Based on my experiences at the last two cons selling other folks' games, I have to close my open offer to sell books for other game publishers/designers.

Basically, my suspicions have been born out: I am going to be stuck with a lot books that don't sell themselves. Without someone there to demo and promote these games, and without being completely comfortable with them myself, the games just don't sell. And I've tried! I push, I praise, I laud!

So I wanted to close that portion of my offer: I can no longer accept books to be sold on my table unless the designer (or some other knowledgeable person) is going to be present.

If there are any game designers that wish to come to conventions with me and share space and expenses I would be delighted to have you. My offer still stands that I will provide very comfortable crash space for the con weekend in sunny Manhattan.

Of course, my next con is in Philly in December and I'll be spending the weekend down there, but you are still welcome to join me! I'll have the Forge stuff!

-Luke

Hey Luke,

So, you have one unsold copy of My Life with Master left in your inventory? It's yours. Sell it in Philly in December if you want, or keep it for yourself.

Honestly though, I think you'll come up with a way of doing Forge East that works for you. Perhaps you might re-envision yourself as less of a Forge representative, and more of a retailer who does business at conventions advocating and selling indie games. Give out Forge business cards and fliers, sure, but in the same way a hobby store might give out promotional stuff. And otherwise be selective about what indie games you take to conventions. It seems to me a retailer really only ought to stock product he knows he can sell. I imagine having a bunch of product you've agreed to try and sell is a hard one, because in doing so, you're also carrying the damp sales hopes of the designers who provided you with product. And you're a good guy, so it feels like you've failed people who put their trust in you. Maybe instead have a policy of paying X% of cover, up front, for games you want to stock. Designers can decide whether to sell them to you or not at that price and it's entirely a business transation. No damp hopes, because they accepted your terms and made a sale. And if you find that you need to discount your stock in order to move it, you can make that decision.

Paul

the goal of my effort was to create a Forge booth (a la GenCon) in miniature at the smaller cons I am going to. Without the active support of other game designers, or appreciable financial contribution, my efforts have quickly turned into a "store".

Not quite what I intended or really even wanted.

-L

Although I have decided to work in a MLWM game into my conventioning in the near future. I really loved the game.

I have already come up with a alternative setting - a little apartment in NYC. And the master? Well, if you can't figure it out... :)

Since I have shared a table with Luke twice with the Forge stuff, I'm going to chime in:

I think the idea of Forge East is great. But I think it need to be beyond just Luke selling stuff at a table. I think it has to be a larger effort to create a greater indie presence where the kids are shelling out the bucks.

I grew up hanging out in the indie-music scene. It grew to have a huge influence on the music industry because the kids all helped each other out to promote their bands. Playing together, promoting each other sharing tables at shows to sell tapes & CDs.

People come up to be table knowing about the Forge and 1 product. So, you guys are out there and making waves. I think that seeing the Forge at cons is only going to help everyone sell better, even if not selling a book at that time. Brand recognition is essential.

Teaming up creates associations. I noticed gamers who had read about Sorcerer coming up and buying Universalis as well. Kids who had played Burning Wheel might pick up one of my shirts. The more stuff we have, the better chance that someone will stop to look at everything.

Why can't we create something akin to SJ's MIB? Have a team of volunteers running games at cons where a Forge dealer table also is selling the goods.

I think that everyone's on the same page in terms of what would make for a superior Forge presence in these cases. Nobody's arguing that the "store" model is better or anything.

The problem that's being ignored, and may be insurmountable, is that there are only a few people with products or the extra-ordinary motivation who would be willing to support such a booth to start. Let's be optimistic and guess, what, 50? And those people who can go to GenCon for the most part. The question is why would they go to a con the size of the ones that Luke is attending?

Heck, I don't attend ones that size that are near me (well rarely), and I think that few people do. It's not that I wouldn't like to attend Lollagazebo, it's that I live a thousand miles away, and can only afford to make a couple of cons each year, timewise. Uh, consider me there in spirit?

Basically, it's completely uneconomical for people to come to these Cons. Small attendance means small sales, and there are only a few for whom travel to these sites wouldn't be economically unfeasible. Heck, if making money were the only reason that I went to GenCon, I wouldn't go to GenCon. Because, even in that environment, you aren't going to make a lot of money, likely. Con's just aren't a money-making proposition.

