Hello,

I just wanted to send my greetings to the forum, as I just joined. :)

I am a big fan of HeroQuest (and was of Hero Wars before it) and am just about to start off on a December to January HeroQuest campaign.

In the past I have stuck mostly with playing BD&D, 2nd edition D&D, then d20 with small forays into Exalted, Mage, and GURPS.

When Hero Wars came out I was pretty excited about it but I had difficulty getting my group into it as they were pretty staunch D&Ders. I have since moved and acquired an entirely different group who seem pretty receptive to the idea of the game. The improved organization of HeroQuest and the very fact that there is a Hero's Book (which one player is holding onto at the moment) has definitely helped in this. However, they are fairly attached to the current Arcana Unearthed campaign we are running and, rather then mess with a good thing, I decided to run a mini-campaign for those people who are going to remain in town (plus a few other gamers whose groups will be absent).

Currently, with two people having created characters, it looks like I am going to be running an Esrolian campaign.

The two players have made a Puma Person Hunter Practioner of the Puma Ancestor Spirit Tradition (though I have to admit some annoyance over the scant details about the Tradition in the book, I plan on writing up a pretty comprehensive Tradition and Practice description) who grew up in Esrolia itself and a rather wimpy and young Esrolian Scholar who after many years writing and creating his own myths about a hero he discovered he had the ability to inadvertantly summon said hero to defend him.

I particularly like the latter character as it is a good example of the flexibility of the system. By establishing the mythic hero as a sidekick and the ability to summon him as the Hope Mythic Hero Shows Up relationship (which will of course go against the standard magical resistance of 14, with levels of victory determining how long it takes for him to show). Of course this is also the sort of unique character that you would see in fiction but would rarely, if ever, see in D&D. I am looking forward to the other player's ideas. Hopefully they will be just as creative as this one.

My only issue is that it seems that if the other makes equally creative and unique characters that I will have trouble working with their place in society. The Puma Person already is an outsider by virtue of being a Puma Person, the Scholar is hardly a typical Esrolian male, and from initial information I have gotten from a third player, I doubt that she will be playing a character that will fit into the setting that well either. I had thought that perhaps they could all be members of a hero band that is associated with one of the different Esrolian factions but that feels like a cop-out for some reason.

Just as an aside this is what she stated was the basis of her character (she doesn't know anything about the setting so she put it on its most basic level):
"the most, most basic level is that she's been raised all her life with a certain world view, a set of values and morals, except things have been happening that make her question what she's been told. she then is starting to feel conflict: what is really right and true, or is there any such thing? it's just by circumstance that she's a killer. she doesn't have to be one, but it certainly makes for very dramatic tension. :)"

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could integrate this sort of idea into the setting?

I have two ideas of my own that I have suggested to her:

The first idea I have is that she was a troll who lost her darkness rune for whatever reason and is having to grapple with her trollish impulses vs. the fact that she isn't really a troll anymore.

The other was that she was from some brutal mountain tribe, perhaps as some sort of champion or warrior and is sent after her brother after he breaks a taboo. He flees into Esrolia and she is sent to kill him and bring back his head so the gods/spirits do not get so angry that they curse the entire family. She encounters Esrolian culture and is thrown into culture shock because of its immense differences, and from there she can explore the development of her character in play.

So thats about it.

Any thoughts, ideas, or suggestions?


Thanks,
Jesse Dean

Why not make her an Esrolian? It's a pretty static culture with everyone in their place so plenty of reasons for someone wanting a change. You could then establish a reason for her to know the scholar which ties them together - perhaps they are brother and sister and she has killed another woman for abusing him. Throw in a Puma person who witnessed it and doesn't understand why it's a problem and you've got a load of plots going before you define NPC motivations.

I could do that but part of her character concept is that she is an outsider to the society which the main campaign is involved with and that, for some reason or another, she considers herself to be less then human. Either because the Esrolians consider her subhuman or she has some reason from her own culture to see herself as subhuman.

I'm not sure that I see the problem. You have three nifty characters, all outside of the "norms" of the local society. The players seem to be telling you that this is the sort of game that they want to play. You've got tons of interesting things to explore in terms of cultural alientation and the like.

So what's the problem? You're worried about trying to figure out "their place in society"? They're outsiders.

Here's your first scenario. Some Esrolian high muckety-muck woman has fallen for the two male PCs. If the female PC isn't troubled by this (and as they may represent her only potential mates, maybe she should), then the NPC sees her as competition anyhow.

Make up a ralationship map around the Esrolian woman involving her family and the people who respect her and you're off and running. Throw in a mysterrios theft just to add pressure to the situation.

