So I'm working on designing some specific masters and the schools they represent. The Current project is converting what little we know of actual historical masters into a few key examples, and coming up with stats and info that is appropriate and as accurate as possible (which isn't much).

What I'm really doing here is putting out a request list for what you'd like to see (or not see) in a selection of fighting schools and their masters--both who and what.

Jake

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I guess that Asian guy who wrote The Art of War should be included?

Or a character based on Syrio Forel from A Game of Thrones.

Jake Norwood wrote: So I'm working on designing some specific masters and the schools they represent. The Current project is converting what little we know of actual historical masters into a few key examples, and coming up with stats and info that is appropriate and as accurate as possible (which isn't much).

What I'm really doing here is putting out a request list for what you'd like to see (or not see) in a selection of fighting schools and their masters--both who and what.

Jake

It has always struck me interesting how many ways of dealing with the opponent TROS has. I don't think I'd like to see new school-specific maneuvers or reduced costs or anything, but more like what kind of tactics each school tends to use. "The Burkhalter school in Stahl stresses the importance of not letting the enemy attack", or "The rapier master Duffy never attacks unless his enemy makes a mistake and leaves an opening." You could include examples of such good tactics and when they are useful.

We'd kind of have to include the author of the Book of Five Rings in any publication of this kind, wouldn't we?

Sun Tzu (The Art of War) is not known for founding a fighting school (to my knowledge) and, while Musashi Miyamoto is a fascinating character, I'm thinking that Jake is probably wanting to focus on Occidental schools.

I may, of course, be wrong. :-)

(If so, by all means I'd like to see Nitto Tenchin Ryu, as well as Nakamura batto-do and Toyama ryu. LOL)

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

What I would look for:

Schools replace Proficiencies. I vies Proficiencies as a generic, "learned from a master whose name isn't famous enough for anyone to know", "learned it while drilling with the regiment" schools.

By contrast "learned it from Master Rudolph world renown master of the cut and thrust who's manual is read and employed by would be teachers across Wyerth" is something else.

I wouldn't have schools be an "extra" tacked on to the Proficiency. I'd have it completely instead of the Proficiency.

I'd have special extras as part of the school (that no mere Profieciency has) that reflect the ideals and beliefs of the master beyond simply moves and techniques.

For instance, a master who believes in the decisiveness of an aggressive attack might get a bonus whenever he uses more than 1/2 his dice in an attack on the first exchange, but only 1 die instead of two when employing the Defensive Stance.

A master who believe that everything stems from waiting for an opponent to committ and then reacting or preempting might have the Counter move at a lower activation cost, but might pay an activation cost for making a big attack not based on a Counter.

Obviously mix and match these to something that actually makes sense, but that's the angle I'd go from.

I hate to sound like a "me too," but I really like what Ralph wrote. I would also like to see some suggested guidelines for GM's who run their campaigns in worlds other than Wyerth.

Well given the name of the book Fiore dei Liberi, author of the other Flower of Battle has to be included.

Given that OBAM was a supplement for Wyerth, why wouldn't TFOB be any different. By that, I'm saying that it would surprise me if any real world schools were mentioned. I would assume, instead, that we'd get the Wyerth schools. No?

Mike

Camillus wrote: Well given the name of the book Fiore dei Liberi, author of the other Flower of Battle has to be included.

Mike Holmes wrote: Given that OBAM was a supplement for Wyerth, why wouldn't TFOB be any different. By that, I'm saying that it would surprise me if any real world schools were mentioned. I would assume, instead, that we'd get the Wyerth schools. No?

Mike

That Valamir Freak Ralph wrote: Schools replace Proficiencies. I vies Proficiencies as a generic, "learned from a master whose name isn't famous enough for anyone to know", "learned it while drilling with the regiment" schools.

Seth, son of Ezra wrote: while Musashi Miyamoto is a fascinating character, I'm thinking that Jake is probably wanting to focus on Occidental schools.

It has always struck me interesting how many ways of dealing with the opponent TROS has. I don't think I'd like to see new school-specific maneuvers or reduced costs or anything, but more like what kind of tactics each school tends to use. "The Burkhalter school in Stahl stresses the importance of not letting the enemy attack", or "The rapier master Duffy never attacks unless his enemy makes a mistake and leaves an opening." You could include examples of such good tactics and when they are useful.

