Ron & All,

Has CD publishing been successful for anyone? I remember one company that promised to do several RPGs per different CDs, with supplemental material and programs included on them.... I thought they were going to do one with Sorcerer -- what happened with that Ron? I also notice that Archangel by Visionary Games is offered in triple threat: soft cover, cd, and pdf. A good way to expand your market?

Let me know if I got my info mixed up.

Thanks,
Nathan

Nathan,

Check out these two threads on this very forum.

this one

that one

And to answer your question, yes, a company did publish the PDF of Sorcerer on a CD. It was a total waste of time and energy.

Best,
Ron

[ This Message was edited by: Ron Edwards on 2001-11-08 18:15 ]

Thanks Ron,

Question for the general crowd -> I know the pros and cons of CD publishing, but I'd still love to see a "break even" project to get some indie rpg archives on CD and out there somewhere. I don't have any clue how much it is to press about 5000 CDs, but perhaps we let indie game designers do most of the work.

The CD would include an html directory of a ton of free indie rpg games, probably with a few demos and nifty software.

To get your rpg on the CD, you have to pay $25 for a single file and folder. To include any extra files, supplements, adventures, software, and so on, it is an extra $5 per file or some such... One time fee by the way...

That might break Jared, but the point is, us designers band together and rake enough cash together to get 5000 CDs pressed... From that point on, we each get maybe 100 apiece, but the rest are given away to Gencon or we work up a deal where some are included with a game mag like Games Unplugged or some such....

Would it work? Or would it be a dismal pointless failure? Would we get some more eyeballs our way?

Of course, I would love to hang on to a few just so I could always get bored of gaming and dig through it, pull out some of the funky ideas therein and do something different. It would also be really neat to pull out down the road and say, "Hey, this RPG, written in 2000, was way ahead of the curve."

Thanks,
Nathan

5000 CDs??

It staggers me. Why 5000? Can anyone explain to me why that quantity is proposed?

500 would seem more sensible.

Best,
Ron

Well, 5000... 500.. whatever...

Wouldn't the point be for it to get out there en mass somewhere?

I wouldn't mind having quite a few copies to pass on to people. We would not be selling them -- they would be great stuff to give to cons to give away as prize packages or to GMs or whatever. In retrospect, considering that there are really under 30 or so people that would be a part of this deal, 500 is probably more of a realistic number. Anyone got any numbers on that?

Or maybe someone has access to a big CD-RW tower and would be willing to burn some?

Anyway,

Thanks,
Nathan
nathanh@cameron.edu

Nathan,

I think you are over-estimating the customer base to an enormous degree. Marketing and promotion of role-playing games, especially specialty or avant-garde ones, is not like marketing shoes or sports equipment.

Flatly, if you give away CDs at conventions or to distributors or whoever, you are not going to sell any. Everyone who wants one will have one already. Such a device must be either promotion or product, not both.

I strongly suggest that if a CD/RPG is to be any good, it's going to be the full game with a ton of extras (music, images, animation, etc) that take a lot more effort than just hitting the button on the burner (using the CD as a big floppy). If it's going to be that much effort, then it should be a product, not a promo device.

Big-ass companies LOSE money on promotion. That's what they do. It's all in hopes that sales will be in a projected range. Conversely, small and feisty companies MAKE money on promotion, by letting the product be as easy and quick to get as the promo-device itself.

If you're a small-guy and you think like a big-guy, you'll be losing money and selling vapor. There's a lot of that sort of thing out there in RPG-land, and I can't see any reason at all to add to it.

Best,
Ron

I don't want to be disrespectful, but Ron, do you even read these posts?

If you had read my posts, you would have seen that I said up front that these would be for promotion. Think about it - everyone takes their "complete" rpgs in text, html, PDF or whatever, we chunk them on to one CD. We divvy up content in folders. We all chip in together and pay for the about 500 or more to be made. We each get a slice of those to use to give away -- or alternately, we get a slice but a larger slice goes to another organization. That org then gives them away at cons and so on.

This would not make any money -- the point would be to have a nifty cd containing a ton of cool indie games that I could keep for a long time -- and to perhaps get some of these games out there. I am not sure if most gamers would explore the CD if they got it at a con, but they might.

In other words, in fifteen years, I could whip out this CD, put it into my old Mac, and get a laugh reading Pumpkintown, or The Pool, or whatever else is thrown on there. Or, I could even play them again.

Do you understand now?

Thanks man,
Nathan

Well Nathan, I've understood you throughout. My response is that the effort spent on promotion of this kind is misplaced.

It's misplaced because what people GET on that CD is not promotion, but product.

Now, I could be wrong. Like you, I would LOVE a garage-compilation of a ton of great games, on a CD. I've been trying to conceive of a viable model for this for over two years; I've even participated in what turned out to be a failed attempt at such a thing.