Mike

doubtofbuddha wrote: I could do that but part of her character concept is that she is an outsider to the society which the main campaign is involved with and that, for some reason or another, she considers herself to be less then human. Either because the Esrolians consider her subhuman or she has some reason from her own culture to see herself as subhuman.

Actually, on further character development (and the remaining players making their characters) there isn't really a problem. This is what I ended up doing:

I figured that since this was Esrolia that making it so the characters were all part of a particular faction would be a convenient way for them to work together. Assuming we could come up with good reasons for them to work with/for the same faction.

The Lunarized Camarian Petty Noble, Initiate of Natha who has come to Esrolia in order to pave the way for imperial expansion. He is now serving as sort of a diplomatic lisason with important members of the Red Earth faction.

The Puma Person Hunter, Practioner of the Bush Voice Practice of the Puma Person Ancestor Tradition has some human lineage and has come to find and interact with her human family. Which happens to be part of the Red Earth Faction.

The Makorling (an Orlanthi culture native to the Skyreach Mountains known for its xenophobia and llama herding.) Warrior devotee of Barbeester Gor, and member of the Bloody Virgins of Barbeester Gor. She was sent into the Esrolian civilization to find and kill someone who broke a taboo and now she can't go back. the Queen who leads the Red Earth Faction saved her life and so she is bound by oath to her.

The Esrolian Foot Soldier Initiate of Vinga the SpearThrower. She was formerly one of the guards of the High Queen but lost the job after she got caught seducing the son of the High Queen. She wants to become a Queen and has figured the Red Earth Faction could be her ticket to power. She has a strong, eunuch sidekick who is a master of a two sword fighting style.

The Esrolian Scholar and communal worshipper of the Earth Pantheon. He mysteriously acquired the ability to summon a mythic hero to defend himself and has acquired the Queen in charge of the Red Earth Faction as his patron. I statted out the mythic hero as a sidekick.

So I have a common thread tying them together and a way to have them involved with the events at large happening in the setting. :)

Though I really doubt I am going to follow the official time line in any way, shape or form.

Jesse D.

I figured that since this was Esrolia that making it so the characters were all part of a particular faction would be a convenient way for them to work together.

Well, if you have the techniques then I would be more than willing to hear them...


To be quite honest I am kind of stumbling on coming up with a scenario as I want to avoid the whole "d20 gamist experience"

I think I already manage to avoid some of the pitfalls of running d20 games fairly well, but I would really like to take it to the next level.


So any suggestions you might have on Glorantha-specific scenario creation would be nice.

I GM on Sunday.

doubtofbuddha wrote: I think I already manage to avoid some of the pitfalls of running d20 games fairly well, but I would really like to take it to the next level.


So any suggestions you might have on Glorantha-specific scenario creation would be nice.

Hey, Buddha's Doubt -

I'm in a game that's switching from d20 to HQ too. I'd recommend coming up with a list of challenges and NPCs that are the kinds of things you would normally create a D&D type adventure out of, and then NOT finish creating the adventure. In other words: you get your band of drunken Heortling savages with a leader who wants to bind some sort of spirit, you get a local healer with an illness she can't cure herself, maybe you even get a tower in the local swamp full of ducks and a necromancer - but you don't necessarily map it, although you can, but rather think of the 'cool encounters' you would want to have if they went to the tower, etc.

Once you've got about a half-dozen groups of these interesting people, conflicts, places, and challenges, you figure out roughly what links them into each other. Then you figure out what links your PCs into them, as a group or as separate individuals.

Then you just present them with a striking situation, let them act, and fill in the blanks as you go.

That's how I approach it anyway - hope this was vaguely useful. The point is that you prepare the fun stuff, the cool stuff, that normally forms the skeleton of a 'finished adventure' in d20 terms, and then you let the players finish the adventure for you in play.

Right, what Sean is saying. Basically, don't have a plot. Just have "stuff."

From the game Sorcerer, we get a concept called the relationship map, and another the bang. A relationship map is just an interesting bunch of characters who are strongly related to each other (I won't go into specifics, but the stronger the better). These NPCs all have thieir own agendas and motives that include needing the PCs for things. The interesting thing is that different parts of he map can grab different PCs. So they don't have to be working together (and can even be at cross purposes). This usually assumes that you'll be using another technique called scene framing.