So there has to be another motivation to go outside of money. Well, GenCon is just worth going to all by itself. I'd be going whether I had a game or not (in fact I didn't this year). The booth is just another neat thing going on at the convention.

My point is that you aren't going to get many to attend if they weren't already pretty predisposed to come anyhow. Given that these Cons aren't all that attractive to start, and that there are few interested Forge folks in any particular area (one per state on average?), you're just never likely to have a pool of people attending. It's just not realistic.

Now, if you were to select one large Con (DragonCon?), and have a booth there as an annual event, then I think you might have a shot at getting some people to show. Maybe. But expecting people to follow a convention train like gypsies just isn't likely to work, IMO.

Mike

I'm not saying that I think everyone should go to every con. I just am intrigued by Luke's effort to create a larger indie presence at the smaller cons. I don't wanna see it fade away.

Personally, I'm new to the whole going to conventions thing myself. I've been gaming since... but have only been to a couple cons, smaller ones at that.

Money - shmoney, I don't think anyone is ever in any "indie" thing for the big bucks - be it movies, music or gaming. It's getting your stuff out there and having some fun.

Mike Holmes wrote:
But expecting people to follow a convention train like gypsies just isn't likely to work, IMO.
Mike

I can't speak for Mike, but for myself I'm still evaluating the value of attending local cons. This weekend in Rochester is going to be expensive, and I'm going to be scrutinizing the outcome pretty severely before I commit to more cons (although I am committed to Ubercon III in the spring).

I don't sell enough to pay for it; that's a given. The question next is, do I create enough interest in Multiverser for others to buy it after the con? That's something I don't know.

I won't say that Luke is being unfair in his decision here; however, I recall that at least twice I asked if I could help in any way, or sit for him at the table, and he always indicated he had everything under control. Of course, I was not familiar enough with the games on display that I could actually run them--I'm learning Sorcerer only now (although I know much about it from years on the forums, I've not run nor played it yet), and other than Multiverser all I knew about the games there was from online exposure here.

That may be an inherent problem in what Luke seeks. I can imagine going to a convention and running demos (assuming there's a place for that), but I'd have to know the game. Maybe I'm a slow reader; I can demo Alyria, Multiverser, and a bunch of games that have been out of print longer than some of these cons have been in business. Give me a bit of time, and I'll be able to demo Sorcerer. I've got a copy of Burning Wheel; but Luke was pretty set as far as that goes, since he could leave the table in the capable hands of his partners and run his own game quite effectively (we watched part of a demo, and were impressed enough to pick up the game). I'll have to find the time to read that, too--and time is not something of which I've got a lot to spare. That still leaves me with Universalis, MLwM, and the several other games that were there--and all of these are relatively short texts; I would love to have people demo Multiverser because they fell in love with it and enjoyed running it, but can hardly ask Ralph or Mike or Paul to learn the system because I'm learning their games. There are a lot of games to learn, and the volunteers have to know the ones that are actually on the table to be useful in that fashion.

And if I'm correctly reading between the lines, Luke is somewhere hoping that people who don't have published games but who want to see independent games succeed would come to the cons and help out the Forge booth by running demos of the games available. Again, I'd love to see that happen, but they have to learn the games. These are all great games, and worth playing, but how many people have time to learn them all well enough to run them rather off the cuff? I can run Multiverser that way, and D&D from years of experience; but if you asked me to run Star Frontiers, or Metamorphosis Alpha, or even Legends of Alyria, it would take me a bit of a start to get going. Even when we pull out some of our board games, even if we have played them fifty times, we still often have to scan the rules to remember a few bits here and there.

Luke, what would we have to do, assuming we could get to the conventions at which you're running the table, to support your efforts?

I will give you this much for nothing: any retailer who is willing to put my books on his table and sell them on my behalf at a con can pay me 50% of MSRP and pocket the difference. I know that doesn't help as much as having me pay for your table space, but it's certainly something, and something more than "here, put this on the table and see if it sells for me".

I'm just not certain what would help.

--M. J. Young

Looking at the setup for the Indie-Forge table at Lollagazebo, I quite liked the idea. The table was a nice showcase of what could be bought, what is available and coming over and talking to Luke was fun, and honestly IMHO it works to some degree. I was thinking about this thread last night and came up with a silly idea.
Yes there should be an Indie Forge table at small cons, and yes a nice rack (minds out of the gutter please) of the Indie games is a great thing, BUT!!!
If a demo person cannot be provided for running a game, then the designer should have to do one of 2 things.
1. Provide a demo person to go to the convention, and run materials and play pied piper and bring demo people back to the table to make a sale (or sacrifice)
2. Pay the booth person a fee to 1, sell/promote the game and 2 possible get someone to come out and run demos in the designers/comapnies place. Alot of cons have thier own demo team and are happy to run demos for prize support and product.