More ideas on how it might work would be great to hear about. However, the idea of zipping such a thing out there as promotion seems to me to be entirely self-defeating.

Best,
Ron

Whoops, double-posted.

RE

[ This Message was edited by: Ron Edwards on 2001-11-13 11:29 ]

Without packaging (Just CD's with printing on the disc), this could be quite cheap... You could fit several games on a disc for about the same price as publishing one hard copy game.

The thing I wonder about is: Would a person or small game publisher get any real additional promotion or recognition of their game by having it on such a CD? Anyone with a CD-ROM should realistically have internet access, which means they could just download the game whenever they would want to. And with either format, they still need to print out their own hardcopy.

And if this were a 'for sale' product, why would anyone pay for a CD of indie games if they were the same as the free internet versions?

And if one were to solely publish on CD, you'd have an uphill battle promoting to a market / industry that has already decided that CD isn't the way to go.

Seems to me that the answer is no, and they wouldn't; gamers think that CD's are OK for reference (Best of Dragon), but not for rules.

Ah, what the heck, I've got a few minutes to burn at the end of the day...

I think the real question here is: How do you get some promotion for your indie RPG? All this talk of CD's and print runs really boils down to: How do I get people to look at my game?

I can think of several ways that I've seen work:
1) Photocopies given away at your local game store.
2) Photocopies given away at GenCon.
3) Run demos of your game at the LGS or a Con.
4) Before you go to the Con, print up a newsletter to give away to people who are interested, or eye-catching flyers to post about your demos or freebies.

Like anything, you need to think globally, but act locally.

And all of these are easy to accomplish; small amount of money, and no massive organisation of designers is needed.

Here in WI, it seems that we've begun 'network playtesting' as well... Just over a week ago, I drove to Milw. to play unheilig's Primeval, and Mike Holmes' Universalis. Then a couple days later I played my Two Page Action Movie RPG with my new group (YAYYY!!!). The night after, I played Four Colors al Fresco with the group that designed it (I will post about the 2nd FCaF session this Weds).

Like Ron said in the last post (I think). Network, network, network. This is a very human hobby. It's very basis is social. It's a lot easier to spread the word using the word, than it is to throw money at it...

'Alternative CD-anything' is usually a bad idea because the format is always adapted inefficiently or improperly. It's often a victim of the false notion that technology will fill the consumer's gap of doubt. Will it work the same? Will it be as good?

That said, I think that Nathan's idea is essentially sound. However, it would benefit all parties best (consumer and publisher) if the games were 'quick-play' versions. Otherwise we are undermining the goals of both. Here's how.

First: By limiting participation to quick-play versions we can accomplish the number one goal (for both parties) which is to include enough information to get people

playing

value

I agree, Jeff.

Maybe we divide our content up. The Wild, for example, is going to be sold online in its next incarnation, with art and what not. But, I do plan on keeping some sort of "Preview" or "Free" version out there. (Actually, from the way Ron has been talking, I may not even do that.)

But, there are some projects I have worked on or am working on that I will never sell but would love to see on a CD. For example, sk8er, FERpg, and probably tidbits of adventures and systems I have done. I think that a ton of us here on the forums have those sort of things (*ahem* Memento-Mori *cough*). It would be great to make a lasting record of all of that creativity....

So the CD would only contain - FREE games OR limited versions of commercial games. It's purpose would to be a repository of creative ideas for gamers everywhere AND to promote indie rpgs.... (Obviously, if someone checks out ... say sk8er, they would probably log onto my website and then possibly see The Wild... which would be one of the points...)

Does this sound better? Ron, what do you think about that more narrow idea?

Thanks,
Nathan

Just to throw another idea in here, one that just popped into me noggin...

Why not do a collective BOOK instead? Doing a softcover wouldn't cost that much more than CD, and then you'd have the printed product in your hand. Which is what everyone wants in the end anyways.

This would not only give you the promotional item you desire at a reasonable cost, but by splitting up the cost and print run, each designer would get X amount to distribute however they want. They could be given away, or sold, and even gotten to stores by direct sales, if not via 3T distribution.

I think a project like this has a chance of getting into stores as well.

20 GAMES FOR $20! (suggested retail price, of course. :smile: ) I think the average gamer would plunk down $20 if there were only 2-3 games they were interested in.

Sean,

This idea has been kicking around for a while, and at least two serious attempts to organize cropped up over the last year.

I like the idea ... a little bit. It has exactly the same problem as with the CD, which is that one doesn't promote a product by giving the product away.

Which would mean one of two things. (1) The games in the book would have to be "half-baked" or "lite" versions of the games-to-come, and many people would not buy the book because they don't want "incomplete" games. (2) The games in the book ARE done, just short, and that's that.