Scene framing involves, essentially, getting away from asking the players "what do you do next?" and instead just cutting to conflcits. In that way you keep everybody interested in the action, even those who don't happen to be in the scene at the time. Which brings us to bangs. A bang is an event that happens to a PC that has two qualities. First, it forces the PC to address some issue. Second, and of critical importance, it doesn't force any particular decision on the player's part. Meaning that the player has to make a meaningful decision, but it's all theirs to make.

Using the relationship map, early Bangs are often simply the characters of the map coming to the PCs and enlisting their aid in some fashion. PC interation occurs nearly inevitably when the PCs end up in the same scenes with each other, having been recruited by multiple members of the same map.

Another technique from Sorcerer is the Kicker. This is some player defined event, sort of a bang itself, that starts the character in motion. Some situation that they find themselves in that they have to respond to in some way. Has all the qualities of a bang, but is chosen by the player. The real advantage of a Kicker is that you can be assured that the player will be interested in playing out the events spawned by it (since they chose it). If you do Kickers, then the relationship map can often be designed in part from people that are implied or described directly in the Kicker. So you mix up all the kickers, basically, and you get a crossroad of connections that will involve all the PCs in each other's stories.

One of the cool things about how this works is that the PCs don't have to like each other, and might even go so far as to kill each other (people often gasp at this point). As long as it's the characters competing, and not the players, it all works fine.

Anyhow, these are just the basics. Want to try it out in more detail?

Mike

Hmm.....

Yes, that is pretty interesting and I would definitely be interested in trying it out in more detail. I have already been using something similar to relationship maps, though its been in a much more primitive format.

The main part of what you described that I am having diffuclty accepting is the idea of scene framing. By going straight to the conflict (rather than letting players don't you cut out some level of player choice and control?

Also, using that method of getting characters to interact with each other how do you ensure that they continue to interact with each other? It would be kind of contrived if every adventure the PCs ended up in the same situations despite being associated with a variety of different individuals.

doubtofbuddha wrote: Yes, that is pretty interesting and I would definitely be interested in trying it out in more detail. I have already been using something similar to relationship maps, though its been in a much more primitive format.

The main part of what you described that I am having diffuclty accepting is the idea of scene framing. By going straight to the conflict (rather than letting players don't you cut out some level of player choice and control?

Also, using that method of getting characters to interact with each other how do you ensure that they continue to interact with each other? It would be kind of contrived if every adventure the PCs ended up in the same situations despite being associated with a variety of different individuals.

Hmmm..... actually I think you explained things pretty well.

I just need to decide now how to seperate the players from their alligence to the faction. ;)

Brass tacks?

doubtofbuddha wrote: Hmmm..... actually I think you explained things pretty well.

I just need to decide now how to seperate the players from their alligence to the faction. ;)

Brass tacks?

Ah, fair enough....


Actually what I have so far is a collection of players, their characters, a setting and a general desire to give them a fun experience within the context of the camapign.

I am still trying to figure out what exactly I want to do with the campaign that would be able to involve all of the players and allow them work towards each of their personal goals.

I do think that the campaign should probably center at least in part, around the attempts by the Red Earth faction attempting to annex Esrolia. I am not planning on following the timeline wherein the Red Moon is destroyed by Argath (or whatever his name is) so I feel no computations about having the results of the campaign go off in a different direction from Glorantha "canon."

The Esrolain Foot Soldier and Lunarize Carmanian Petty Noble both want power. He wants to achieve it by bringing the dominion of the Lunar Empire to Esrolia and she wants to achieve it by finding a way to become a queen of the nation.

The Esrolian Scholar and the Puma Person Hunter both have goals that are easy to manage within the context of the game, as they are simplistic and easy to tack on to other things that are going on. The Scholar wishes simply to write and experience adventures which he can turn into stores. The Hunter just wishes to learn more about Esrolia and her family.

The foreign Warrior and Devotee of Babeester Gor is even easier as her goals are very self-centered. She wishes to achieve a deeper understanding of herself and her relationship with society. To determine if, despite what she was taught, she really exists as a human being and if the ways of her home culture were truly the "correct" way to do things. Is everything she was taught as truth wrong and if so does that make her existence a lie?

So basically I need to do something that allows the first two to work towards their grand goals while the latter three still get oppurtunities to interact with their more personal goals.

Jesse D.

Mike,

Fan-fucking-tastic post (your 2nd post up from this one)

Thanks for the education! I like the clarity and no-nonsense description of all the cool stuff in Sorcerer. I shall be referring my players to this thread (and keeping it on a list of favourites).

Cheers
Rusty

doubtofbuddha wrote: I do think that the campaign should probably center at least in part, around the attempts by the Red Earth faction attempting to annex Esrolia. I am not planning on following the timeline wherein the Red Moon is destroyed by Argath (or whatever his name is) so I feel no computations about having the results of the campaign go off in a different direction from Glorantha "canon."