I want to start doing the NJ convention tour next year with my RPG Bad Muthas and would be very interested in working with the BW people as far as table at the con thing goes.
I am new to this community (the forge that is) so I may be talking out of my Arse, but I am interested in how this works.

Going to conventions, just from the perspective of someone looking to have fun, not even someone who's going to go work, is a lot of work. I work a full time job. I have a wife two younguns. I'm busy getting our acreage bedded down for the winter (I'm late!). I made time for Lollagazebo because I wanted to play Sorcerer and Universalis, primarily because Michael PMed me about it a couple months ago.

But the idea of making that happen six or seven times during a year is daunting. And it would be no less, and perhapse more, so if I had wares to hawk and all the attendant obligations and responsibilities.

Dregg suggests that the indie publishers should be providing a demo person or payment to get their stuff out to the cons. Well, sure...but who can justify it? I haven't done the numbers the way those of you with games must have, but I can only imagine that the only way to keep the venture profitable (assuming that's a goal) is to limit expenses pretty dramatically. Seriouly, I would have an easier time coming up with $6K to do a small print run for a game than I would freeing up fifteen weekends during the year for promotion.

I think the real situation is that it has to be an effort of love. If Luke is really rewarded on a personal level by mass convention attendance, then he'll do it. If that starts to wear thin, he'll stop. I doubt the money will ever justify it. I saw him run Sunday afternoon. He's either a great actor or was having lots of fun.

If Forgites want to do a group con thing, I'd suggest the locals target a specific medium to largeish con (I don't mean GenCon sized) a year in advance, put together a contingent of Forgites who're committed to going (which could include people like me with no game, but would really need to center on the publishers), and work with the con organizers to get a strong presense worked out. There should be a Forge booth in the dealer's room with multiple publishers/authors present. There should be a dedicated demo space for Forge presentations. And the kind of guerrilla advertising that Luke was doing (cards and stickers all over the con) should be done by all, particularly referring back to the Forge areas. How many more author types would travel for such an event if free crash space were available instead of costly hotel rooms? (I'm thinking that the hotel room or air fair must be the largest monetary barrier.)

Chris

Christopher Weeks wrote:
Dregg suggests that the indie publishers should be providing a demo person or payment to get their stuff out to the cons. Well, sure...but who can justify it? I haven't done the numbers the way those of you with games must have, but I can only imagine that the only way to keep the venture profitable (assuming that's a goal) is to limit expenses pretty dramatically. Seriouly, I would have an easier time coming up with $6K to do a small print run for a game than I would freeing up fifteen weekends during the year for promotion.

Mike bleakly noted that there are maybe 50 individuals devoted to promoting an indie-rpg in the US. This is probably true.

Chris notes that spending 15 weekends at cons is just not feasible. Again, this is probably true for most people.

Using Mike's number, let's say those 50 Forgites go to 1 con a year (Not including GenCon) and promote indie games with stickers, flyers, logos and cards.

That's 50 cons worth of exposure for all of us.

And if they go to one extra con a year just to do indie-rpg promotion? You can do the math.

I am not saying that all games need to be promoted by all designers at every con. But just working on disseminating the idea that there is a game-design/publishing underground that produces fantastic and beautiful work is an early and major hurdle.

I've found that getting kids to actually play BW was the only sure fire way to sell them on the game. Forum- or review-based sales are a significant portion of my numbers, but i suspect the majority of those sets go sit on bookshelves.

The only way i've been able to consistently expose players to actual play is by hitting local cons and making a presence. SJ, WW, and WotC do it. I think this is a place where we should follow their model.

-L

I think Luke and I have a good set-up, because I don't need to demo my shirts (unless cons start having a runway show).

I'll take the time to read the back of all the books and get a decent knowledge of them and pitch what I can when Luke is away. If I had a printed out sheet with the info and points - I could be a better salesman.

If you can team-up with a local store or non-demoing booth, you can do a nice tag-team. As long as it doesn't take away from my ability to pitch my own stuff, I'm more than happy to get someone interested in an indie game.

nerdnyc wrote: I think Luke and I have a good set-up, because I don't need to demo my shirts (unless cons start having a runway show).