I like #2 pretty well.

Then the next problem crops up. Books cost money to print. Who does it? Even worse, who owns the games? And how are the creators actually paid? It's all well and good to say, "Oh, we'll all chip in," and "You publish it, but we'll, like, own our own stuff," and that sort of thing. In practice, that disintegrates fast.

So is payment done by royalties? Some sort of joint company? Who's in charge? Etc, etc.

Anyway, if some solution at that level happens, I'd love to see such a thing.

Best,
Ron

That is a HUGE point, Ron.

If this is a FOR-PROFIT deal, how do we divvy it up? I say, if we do it, profit should go to a charity or organization or something. We might be able to check with a company out there and see if they would be willing to be the sort of go to people in charge of the nitty gritty. Or maybe, an indie company like Key20 or something would be interested in handling the business stuff - as long as we pay for the print run...

I'm not sure yet.... Let's keep shooting ideas about this.

And to add : a CD to me, while less "lovely" to a gamer, reduces a ton of the problems a book has. I would be willing to compile the games on to a test cd, make sure it is windows and mac compatible, and even run an anti-virus check on it.

But for a book, do we not have art? Do we give up specific pages to each contributer and let them design their section layout wise? What sort of book?

I could see this as a thicker book in the quality of "Kobolds Ate My Baby!". But, we could do more as well....

Anyway.. more ideas...

Thanks,
Nathan

[ This Message was edited by: Nathan on 2001-11-13 13:28 ]

The only way I could see a compliation like that happening is if someone buys the other games outright.

"Hey, Ron, I'll give you $500 for Elfs."
"Jared, I'll give you $600 for InSpectres."

or whatever and whoever and for how much ever.

I don't see this happening since no one would pay the prices the creator/owners would want for the outright purchase of their game.

Best way I can think of is if a bunch of designers were hanging out together and after too many wiskey sours they each fess up that they each have a game idea that they like, but is too small or too narrow in appeal to even bother trying to publish. The one of them can suggest they each write up their games and he'll buy 'em off of them and publish it, with detailed info on each of them and their other project/companies.

The idea is not to promote the game in question but to promote the author. That game is given away, more or less, as advertising.

This'll mean that if the author decide they want to publish the game themselves after all, they'd have to buy it back or else just stop worrying about that game.

That is the rub, isn't it? Selling it outright for peanuts. Well, it's more money that giving it away for free on your webpage.

This is more easily solved than you think... Bands do this all the time, putting together compilation CD's. Hell, there are even people who charge bands money to be on a CD, and then all the band gets is a few copies. And there have been gaming fanzines that use this collective approach as well.

Games: each person has x amount of pages to fill, for x amount of dollars, which gives each person an equal share of the books printed. You retain your copyright to your game. It's a one-time printing, all parties agree to that ahead of time. Any reprintings require a new agreement. That way if some company comes along as says "Jared, we'll give you $500 to write up a bigger version of InSpectres for SuperX Games", he's free to do so. Each designer is responsible for their own art.

Promotion or for-sale: Up to each designer. If you want to make your money back, sell them. If you want to give them away, do so. If you make a profit, yippee, if you don't, at least you didn't spend the entire amount of $$$.

I think the games should be "full versions".

The idea is not to promote the game in question but to promote the author. That game is given away, more or less, as advertising. This'll mean that if the author decide they want to publish the game themselves after all, they'd have to buy it back or else just stop worrying about that game. That is the rub, isn't it? Selling it outright for peanuts. Well, it's more money that giving it away for free on your webpage.

Thanks, Laurel.

I agree with the negatives against this sort of project. Certainly, if we were to do something like this, it would require some legalities to be put in place. I also think in the spirit of it - it could not be a money making deal. For one, I don't think it could make any money. I don't know if I would buy such a collection of indie games if I saw it on a shelf (actually, I probably would... *sigh*).

A similar example might be shareware computer software. I still remember how good it was to open up the latest issue of MacAddict and pull out a CD containing the latest shareware, demos, and nifties. Occasionally, free versions of software were given away. Mostly, there was a smattering of shareware work, combined with limited editions and demos of commercial products. This was helpful because some of the software would take a while to download on a 56k modem back then.

Of course, indie rpgs don't face a similar bar. They are quick to download on most any modem. Even if the file is a large PDF, it rarely weighs in more than 2.5 MB. So in the end, the idea of a "shareware" CD of indie games may be shot to hell.

Thanks,
Nathan

I still like the CD version.
Just no obnoxious advertising and you will have cleared a gigantic hurdle. As mentioned previously, a link to a webpage is understated and quite enough.

It's portable and can be given away easily at any convention or game shop (if you're savvy enough). This format is perfect for pure promotion. Cheap to produce, robust on info and flashy on presentation. The point is not to convince every gamer that role-play games on CD are just as good as hardcopy; the point is to let them know that our games are good.