I will post a more in-depth reply later, but I just want to note that you got the sex of several of them mixed up. :)

The Lunarized Carmanian Petty Noble is male, the Esrolian Foot Soldier (an Initiate of Vinga) is female. :)

Oh yeah, and when I said Red Earth Faction, I meant the Lunar Empire. The Red Earth Faction is the local group helping them out.

I have also only seen Casablanca once and never saw To Have or Have Not so I doubt any who's who guesses would be even close. Unless I cheated and looked at the IMDB. ;)

Otherwise it looks most interesting and definitely serves as an excellent base (and a great example).


I will post more later.

The Esrolain Foot Soldier and Lunarize Carmanian Petty Noble both want power. He wants to achieve it by bringing the dominion of the Lunar Empire to Esrolia and she wants to achieve it by finding a way to become a queen of the nation.

Ahh..... okay, I am just about to start working on my revising and reworking of your sample. I will post it when I am done.

The Lunars aren't invading but there has been rumors of troop build-up in the Abandoned Lands.

Also I think it would be more appropriate for people to flee for Werenelia than for Elsuvar, mostly because that land is already under the "control" of the Lunars.

As for religions....

The Lunarized Carmanian Petty Noble is an Initiate of Natha. He isn't particularly devout though, and I imagine he mostly became one as a means to an end (aka gaining position with the Lunars so he can gain his own territory to rule eventually).

The Esrolian Foot Soldier is an Initiate of Vinga's Spearthrower aspect. Mostly because I don't have Storm Tribe yet. The player is entirely new to role-playing, and she picked it because she really liked the description of Vinga.

The Calandran Devotee of Babeester Gor has a pretty strong relationship with her deity, mostly focused on her growing realization that her goddess and way of life isn't the truth.

The Puma Person is a practioner of the Bush Voice practice of the Puma People Ancestor's tradition. Next to nothing has been written up on it, but I plan on building on it..

The Esrolian Scholar is a common worshipper of the native religion and has no plans on developing anything beyond his native abilities. He has some ideas about myth-magic, and starting to develop his abilities to bring about characters from his own personal myth into the real world (like the myth hero he does now) and eventually changing and altering real world myths. So basically we will be developing mostly talents and personal magical abilities and he looks at religion more from a scholarly position than a religious position.

Jesse Dean

Premise: The Lunar Empire has been steadily mobilizing troops in preperation for the eventual acquisition of Esrolia. Not only will this provide for an expansion of the Lunar Way, but it will allow them to gain access to the rich southern ports of Esrolia, and the jewel of the southern coast, Nochet.

Cut to Rhigos, second largest city of Esrolia, and one of the strongest centers of Lunar influence thanks to the the political power of the Red Earth faction. Refugees have been steadily moving into here from all parts of Esrolia, but especially from regions along the Building Wall, they seek to escape the potential conquest of the Lunar Empire. While many people have stuck to their tribal lands in the face of the potential conquest, others value things such as family, life, and liberty far more than the lands of their ancestors. They seek safety in Wenelia, a homeland of Orlanthi who, while not matriarchal, at least Orlandthi.

Unfortunately for these refugees, the Red Earth faction has enough authority in the city to influence to enable the banning sea travel to prevent a mass exodus. The control is far from complete, however, as a number of the local Queens are members of the Warm Earth faction. While not completely opposed to the Lunar Empire, they are cautious of it, and resist the words of the Red Earth, for now...

Many people are still trying to leave and the price for smuggling them out is astronomical.