I'm riffing off of Ralph's suggestion here.

To get a "school" you have to choose it as a skillset. Each "school" will act as a skillset replacing the generic "swordsman" skillset from the main book, and will give access to (though you'll still have to spend the proficiency points as normal) the proficiency side of the house.

I mean, an actual school teaches more than just the actual weapon-work, right? I know that I'm learning more than just throws and holds in Aikido, such as ki-breathing, one-point, and various other things which are outside of, but vital to, the actual techniques.

Jake Norwood wrote: So I'm working on designing some specific masters and the schools they represent. The Current project is converting what little we know of actual historical masters into a few key examples, and coming up with stats and info that is appropriate and as accurate as possible (which isn't much).

What I'm really doing here is putting out a request list for what you'd like to see (or not see) in a selection of fighting schools and their masters--both who and what.

Jake

Here's a good place for some art - just some diagrams about what aggressive / defensive type stances would look like in each school. Doesn't have to be fancy - hell they can be sketches.

Differentiating the schools by bonus would be interesting.

Background on the actual school in-game. What kind of fierce rivalries exist between practitioners of different schools? Tell us about some legendary duels that have been fought between schools. That sort of thing.

JD

Jake Norwood wrote: So I'm working on designing some specific masters and the schools they represent. The Current project is converting what little we know of actual historical masters into a few key examples, and coming up with stats and info that is appropriate and as accurate as possible (which isn't much).

What I'm really doing here is putting out a request list for what you'd like to see (or not see) in a selection of fighting schools and their masters--both who and what.

Jake

I'm with Overdrive on this one.

I'm happily relieved, if I understand correctly, that Jake won't be designing School specific Proficiencies. Nor even, bonuses particular schools might have in certain proficiencies.

I enjoy TROS' freedom. Whatever perculiarity of attack or defence you might conceive of is happily translated through the current Combat system. I'm wary of bonuses being arbitrality assigned to you just because you've trained with such-and-such. Nor that anyone who hasn't be precluded from certain styles of attack, or be intrinsically worse at a particular techinque. No matter how much I train under that waterfall, I'll never have that +1 bonus in aggressive stance like that guy what trained under Captain Swordy has.

I'd be happier with the meta approach to it - how a school's distinctive characteristics might be played in-game. The Savaxen masters emphasize group-based tactics, and aggressive sword & shield techniques. Whilst (can't remember appropriate country off-hand) another might favour a more indivualistic fighting style, concentrating on the use of subtle attacks, and a more teasing style inviting enemies into committing reckless strikes.

But has anyone thought of SAs?

I've considered using SAs as curses and such. Greedy player picks up the Daemon's discarded sword. He is now inflicted with anti-conscience for example, or the SA to repel people who love him. Acting against increases the negative modifier, etc...

But SAs for schools...? Maybe cheesy?

Training under an uber-ninja-master allows you the option of an SA which favours stealth tactics, but punishes you for the ooposite. The above Savaxen example rewards you for acting as part of a group, raiding the Picti coasts with your mates, wading through fat villagers through the use of heavy sword and shield. Just don't work well for rapier-duels in crowded streets.

You could see it as a developed mindset, a practiced way of dealing with combat. Acting against it would prove awkward and cumbersome. And, like any other SA, could be discarded in time.

It'd be great for NPCs anyway :) Gemmel's "Hundred" for example. "Star Wars'" Stormtroopers, a tribe united by purpose, etc...


Take care

Ashton wrote: [and I'm blanking on the German wrestling fectbuch that Talhoffer borrowed heavily from (i.e. stole wholeheartedly).
Does that help any?

Salamander wrote:

Ashton wrote: [and I'm blanking on the German wrestling fectbuch that Talhoffer borrowed heavily from (i.e. stole wholeheartedly).
Does that help any?

I believe that was Ott's work...

It's 2:34 AM so sue me if this is slightly off-topic here...
but I've been wondering about naginata's, the weapon-art thereof, the various schools and such... just wondering if that was going to be in TFOB.

The naginata is cleanly handled by the polearm profiency allready extant (is "extant" a word?). What the schools really are are interconnected sets of proficiencies. Thus the musashi school would teach more than just one and two swords--it would also cover anything else that musashi felt was an important part of martial training (such as the spear).