I'll take the time to read the back of all the books and get a decent knowledge of them and pitch what I can when Luke is away. If I had a printed out sheet with the info and points - I could be a better salesman.

If you can team-up with a local store or non-demoing booth, you can do a nice tag-team. As long as it doesn't take away from my ability to pitch my own stuff, I'm more than happy to get someone interested in an indie game.

abzu wrote: Using Mike's number, let's say those 50 Forgites go to 1 con a year (Not including GenCon) and promote indie games with stickers, flyers, logos and cards.

That's 50 cons worth of exposure for all of us.

LordSmerf wrote:
The problem with this is that if i understand you correctly we would also need 50 different displays/product sets. That or some way to pass them around.

LordSmerf wrote: I think the idea of planning on doing a few booths at larger cons. If we do a total of, say, 5 cons a year (+ GenCon) then we can gather maybe three or four Forgites at each one (maybe more) and also not have to worry so much about having enough display sets...

Thomas

abzu wrote: HOWEVER, even doing a big collaborative booth at four cons a year would greatly raise the visibility of every game discussed on this site.

I'll be at Origins, GenCon and DragonCon myself. I would love to have company.

-L

Luke, the reason that I, and I presume most of the people who do not attend many little local cons, do not, is that we probably have other things to do. Like, for instance in my case, not abandoning my pregnant wife with my 3 yr old any more than I do so that she doesn't divorce me. Apparently 4 RPG sessions a week and four cons a year are her limit. Damn the wench for being so possessive of my time! ;-)

Oh, and I'm one of the people who would do it locally once a year (how 'bout next Gamefest?). See, I'm one of the fifty, I do go to GenCon. If you had been doing this here, you'd have had my support for at least one Con, maybe more. By my math, every one of those fifty who were near enough to you to make it did attend your cons - as a statistician I'd offer the actual results as proof. Manhattan may be the epicenter of the universe for many things, but Gaming is not one of them.

What I'm saying is that what makes the pool so small is that there are a very limited number of people in any locality who have reason to have an interest in doing this sort of thing. If you want to make this happen, you'll have to actively recruit folks somehow, not just ask for help. And I'm not sure what you can offer that'll make people motivated enough to help out.

OTOH, there's always Dregg. :-)

Mike

Thanks Mike for yet another bleak assessment of the situation!

I was never asking my efforts to be the epic-center of non-GenCon Forge activity. What I am trying to do is provide a model for replicating the incredible experience of the GenCon Forge booth in miniature at various locations around the country (and hopefully world?).

I suppose, according to your analysis, that my biggest failing was in my rampant idealism. I assumed (deliberate word choice) that other game designers would be interested in attending cons in their area and promoting not only their games, but other games with the same spirit.

Oh foolish me! I thought I would be the first of many. Oops!

Well, having passed through the gauntlet and come of age--I'm posting as an "adult" now-- I can safely say that I will continue to support and endorse actual, real-live, in the flesh, collaboration, DIY and mutual support. I will continue to promote the Forge as a venue for said ideals.

I think many people on the Forge fail to realize how utterly unique this place is. There are few forums so well-suited to the aforementioned support and collaboration. RPGs have always been DIY, but having a mutually supportive design community, plus our own channels of distribution and advertising is major strength.


The experience of being at GenCon with all you liked-minded folk was eye-opening to say the least. I will continue to try to attempt to recreate and spread said experience.


blah blah blah blah.
I don't really have anything more to say on the matter.
if anyone wants to come to cons with me or wants me to come to a con, let me know. Maybe you could run a couple of games of Universalis? ;)!

-L

OK, cool, now that I've crushed your idealism, we can get to work. The point is that your vision is an excellent one. I like everything you said in the above post. Now the question is, without any Pollyanna hopes of people volunteering in droves, how can we make it happen anyhow? Basically, what it needs is some form of further incentive of some sort.

Now, we can't offer money, I think we'd agree, so what else do we have to offer besides our good company, and fun at conventions? I don't have much off the top, but perhaps some brainstorming would result in some effects.

Like how about if the people who want to have their products there for sale donate a copy of their game. Then these get raffled off to the booth participants, or distributed in some similar manner. People love free stuff...

Brainstorming people. What random ideas do you have?

Mike