Relationship Map

Priestess Naera - a Red Faction intelligence person in this area, in charge of enforcing the travel ban. She's a priestess of Ernalda, in her She Who Waits, Lunarized form. Also, she’s a delagator, not a doer.
Esrolian 17 (Esrolian Customs, Esrolian Geography, Find Cooperative Solution, Speak Esrolian, Urban Survival, Fear Dragons, Respectful of Ancestors, Loyal to Family, Member of Red Earth Temple of She Who Waits)
Priest 17 (Pray for Hours, Charismatic Presence 18, Know Earth Pantheon Myths, Worship Earth Pantheon, Lead Sacrifice, Mythology of Ernalda 20, Orate, Pious, Persuade 21, Proud, Sedenyic Philosophy 4w, Strong Willed 20, Soul Vision 20, Umerciful to Enemies 2w)
Abilities: Conceal Motives 5w, Command Followers 17, Influence Pavel 19, Lie 15, Political Savvy 1w, Rhigos Knowledge 19, Understand Trends 20, Speak New Pelorian 17
Personality: Delegator 14
Equipment: Eye of the Red Moon 15
Relationships: Devotee of She Who Waits (Ernalda The Queen subcult) 5w, Influential in Local Politics 10w, Loyal to Lunar Empire 17
Magic*: Earth Queen 20 (Command Earth Animal, Command Earth Daimon, Dismiss Earth Elemental, Exorcise Earth Spirit, Enchant Copper ritual, Summon [Earth Daimon] +3), Find Another Way 17 (Calm Anger +3, Create Ring, Rally Women, Shame Husband, Stop Argument +2, Think of the Children), Earth Mysteries 20 (Insert Feats Here)
* Concentrated Magic. Subject to the Lunar Cycle.
Followers: 3 Initiates of She Who Waits (Ernalda the Queen subcult) 17; Pavel, Lover and Bodyguard (Warrior 17; Spear and Shield Fighting 5w, Scan For Danger 18, Love Naera 15; has a spear, medium armor and a shield giving him a +3/+4)

Queen Rahal – Local ruler, the Queen is walking a thin line between maintaining her independence and personal beliefs in the old ways, and placating the Red Faction members who are starting to spread their influence throughout the area. She most wants anything that will secure her power base. Past that, she would prefer a return to the old ways. She’s just not too willing to risk the first for the second. A nominal member of the Warm Earth faction.
Esrolian 17 (Esrolian Customs 5w, Esrolian Geography, Find Cooperative Solution, Speak Esrolian 20, Urban Survival, Peaceful, Fear Dragons, Respectful of Ancestors, Rules over Family, Member of Esrolian Temple of Orenddanna the Queen)
Tribal Queen (Petty Noble) 17 (Bluster, Debate 15w, Dueling, Exert Authority 19, Grooming 1w, Identify Social Status 19, Look Imposing 20, Politics 10w, Protocool 19, Ride, Sing, See Comprimise, Aristocratic, Elistist, Court Contacts, Wealth 10w2)
Initiate of Orendanna the Queen 17 (Ernalda the Queen subcult) (Initiate, Just, Know Earth Pantheon Myths, Worship Earth Pantheon, Commanding Presence 1w, Meaningful Glare, Mythology of Ernalda, Orate 5w, Persuade 20, Proud, Strong Willed, Unmerciful to Enemies, Soul Vision)
Abilities: Command Followers 20, Dagger Fighting 15, Know Rhigos 17, Rule City 5w, Sense Deception 18, Speak Heortling 17, Speak Calandran 17, Speak Esvulari 15, Speak New Pelorian 13, Understand Consequences 18
Personality Traits: Cautious 20
Relationships: Queen of Rhigos 20, Member of Warm Earth Faction 14
Magic: Earth Queen 17, Find Another Way 18, Leadership 20
Equipment: Ancestral Amulet of the Queen of Rhigos 2w, Extravagent Clothes (+4) 15
Followers: 3 Servant 17, 6 Bodyguards 17


Leera - Inn/Tavern owner. Leera’s is where deals are made to get people out of Esrolia to Wenelia and other places. Leera just wants to be left alone to make a profit. As such, she doesn't participate in these dealings, despite them happening on her property. She has, recently "aquired" two passes allowing travel from Rhigos.
Esrolian 17 (Esrolian Customs 19, Esrolian Geography, Find Cooperative Solution, Speak Esrolian, Urban Survival 20, Fear Dragons, Respectful of Ancestors, Loves Family, Member of Temple of Imarja and Our Good Friends)
Innkeeper 17 (Bartend 2w, Bargain 19, Clean Inn 20, Cook Food, Cudgel Fighting 18, Estimate Market Value, Know Customers 20, Know Rhigos, Manage Inn Staff 2w, Persuasive)
Worship Imarja 17 (Esrolian History, Mythology of Imarja, Worship Imarja, Feminine, Practical Sensible; Talents: First Aid Self, Listen to Ancestor, Stay Awake, Stay Sober; Feats: Cook Tasty Food, Look Good)
Abilities: Duck Behind Cover 15, Calm Drunk 17, Good Senses 16, Know Rhigos 20, Pretty 15, Speak Esvulari 16, Throw Daggers 17
Personality: Attentive 14, Good Listener 17
Equipment: Imarja's Blessed Everful Flagon 16, Throwing Daggers (+1)
Relationships: Underworld Contacts 13, Boss of Servants 17
Followers: 4 Servants 17 (to serve patrons)