On top of that, I'm still trying to decide how much asia I want in TFOB, especially with the TROS Japan book coming out.

Jake

I just wanted to chime in with everyone who advocates minor numerical tweaks for Schools. I like the way it's handled in The Burning Wheel (which is remarkably similar to TROS, in the best possible way) you may get a bonus to Aggressive stance but a penalty to Defensive, maybe you are penalized for striking twice in one round. I guess i'd be happy with anything that gave the schools a little bit of personality that matters numerically as opposed to "this is what the school teaches, but you don't have to play it that way."

Thomas

Jake Norwood wrote: The naginata is cleanly handled by the polearm profiency allready extant (is "extant" a word?). What the schools really are are interconnected sets of proficiencies. Thus the musashi school would teach more than just one and two swords--it would also cover anything else that musashi felt was an important part of martial training (such as the spear).

On top of that, I'm still trying to decide how much asia I want in TFOB, especially with the TROS Japan book coming out.

Jake

wrote: uote>Jake Norwood wrote: The naginata is cleanly handled by the polearm profiency allready extant (is "extant" a word?).


BL> Your usage question has foolishly summoned the Pedant Demon from beyond space and time.
<

quot;The Pedant Demon]
Extant is a word. Further, "proficiency" and "already" are spelled as such.

I don't know how prevalent they were as a school/style in a medieval Western setting, but try not to forget the other weapons.

I'm sure there are at least a few knife fighting techniques. I have no clue about mass weapons, polearms, etc.

-Joshua

You just gotta have something about quarterstaves. I don't know diddley about weapon masters, but come up with someone if you can. :-)

Not to focus on just fencing, but I came across this website:

http://www.martinez-destreza.com/articles/spanish1.htm

THe site discusses the "Spanish" approach to fencing. My problem is, not being someone actually trained in fencing myself, I don't want to immediately trust something just because someone posted it on the internet.

However, if the site does have any validity, then information like this would be really useful to those of us lacking practical fighting experience. In particular, the site seems to boil down differences between schools that could be loosely translated to aspects such as: Italian-style schools favor "counter" style maneuvers while Spanish-style favors more of a "duck and weave" which is then followed up with a "thrust". Well, granted that's perhaps an oversimplifaction but what do more experienced fencers think?

*note, I'm not trying to promote any one style over another; simply I'm looking for ways to accurately describe the various styles. I can't remember the skill since I don't have the main book with me but for example there is a skill that allows players to observe and analyze the style used by other people. I'm looking to be able to provide information that is both meaningful tactically in a "gamist" sense and yet be able set a more distinctive and colorful scene as well.

I have a little pet peeve regarding supplements such as these.
A lot of times the people made with the supplement in question (fighing men in this case, I guess) becomes a lot more powerful than those made without the supplement.
This because the book is shock full of bonuses and little else.
So, could you keep TFOB-made and core TROS-made fighters balanced? Please? Having said that, I have full faith in that Jake & Co can do just that.

Sketches is a good idea. I have always liked clear, crisp pencil sketches, like the encumberance pics. Plenty of those, please!

The skillset is a good idea, as long as you avoid having dozens upon dozens of weird skills with only a single use.
I wonder however, how you would handle a character who has trained under two or more masters? Would he get three skillsets?

Mok-

good questions and points. SOmething to think on. Don't worry about kewl powerz, though. Cool options, maybe, cool ideas, cool color, cool new strategy, but nothing that will dwarf what exists. One player using TFOB stuff and one not using them won't neccessarily be on different pages.

Jake

Ashton wrote:

Jake Norwood wrote: So I'm working on designing some specific masters and the schools they represent. The Current project is converting what little we know of actual historical masters into a few key examples, and coming up with stats and info that is appropriate and as accurate as possible (which isn't much).

What I'm really doing here is putting out a request list for what you'd like to see (or not see) in a selection of fighting schools and their masters--both who and what.

Jake

Capo Ferro and Agrippa as competing rapier schools
George Silver (all about the saber, and a nice counterpoint to normal rapier)
Talhoffer
and I'm blanking on the German wrestling fectbuch that Talhoffer borrowed heavily from (i.e. stole wholeheartedly).
Does that help any?

That's pretty close to what I'm doing, actually...are you guys hacking into my computer?

Jake