I'm fairly convinced that Fastlane is pretty close to being ready for pdf publishing (I want at least an ashcan physical product ready for Indy, but a pdf seems appropriate to start). Its rules are relatively complete, it is playable (and has been playtested a number of times to confirm this).

That said, the whole idea of art in an rpg book actually contributing to the game baffles me. Entirely. I don't notice it, as far as I can tell it does not impact me, and any mention of it being a positive factor in a game pretty much causes my eyes to glaze over. I'm aware, intellectually, that it is a positive boon for the majority of the members of the RPG community, but it is a concept I simply am unable to grasp emotionally, where it's most likely to count.

So, it's become increasing obvious that I need to hire someone (or stumble across someone willing to volunteer, but less be realistic here) who is actually able to grasp these concepts, who can (a) provide interior art* for Fastlane, and (b) can layout the text and art so they actually complement each other in such a way that they'd actually appeal to the potential average consumer. As long as I'm dreaming, I'd also like this phantom person to be able to design a character sheet and other game-use documents and diagrams.

Where could I find such a saviour? And how much would his services cost?

*Only interior art. A pdf has no real cover, per se, so I am not going to put any thought whatsoever into cover art until I have to create a physical copy of the game, which would have a cover.

About a cover, surely you'll need one, even in PDF? It just won't be a book cover, but a recognizable picture you put on your web-page or wherever you sell the thing. The central picture is as important in web-marketing as in old-style, I'd say, as it really is what focuses your product. Take a look how mr. Edwards has structured his Sorcerer-pages: the cover is a pivotal element there.

Anyway, most of those things you mention are actually relatively easy to do. Layout, if you really have no eye for it (which is hard to believe, as it's mostly a matter of good taste), can be done by plagiarizing a similar product. For the character sheets, layout and such you'll only need a heavy text editor like word, and a pdf-converter or whatever-those-programs-are-called.

The art is really the only problem, as one would have to know how to draw or something. Consider using abstract art or photographs, which neither have to date been used too succesfully in rpgs, but are certainly a stable in other products. If you yourself don't really care about it, my advice would be to use only the minimum amount, which really is almost zero with the right layout (but don't forget that iconic cover art, it's important).

I'd expect somebody to volunteer in a while, but if nobody does, PM me. I can help with the edit/layout angle at least, as long as you don't need magazine level effects there (talking about that Word, I am, if I'm working for free).

I've never really seen a book cover as very identifiable in marketing, but then I'm not really privy to the inner thoughts of the vast majority of humans, who are one or two standard deviations away from me. It's always seemed (to me) that the displaying-of-a-cover was just a placeholder, or a way for people to maybe recognize the same book if they see it physically in a store.

Is it really all that pivotal?

(Maybe this should be in the publishing forum? Hrm.)

Layout - Yes, I really have no eye for it. I know what works for me, which is very different for "what works for someone who actually pays attention to these things." The only time I notice layout is when it gets in the way.

Art is also a problem for me because, not only would I have to know how to draw something, as you pointed out, but also I would need to have some idea of what art would complement a section, and where the art should go, etc., which in part goes back to layout, and in part goes to the whole "I'm not a visual person" thing. To me, interior art in a gaming product usually sabotages the accompanying text, by drawing the eye away from the text and to the art.

If you yourself don't really care about it, my advice would be to use only the minimum amount, which really is almost zero with the right layout.

Lx, my suggestion would be to talk to Luke Crane who did The Burning Wheel. He's abzu on the Forge. I don't know if you've ever seen the Burning Wheel books, but they are in my opinion the best looking RPG books ever made. They are also the best looking paperbacks i've ever seen, and i think they look way nice than most hardcovers. Part of it's the colors, part simplicity, part some undefinable something. Cover art is not a big deal, it almost blends in with the cover itself. So i guess i would say that cover art is not a nessecity, but some sort of logo is. You do want something for people to remember...

Thomas

Original Traveller had no art. It contributed to its unique style, imho.

InSpectres had no art.

I don't think art is nearly as important in a PDF game as in a dead tree edition.

In a PDF game people are spending their own (or their employer's...) $$ on ink, and they -- well, I -- resent being forced to spend a ton of it printing out art. I want black text on white pages, laid out in an easy to read way, and that's all, in a PDF game.

If I have to spend my precious ink on art, it better be absolutely tremendously wonderful art -- and it better be black on white, preferably thin lines. :)

The print version of InSpectres has art (I just checked!). For whatever reason, I don't have access to the pdf. I also know nothing about Original Traveller, as it was Before My Time.

However, I'd like the same amount of art in the pdf and dead tree editions of the game, so any interior art decisions I make, I'm making now, not later. I take your point on using as little ink as possible though, something I completely agree on.

I'm also taking Euro's commentary about an "iconic cover image" under advisement. Right now I'm thinking of a photograph of just a roulette wheel, up close.

Just to be clear, the current version of Inspectres has art, but the original did not. I have a printed copy, and it's got a small Inspectres logo on the front, and that's as close to anything like art that's in it. In fact, Jared's point in doing so was to make it look like the sort of training manual that you get when you join a corporation. And I think that version succeeds admirably at that. I was sad to see art in the new edition.

I guess my point is that if you can make the lack of art a feature of the presentation, that this probably goes a long way to making it palatable for some folks who prefer to have art.