Unsur – this brute of an Esrolian man is a thug who is hiding out at Leera’s. Recently murdered two Red Earth faction couriers. His only goal now is to be able to drink in peace and forget that the authorities are pursuing him (he's really fun when he's partying). Unsur is Hidika’s sidekick, working on the ship when he’s not drunk.
Sailor 17 (Sail Ship, Dagger Fighting, Climb, Endure Weather, Hold Drink, Know Sea, Navigate by Stars, Seamanship, Swim, Tie Knots)
Sidekick Abilities: Attack From Concealment 18, Drunkard 15, Brute 6w

Captain Rousian - Local constable who works for Queen Rahal. She understands the political situation well, therefore does what Naera wants most of the time. But she doesn't really like them muscling in the way they are. She knows that Unsur is at Leera's, and has told Naera that he’s a suspect in the killings (but hasn’t done anything about it herself). Knows that Sabunda is looking for passes, but hasn’t said anything about that. Knows most everything, really, but plays dumb.
Esrolian 17 (Esrolian Customs, Esrolian Geography, Find Cooperative Solution, Speak Esrolian, Urban Survival, Fear Dragons, Revere Ancestors, Defensive about Family, Member of Earth Pantheon Temple)
Foot Soldier (Ordinary) 17 (Army Regulations 19, Identify Foe, Make Camp, March, Scan for Danger 18, Scouting, Swear Like a Soldier, Fight in Guard Unit, Spear and Shield Fighting 10w, Crossbow Fighting 19, Rhigos Guard Traditions 1w)
Earth Pantheon Worship 17 (Know Earth Pantheon Myths, Worship Earth Pantheon, Nurturing, Practical; Common Magic: (Talents)First Aid Self, Hide in Cover, Listen to Ancestor; (Feats) Strike Deity)
Abilities: Good Senses 16, Hold Ale 15, Know Rhigos 5w, Plain 13, Play Dumb 4w, Run Quickly 17, Run in Armor 14, Speak Calandran 14, Speak Elsuvari 17, Wirey Strength 15
Personality: Ambitious 16, Intelligent 19, Perceptive 15
Equipment: Finely Crafted Spear (+4) 15, Medium Armor and Shield (+4)
Relationships: Captain of Rhigos Guard 17, Leader of Soldiers, Serves Queen Rahal 15, Understanding with Naera 18
Followers: 12 Ordinary Foot Soldiers 17

Sabunda - A saboteur and noble who has been working to stop the Red Earth and has been forced to flee for her life after having been discovered. Married to Ahaelik.
Esrolian 17 (Esrolian Customs 19, Esrolian Geography, Find Cooperative Solution, Speak Esrolian 20, Urban Survival, Fear Dragons, Peaceful Reveres Ancestors 10w, Loves Family, Member of Vingan Temple)
Petty Noble 17 (Dueling 19, Exert Authority, Grooming, Identify Social Status, Politics 20, Protocool, Ride, Sing, Ambitious, Aristocratic, Warm Earth contacts, Wealth 5w)
Initiate of Vinga the Spearwoman 17 (Mythology of Thunder Brothers, Mythology of Vinga, Running, Spear Fighting 18, Throw Javelin 19, Wilderness Survival)
Abilities: Appear Innocent 16, Climb Wall 16, Hide 17, Know Rhigos 17, Lay Low 15, Running Jump 18, Sabatoge 5w, Sneak 20
Personality: Biased Towards Pure Esrolian Ways 18, Hates Lunars 20, Loves Esrolia 15
Equipment: Spear, Leather Armor, A Brace of Javelins
Relationships: Married to Ahaelik 20, Member of Warm Earth Faction 14
Magic: (Affinities) Combat 17, Movement 18, Protection 17; (Talent) Listen to Ancestor 20

Ahaelik - Married to Sabunda and the cause. Leera's former lover, and quite an attractive guy (Good Looks 15W). A dilettante who has learned a lot in his travels about Esrolia.
Esrolian 17 (Esrolian Customs 5w, Esrolian Geography 5w, Find Cooperative Solution, Speak Esrolian 20, Urban Survival, Fear Dragons, Peaceful, Loves Family, Member of Earth Pantheon Temple)
Petty Noble 17 (Dueling 20, Exert Authority, Grooming 19, Identify Social Status, Politics, Protocool, Ride, Play Harp, Aristocratic, Elistist, Warm Earth Faction Contacts 20, Wealth 5w)
Imarja and Our Good Friends + Curbside Society 17 (Esrolian History, Member of Curbside Society, Mythology of Imarja, Worship Imarja, Practical, Sensible; Common Magic: (Talents) Hide in Cover, Make Fire, Seduce, Stay Sober, (Spells) Confuse Opponent)
Abilities: Good Looks 15w, Know Foreign Customs 18, Read Body Language 16, Recognize Language 15, Speak Caladrian 17, Speak Elsuvari 17, Speak Heortling 17, Seduce 16
Personality: Dilettante 20, Charming 15
Equipment: Dagger (+1)
Relationships: Loves and is Married to Sabunda 20, Loves Leera 16, Members of Red Earth Faction 15


