'd never thought of it exactly that way, but that's spot on for a description of Rashoran's gift. It is, I believe, the only robust answer to the questions of loss, death and evil. E.g., humans can't overcome death, but they can say "I am here, and my dying will re-affirm my identity because I am going to die like myself." The same applies in the face of torture and other horrors.
quote]

Re-reading that, it seems very similar to the way each Heortling is supposed to face I-Fought-We-Won. Insisting on one's own individuality and responsibility, even in the face of obvious overwhelming defeat.

It also seems to have parallels with the end of the green age, when the whole concept of individuality was more or less invented.

Or am I completely on the wrong track here? In both cases,the timing/dating is way out, but the concept seems to be similar.

Ron Edwards wrote: I'm thinking that at the philosophical level, two "truth" concepts might be a big deal for those who emulate Hereward. Especially since the core concept for Humakti involves applying Death. Which of the two is Real truth? Who knows?

As I read the source material you guys have linked to, the more Newsalor's brief comment makes sense: there's some serious bad blood between Hereward and the legacy of Rashoran. (By the way, there's no mention of Tarumath in Cults of Terror; must be a King of Dragon Pass thing.) Now, what does that bad blood entail?

... because the second sort of truth does seem a little more Hereward-like, you know? Did Hereward, in rejecting Arkat, actually reject what Nysalor offered, or come closer to it? Such questions always arise when dealing with Nysalor/Gbaji ...

Jane wrote: On Rashoron: as you can see from the bits of conversation between me and "Kao Nashi" quoted above, we're wondering what Humakt's definition of "justice" is based on, since it clearly isn't the Orlanthi idea of "my kin, right or wrong", but nor is it a RW/C21 definition (even if we had a clear one of those!). The Rashoron connection gives us some idea of why he gets a "pure" justice, but as yet very little idea of just what it is.

Hi there,

Newsalor, I'm not sure if you saw my apology to you on the first page. Take a peek if you missed it.

Your Pelandan game sounds great, and I'd like to know more about it. A new thread about it would be perfect. (The Pelandans seem like the nicest people in Glorantha, don't they?) Please don't consider any dialogue in this forum to suggest that you need to change your game to satisfy anyone. That's not a goal here - keep your game the way you like it, and present stuff from it so that everyone can learn.

I would be especially interested, in this thread, to learn about how the Carmanian worship of Hum'Akt might be involved (or not involved) with the Rashoran/Humakt connection during Godtime. Do Carmanians get mixed up into your characters' business, in your story so far?

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: What strikes me most (and struck me way back when, in my first reading of Cults of Prax in the late 70s) about Humakt is that he's not an Orlanthi god. He's integrated into the Orlanthi culture and pantheon (as an alternative path), much like he's integrated into dozens of others. Ernalda is similar, especially given a close reading of Glorantha: an introduction to the Hero Wars (2000).

nuanarpoq wrote:

Jane wrote: On Rashoron: as you can see from the bits of conversation between me and "Kao Nashi" quoted above, we're wondering what Humakt's definition of "justice" is based on, since it clearly isn't the Orlanthi idea of "my kin, right or wrong", but nor is it a RW/C21 definition (even if we had a clear one of those!). The Rashoron connection gives us some idea of why he gets a "pure" justice, but as yet very little idea of just what it is.

well, as has been pointed out we're gonna quickly get into trouble if we talk in generalities, i think. humakt's concept of justice will vary according to the culture in which he is being worshipped.

Jane wrote: But the whole point of the Rashoron connection is that Humakt also has an absolute definition of truth, justice, and so on that is not dependent on the society he's in, and is the cause of most of his conflicts with that society. After all, according to one version of the story at least, he severed his relationship with Orlanth because of a disagreement over the nature of justice.

Variations on that theme, sure. Variations we can do. YHWV. But I'd really like to get a better handle on the main theme, and I'm not sure how to do it. So far we have, I think, been treating C21 morality as the main theme to some extent (unavoidable). Perhaps if we looked at all the known variations in the cult and established what they have in common?

nuanarpoq wrote: [well, as has been pointed out we're gonna quickly get into trouble if we talk in generalities, i think. humakt's concept of justice will vary according to the culture in which he is being worshipped. amongst the orlanthi justice comes from orlanth through andrin, heort etc. humakti have obvious roles within non-humakti communities as jurors, witnesses and so forth. they are seen as impartial, and sheathed within the community their honour and oath magics can serve justice, bu they are not the source of it.

Hi Ian,

Looks like a typo gotcha in your parenthesis about p. 90 in Storm Tribes - clarify? I'm following this discussion very closely and don't want to miss anything.

Regarding Humakt's relationship with Justice in general, I think that in practice, Humakt's relationship with Truth will see action in instances involving justice. In other words, people enmeshed in some issue or conflict involving justice will turn to Truth, and quite likely, Truth as it relates to killing. It could be about who killed someone, or about whether we kill someone for what they've done, or anything like these. The Hereward game seems to be outstandingly focused on generating these issues and grappling with them through the medium of play.

So even if baseline Humakti myths and principles aren't about justice, I can see that Hero Cults and Hero Bands based on Humakti sub-myths or local history will quite likely swing in that direction.