OTOH, I'm biased, as I pretty much would prefer all my gaming material to be without art. I think it's interesting that only RPGs have art in their rules.

Mike

I'm a strong proponent of 0% art.

But those people who are my purported consumers have convinced that, in order to be consumed, my game should have art.

Perhaps I should spit in their faces and create a game without visual art. It's certainly the more attractive options.

Which just leads layout, of which I've gotten a few offers already.

And to be further clear, the new InSpectres with art is also intended to be a coporate training manual. Of course, I think it succeeded in that spectacularly. Ahem. ....

"I know Jared Sorensen, Mr. Quayle, and you're no Jared Sorensen."

No art works. For anyone. Just get a layout that acknowledges this. Not an easy task, I argue (and not without experience!).

Lxndr wrote: It's always seemed (to me) that the displaying-of-a-cover was just a placeholder, or a way for people to maybe recognize the same book if they see it physically in a store.

Is it really all that pivotal?

If you yourself don't really care about it, my advice would be to use only the minimum amount, which really is almost zero with the right layout.

I would love, LOVE to believe this. But the games that seem to sell, and the comments of hundreds or thousands of consumers, seem to suggest that "almost zero" is a sin, rather than a goal to be attained.

I'm also taking Euro's commentary about an "iconic cover image" under advisement. Right now I'm thinking of a photograph of just a roulette wheel, up close.

Ack. I think I elided your name. Sorry bout that.

Well, off to hire a photographer to get me a roulette wheel photo...

I believe there's some links to stock photo places in one of the Forge pages.

I''d be willing, but I'm not sure about my available time...to create some art ...but I can't commit right now.

Dissenting opinion here.*

*art. art! Art! ART! ART!!!! 0% art sucks! Not just sucks, but blows hairy goatballs. I like art. I want art. Art does not get in my way. In fact, I want more art. I want graphic, friggin' novels. I want words AND pictures! Make it a narrated movie and I'll orgasm.

No Raven, its okay, tell us how you really feel. :)

Alex, I'm interested in helping you out with it. As for the whole Art/no art thing, I don't think a lot of art is necessary. It can be helpful in communicating your vision for the game (not everyone is entirely text based...heh) but not strictly necessary. I would go Logo or small illo on the cover with the title and keep the interior pretty clean I think.


regards,

Trevis

I've started a new thread for "Art: Yea or Nay?" in Publishing:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8725

Now let's keep this thread to "Lxndr Finding Layout (and maybe Art) Gurus"? :)

So I'm still looking for a Layout Guru (I've decided to follow the advice in both threads and avoid art, instead hoping to find a layout that would be able to survive in an artless context).

Although a volunteer is the best option, I am more than willing to pay. Seriously. One person contacted me in private messages, but I haven't heard back from him.

Lxndr wrote: So I'm still looking for a Layout Guru (I've decided to follow the advice in both threads and avoid art, instead hoping to find a layout that would be able to survive in an artless context).

Although a volunteer is the best option, I am more than willing to pay. Seriously. One person contacted me in private messages, but I haven't heard back from him.

i'd be insane to take on another project, but...

how many pages (roughly)
how many words?

what size?

color or bw?

how about a budget? is there one?

how much of an idea do you have of the layout?

do you have a preference for fonts or style?

three lines describing the theme of the content.

how much control are you willing to give to your designer?

oh, and do you like the overall look of the burning wheel books? (that's my core style. of course i'd vary it for other work, but you can get a good idea of my sensibilities in those books)

you can respond in public or email me.
whatever you'd prefer.

Here's what I've got, though I believe I may have found someone already (Matt Snyder, in point of fact):

* The document is roughly 25 8.5 x 11 single-column pages at the moment, though that includes several page breaks to help organize things for my own private use and some other weird formatting things. Add another page or two for the as-yet-unwritten glossary I've decided to include at the last minute.

* Microsoft Word counts 19,402 words, including headers and stuff. Once again, add a few more words for the as-yet-unwritten glossary.

* Definitely B/W if possible, though I'd like a color cover. And oddly enough, I have a pretty good idea what I want on that cover (a photograph of a roulette wheel).

* Size: I'm hoping to sell through rpgnow, using both pdf and print-on-demand. They have two available sizes, 8.5 x 11, and 4.25 x 5.5. I think I'd prefer the latter, assuming a person buying the pdf could still print it out on regular-sized paper. Not sure how that would work out, though, so I'm open to either size.

* My budget is flexible, but I'd prefer to keep it small. Matt Snyder is charging me $100 for the layout work, and I've still got to find a roulette wheel for the cover, and I'm thinking of hiring a proofreader to make sure that "Lxndr-speak" can be understood by people who don't even know me.

* How much of an idea? Besides "as little art as humanly possible" I really don't have much at all. One diagram that needs to be near one bit of text, and that's about it. This whole thing is "beyond my ken", so to speak.

Theme of the Content: Living fast until the world crashes down around you. Debauchery, dissipation, risks, rewards. Burning the candle at both ends.

How much control: A lot. If I don't like how something looks, I'll say so, but I'm not someone who really knows how something should look.

Burning Wheel: Overall, they're pretty nice. I'm odd in that I'd prefer something a LITTLE more spartan, art-wise. But you don't have enough art to INTERFERE with the game, like many books do.