Hidikha - Owner and captain of a ship. Like Leera, she doesn't want to get involved, but does want to make a profit. And she has her eye on Mircos.
Esrolian 17 (Esrolian Customs, Esrolian Geography, Find Cooperative Solution, Speak Esrolian, Urban Survival, Fear Dragons, Forgot Ancestors, Black Sheep of Family, Member of Earth Pantheon Temple)
Sailor 17 (Sail Ship 5w, Cutlass Fighting, Climb 18, Endure Weather 19, Hold Drink, Know Sea 5w, Navigate by Stars, Seamanship, Swim 18, Tie Knots)
Initiate of Pelaskos the Fisher 17 (Fishing, Know Earth Pantheon Myths, Worship Earth Pantheon, Worship Pelaskos the Fisher, Member of Temple of Pelaskos)
Abilities: Captain Ship 5w, Identify Pirate 16, Ship-Board Fighting 20, Speak Caladran 15, Speak Elsuvari 17, Speak Wenelian 14, Wealth 3w
Personality: Attracted to Mircos 14, Pragmatic 17
Equipment: Mirrorsea's Mistress 2w
Relationships: Captain of the Mirrorsea's Mistress 20, Lead Followers 17
Followers: 4 Sailors 17
Magic: Boats 18, Fishing, Overcome Sea 19

Gerisa - Local Anti-Red Earth Faction agent. Wants Hidikha to smuggle Sabunda out for her. Has a plan to raid an old tomb complex that he has learned about on a small island nearby (they are ancestors of Naera’s so he feels no guilt in raiding them) to gain the gold he needs to pay Hidikha to take Sabunda.
Esrolian (Esrolian Customs, Esrolian Geography, Find Cooperative Solution, Speak Esrolian, Urban Survival, Fear Dragons, Revere Ancestors, Defensive about Family, Member of Earth Pantheon Temple)
Warrior 17 (Endurance, Guard Camp, Know Lunar Tactics 20, Know Rhigos 18, Listen, Spear and Shield Fighting, Archery, Recognize Fighting Style 19, Recognize Foe, Ride, Scout, Fyrd Fighting, Brave, Determined)
Worship Destor the Adventurer 17 (Boast, Devotee of Destor 18, Dodge Attack, Jump, Mythology of Orlanth, Mythology of Thunder Brothers 20, Sense Change in Weather, Soul Vision, Sword and Shield Fighting 5w, Curious, Responsible)
Abilities: Avoid Trap 16, Hide 17, Inconspicous 18, Know Rhigos 4w, Lie 20, Open Lock 14, Sneak 16, Wealth 18
Personality: Adventurous 20, Hates Lunars 18, Risk-taker 15
Equipment: Lock Picks (+5), Sword, Leather Armor, and Shield (+3/+2)
Relationships: Member of Red Earth Faction 17, Sartarite Contacts 20
Magic: (Affinities) Combat 18, Movement 18, Wind 17

Mircos - Esvulari man who wants to return home as he doesn’t like the political turn of events. He works at Leera's as an entertainer (initiate of Donandar or something), and is in the process of seducing Hidikha to get him out. To make it work he has to convince Hidikha that she should come along to Esvular. Not as good looking as Ahealik, but very charming (10W).
Esvulari 17 (Esrolian Customs 18, Esulvari Customs 18, Heortling Customs 18, Home City Geography, Home City Politics, Speak Esvulari 20, Urban Survival 19, Enterprising, Fear Dragons)
Entertainer (Lute) 17 (Compose Entertainment, Concentrate, Sing Stories 1w, Good Memory, Group Performance, Know Rhigos People, Play Audience, Presence 18, Spot Trouble, Clever, Eloquent)
Worship Donandar (Harmonize with Strangers, Memorize Music, Mythology of Donandar, Perform, Play Lute 5w, Read Emotions, Sing, Worship Donandar, Happy, Musical, Outgoing; Common Magic*: (Talents) Sing in Another Language, Feel Tones, Make Music Visible, Unforgettable Melody; *Concentrated Magic)
Abilities: Attractive 17, Dagger Fighting 20, Dodge Attack 16, Esrolian Geography 17, Duck For Cover 15, Speak Esrolian 15, Seduce 20
Personality: Charming 10w, Easy-going 15
Equipment: Sweet-Sounding Lute 15
Relationships: Works for Leera 13