It's a good idea.
So, watcha' wanna' do now?

J

Just so we know about pricing... Here is one of the best price quotes I have found with just some quick doodaddling. There are plenty of other places, and they offer other benefits or whatever. I even considered those Business Card CDs, which would be pretty sauve...

---------------------
1000 CD-ROMs $710.00 ($0.71 per disc)
Paper envelope w/ window $130.00 ($0.13 per disc)

TOTAL $840.00 ($0.84 per disc)
----------------------

Of course, the more you want, the cheaper it is. I think it gets down to .45-.53 per CD in areas like 10,000... What would we do with 10,000 cds? I could probably give away 1,000 if I just handed them out constantly.. but 10,000? Wow...

Still, $840 is not bad with a little art on the CD and the nice paper envelope w/ window. If we got 10 indie game designers to go in together on this, it would roughly be $84 apiece to pay for it. Obviously, if we get 20 folks to contribute to it and fill out the CD a bit more, it is more around $42.

But, 20 game designers mean each game designer gets 50 CDs sent to them... 10 game designers get 100 CDs apiece...

What sounds good out there?

Obviously, the amount of material we could include on the CD could be staggering. HTML, images, PDF, text, and music files alone would be very nice. The disc would be both Mac and PC compatible (therefore, LINUX too.. I suppose). I think it would be best to organize games in a "genre" or "category" approach - "Fantasy", "Weird", "Weirder", or whatever. As well, I would throw in some articles and reviews (with permission from the authors...)...

Well, I need more feedback..

Thanks,
Nathan

in terms of putting everything together, I'd guess the CD would end up being a website-on-a-disc (as well as being simply browsable)

I'd suggest putting up the lighter content (ie, the HTML, not the binaries) somewhere where Forge members could test the pages on a variety of browsers and systems

using stylesheets would mean printing HTML files wouldn't be such a bad idea, if that's what a user wanted to do (for an example have a look at an article from A List Apart with "Miracle Print")

of course, there are a variety of web design concerns; I'd suggest getting a team/leader/editor behind that aspect of things

I think an important factor that has yet to be brought up is this. There are a lot of "free" RPGs out that that were never created with the intent to make money. If I'm not mistaken, Jared hasn't (nor does he plan to) sold a simgle one of his games.

I think handing out a free CD at CONs would give some recognition to some games that will never see print. I never intend to publish my cat game (partly because Wick beat me to it), but it sure brightens my day when I get an email from someone who played it and liked it.

Not only would the CD give recognition to not-for-sale games, but it would be a good way to make people aware of games that "will" be for sale by directing people to the game designer's web site.

The whole idea, of course, hinges on people being willing to give their games away for free which I know Ron is against.

Does this sound more reasonable?

Ok Ron, now you can tell me how misguided I am :smile:

,Matt

After Post comment
Damn, how did I miss the whole second page of posts?

[ This Message was edited by: Eloran on 2001-11-17 12:38 ]

Hey Matt,

If I'm not mistaken, Jared hasn't (nor does he plan to) sold a single one of his games.

Schism is for sale. I think he has plans for InSpectres and OctaNe as well.

I think handing out a free CD at CONs would give some recognition to some games that will never see print.

Didn't Scott say he generated exactly one email from the 100 or so copies of WYRD he gave away at GenCon? And that was a great print ashcan. I have to assume a CD would generate even less interest. Don't you think?

I'd gladly give away copies of The World, the Flesh, and the Devil in pamphlet form. But I think it would get entirely lost in the shuffle on a CD.

Paul

Matt,

I believe you are arguing against a constructed person in your own mind, who happens not to exist.

I have no objection whatsoever to giving games away for free. Hell, we gave away hundreds of them at GenCon off the Adept Press booth. Sorcerer began on the shareware model.

A compilation of such games - whether Soap, or InSpectres, or who knows what other fantastic free games - on CD or otherwise would be a great boon to role-playing culture.

Please make sure you know other people's positions before swinging into assault mode.

Best,
Ron

Sorry Ron, I just recall hearing you say (or hearing second hand) that Jared shouldn't "give" his games away. If you didn't say that, or if that was an issolated case, please forgive me - no offence intended.

Good thing I was weraing my chocolate flavored shoes today. The taste ain't so bad :smile:

And Paul,
Moose may have only gotten one email, but that's one email he wouldn't have received otherwise. We only had 50 copies of the ashcan to had out anyway. Plus, we have no idea how many of the people who picked up an ashcan went to his web site to look at his other games. Besides, I don't think Wyrd is the best example of the benifits here. WYrd is unconventional to say the least and I can see a lot of people not getting it. Put 50 games on a CD and everyone is bound to find at least one game they like.

,Matt