I do agree with you about the Thed issue, by the way, mainly because rape is not killing.

Best,
Ron

Interesting thread, just a few comments.

The idea of a Humakt cult that retains the air connection is interesting. The orlanthi see a strong connection between breath and life, so obviously since the dead nolonger breathe the god of death is no god of air. But perhaps this subcult have found Humakt in the last breath exhaled by a dying man? But a subcult such as this isn't just about what you gain by such a connection, but also what you lose. Breath is a thing of life, and so perhaps this subcult blurs the distinction between the living and the dead in some way? The Lismelder humakti (anti-undead specialists) would surely have something to say about that!

I think the truth element of the Humakt cult is often taken very much out of context. For example someone mentioned their hero band being against slavery, and another said something about humakt being against rape. I realy can't see where any of this comes from. Taking thrals is an honourable heortling activity, and Humakt has no anti-chaos aspects whatsoever. It's even reputed that Ralzakark (a king of the broos) has a unit of humakti broo at his disposal. I think that's an exageration, but there's nothing impossible about it. All mortal things have a relationship with the god of death.

Humakt is not a god of society, he is a god of individuals because ultimately we all face death alone. Also I don't see justice 'in the world' as being much of an attribute of humakt. What release can the victim of any crime or any injustice expect from a god of death?

Simon Hibbs

simon_hibbs wrote:
The idea of a Humakt cult that retains the air connection is interesting. The orlanthi see a strong connection between breath and life, so obviously since the dead no longer breathe the god of death is no god of air. But perhaps this subcult have found Humakt in the last breath exhaled by a dying man?

I think the truth element of the Humakt cult is often taken very much out of context. For example someone mentioned their hero band being against slavery, .... Taking thrals is an honourable heortling activity,

Humakt is not a god of society, he is a god of individuals because ultimately we all face death alone.

Also I don't see justice 'in the world' as being much of an attribute of humakt. What release can the victim of any crime or any injustice expect from a god of death?

Jane wrote:

simon_hibbs wrote: Humakt is not a god of society, he is a god of individuals because ultimately we all face death alone.

Oh, nice point! Although it emphasises Death over Truth.

Also I don't see justice 'in the world' as being much of an attribute of humakt. What release can the victim of any crime or any injustice expect from a god of death?

True, but again you're emphasising Death over Truth. Humakt is supposed to be a god of honour. When his worshippers are asked to choose who to help, who to support, who to execute, on what basis do they make that judgement? It isn't "kill them all, let Humakt sort them out." Nor is it based on the law system of whatever society they happen to have been born into, or to be operating within at the time. (At least, it shouldn't be. Half the roleplaying fun is the fallible human heroes failing to leave their cultural biases behind!)

Hi there,

Simon, those are some great points. Here's my thinking on one of them which goes back to my point about "Truth by principle, but justice when the rubber hits the road" a bit back.

What release can the victim of any crime or any injustice expect from a god of death?

Ian Cooper wrote:
Do you see justice as a primary Humakti concern? Is Humakt concerned with justice as society understands it? I always assumed he was concerned with honor - and that what was what his possession of the truth rune represented.

I have in in mind the Germanic warrior code of the 'comitatus' (see Tacitus, but I also have a great book by Pollington called the English Warrior which has some good info on saxon warrior rituals),

Indeed p.90 of Storm tribe .... justice stated to be concerned mostly with courage and honor.

ST90 wrote:
His initiates serve him by obeying his rules of justice. He encourages honor and courage...

Obviously to the wider extent that society recognizes or provides the warrior's code of honor Humakt may be involved in the enforcement of 'correct' behaviour, but as you say Orlanth is the source of the rules that allow men to live together.

indeed one suspects that the main point that Rashoran revealed to Humakt was that your origin, chaotic or not, does not dictate your chances of upholding a code of honor.

nuanarpoq wrote: it may be true that Humakt himself retains a single identity, but he's a god - too much for one mortal mind to adhere to.

nuanarpoq wrote:
i like the idea that that the particular strictures of any individual honour code are less important than *the spirit of the warrior who cleaves to it*. this is another rashoran-ish idea, i guess. whether the warrior thinks mercy or death is more appropriate to a fallen enemy is unimportant. what matters is why the warrior thinks mercy or death is the correct line to take. are they acting in accordance with their true nature?

William Shakespeare wrote:
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Hamlet, I.iii.58

Ron Edwards wrote: Looks like a typo gotcha in your parenthesis about p. 90 in Storm Tribes - clarify? I'm following this discussion very closely and don't want to miss anything.

quot;nuanarpoq] different subcults and temples will promote different aspects of honour codes, and these may become the basis for rivalry

Ron wrote: Release? Who knows. On the other hand, retribution, perfectly placed to sever the perpetrator from his or her gains, seems very likely to be desired by such a victim. Who could one turn to if not the (or a particular) Humakti?

Jane wrote:
Interesting idea, but no. This is Humakt as the North Wind. That sounds like a fun sub-cult, and one that perhaps I'd like to explore some time, but it isn't Hereward.

Jane" wrote: Quite possibly, but what do the Heortlings have to do with it? (Quite apart from the significant differences between thralls and slaves).

Jane wrote:

me wrote: Humakt is not a god of society, he is a god of individuals because ultimately we all face death alone.

Oh, nice point! Although it emphasises Death over Truth.

Also I don't see justice 'in the world' as being much of an attribute of humakt. What release can the victim of any crime or any injustice expect from a god of death?

True, but again you're emphasising Death over Truth.

simon_hibbs wrote: Heortling Humakti live in heortling society, so if you want to posit that they are against common heortling behaviour I think the onus is on you to demonstrate why. I fail to see why humakti would have anything in particular against slavery.

Hi there,

This is a combined response to Simon's question:

I can see the motive of the victim, but what is the motive of the Humakti? Why should he help any more than anyone else should?

if you want to talk the 'universal' attitude of humakt towards slavery, then the onus is equally on you to demonstrate why they wouldn't care.

Ron Edwards wrote: Quickie note: let's not get all wound up about who's got the onus about what!

No one is talking about "real" Humakti; there aren't any.

what "the Humakti would think," or "Humakti in general think" is only a starting point.

*snip*

I have been following this discussion with great interest as some of the issues raised are similar to questions I am starting to ask about my Humakti character.

I sense that he is at a crossroads, and the next few choices he makes will have the most profound effect on him and possibly on those around him.

Ian and Guy know the character as we all play in the same campaign together.

The cause is just - Defeat the Lunar Invaders and return the true heir of Sartar to the throne.

However a series of choices have been made which would be seen as decidely iffy by certain outside parties and even those with the same aims may be disturbed by them.

Duty and honour demand that he follows this through to the end, no matter what is needed. Justice may not. He will have to commit unjust acts, innocents may be harmed in the furthering of the cause. He keeps his honour and thus he feels his connection with his god by accepting this and then simply acting.

That is what I have seen this discussion to be about.

I may be wrong and I expect to be told so if I am.

Thank you for helping me clarify my approach to my character.

Mark

Some good points from Ron, I'm replying here with those in mind.

nuanarpoq wrote:
jane was refering to the fact that in our game the subcult does not originate amongst the heortlings, and that her character and several of the other player heroes are not heortlings. this came up earlier in the discussion, when we were also talking about the universality vs regional variation of humakt.

it may be fair to say that heortling humakti are indiffierent to slavery, dependent perhaps on their clan practices. but if you want to talk the 'universal' attitude of humakt towards slavery, then the onus is equally on you to demonstrate why they wouldn't care.

simon_hibbs wrote:

Fairy nuff, I missed that distinction since I didn't realise the subcult was non-heortling. Where is it from?

On slavery (new topic perhaps)?

it may be fair to say that heortling humakti are indiffierent to slavery, dependent perhaps on their clan practices. but if you want to talk the 'universal' attitude of humakt towards slavery, then the onus is equally on you to demonstrate why they wouldn't care.

In fact I'm hard pressed to think of any genertelan culture that doesn't practice slavery in one form or other. I don't see why being humakti would cause someone's attitude in this respect to be different from the norm.

simon_hibbs wrote: Some good points from Ron, I'm replying here with those in mind.

nuanarpoq wrote:
jane was refering to the fact that in our game the subcult does not originate amongst the heortlings, and that her character and several of the other player heroes are not heortlings. this came up earlier in the discussion, when we were also talking about the universality vs regional variation of humakt.

Fairy nuff, I missed that distinction since I didn't realise the subcult was non-heortling. Where is it from?

Simon wrote: I don't see why being humakti would cause someone's attitude in this respect to be different from the norm.

Ron comments that:

No myth or myth-system in Glorantha can withstand what's happening in the setting. I think one can see the fault lines in both Orlanthi and Solar culture cracking apart already; finding such gaps and cracks is where the system of the game really shines in the long-term. For me, anyway, scenario creation is all about bringing this into the forefront of everyone's attention.

The cause is just - Defeat the Lunar Invaders and return the true heir of Sartar to the throne.

However a series of choices have been made which would be seen as decidely iffy by certain outside parties and even those with the same aims may be disturbed by them.

Interestign discussion. I'm sorry if I went off at a bit of a tangent on the slavery thing, but I've been thinking about it a bit recently. I've half decided that if I get to pay HQ again, and if the concept fist the game, I'd be interested in playing a slave trader character.

Perhaps it comes from watching Gladiator too many times, but it seems to me that they fill an important ecomonic and social niche in ancient society. Some people were even willing to sell themselves into slavery rather than starve to death, and anyway there's a log and fine tradition of slave owning in Gloranthan gaming going all the way back to Biturian Varosh.

Angling back on topic, of course Ron is absolutely right that the Hero wars are all about re-examining social norms and looking for new answers to old questions to save the world. Either that, or all this re-examining and looking for new answers is actualy destroying the world. Actualy it's quite hard to tell which, but certainly standing on the sidelines simply isn't an option.


Simon Hibbs

simon_hibbs wrote: Interestign discussion. I'm sorry if I went off at a bit of a tangent on the slavery thing,