Bangs
Patrol – Naera comes to the Esrolian Foot Soldier (EFS) and asks for her to look for the murderer of the two couriers (knowing that his loyalties are to her cause). She directs him to Leera’s where she’s heard from the captain that there’s a guy hiding out. This is, of course Unsur, who EFS will recognize when he sees him as a guy she used to be friends with when Unsur was also a footman a long time ago. Give the player a free relationship to Unsur (forgotten until now - Old Friend of Unsur). Does EFS turn him in or not? And does he follow up on the web into which Unsur has gotten himself tangled?
Scenes: Neara interacting with the EFS, EFS and Unsur.

Recognized! - Captain Rousia notes EFS at the bar, and recognizes her as the High Queen's guard who got banished for sleeping with the HQ's son. She attempts to get friendly with the EFS and then, after finding out what shes up to, tries to blackmail her. What does the EFS have that could keep Rousia's mouth shut? Is it really important for her to keep her secret to herself? Is her banishment going to chase her for the rest of her life?
Scenes: EFS and Rousia.

Plotting – the Lunarized Carmanian Petty Noble is staying at Leera’s. He’s trying to establish himself in Esrolia as he lacks an established power base, and has gotten to know Naera who is sympathetic to his cause as she sees LCPN as someone who will support the Red Earth cause. As such, she has introduced LCPN into Queen Rahal’s court. There the Queen takes a big risk, and takes him into her confidence and tells him that she'll use her influence to help marry him into the power structure, if he works as a double agent against Naera. Does he accept the offer, or does he stay loyal to Naera, and report on the Queen? Or play them both off against each other for greater gain (and larger risk)?
Scenes: LCPN and Queen Rahal, LCPN and Naera

Bar Buddy - LCPN has been spending time at Leera’s with this fun lowlife, Unsur (free relationship again). One night when he’s really drunk he spills he says some things that might connect him to the murders. How does LCPN use this information?
Scenes: Drinking With Unsur!

Tomb Raider – The Esrolian Scholar (ES) recently was contacted about researching the location of the tombs of Naera’s ancestors by Gerisa. Now she asks him if he knows anyone who’d be amenable to raiding a tomb. Does he go to get the adventure he’s looking for, or does he report the illegal activity? To the captain or to Naera (makes a big difference)?
Scenes: Gerisa and the ES, (maybe) the ES reporting

Tomb Raider 2 – I’m going to guess that the player will go, meaning that the first isn’t much of a bang (but, heck, I could be wrong, and the player should have the option). They go to the tomb and have an interesting adventure (write up five rolls that they have to get by – make it short and sharp, because the adventure isn’t the real bang). After they return, Gerisa asks for ES’s share of the loot for the cause, explaining the situation. Does he narc now, or join the conspiracy and real adventure? Will he find that adventures have an impact on real life unlike in stories?
Scenes: Tomb Raiding, Raiding Aftermath

Big Adventure – If ES falls for Gerisa’s adventuring ways (which she’ll be amenable to – stress and trauma tend to produce relationships), then she asks him to go with the ship to Esvular to help guard the guy. Does he go on the big adventure, or insist on staying?
Scenes: Leave Esrolia?

<n>Friends?</n> - The Puma Person Hunter (PPH) and Mircos have recently been spending time together (again, free relationship if the player wants it). She spends some time hunting illegally in a small forest south of town to make a living, but Mircos is the only person who has taken a liking to her so far, and she spends a lot of time with him. Mircos is intrigued by her cat nature, and could fall for her. He tells her that he has a contact with some information about her family, and that he’ll bring it to her later. Then in the next scene PPH catches Mircos trying to seduce Hidikha (in order to get her to take him to Esrolia). Does PPH swallow her pride to get the information she wants? Or does she confront her only friend? (And more importantly can they work out their relationship’s problems in general?)
Scenes: Time with Mircos, Mircos in Hidikha in Leena's

Info Source - Living at Leera’s PPH encounters Ahaelik one night trying to drown his sorrows. They get to talking, and commiserating. Turns out she knows a lot about Esrolia, and can help PPH there. Hopefully PPH gets infatuated with this individual (males are much more approachable than females in Esrolia because of their lower positions), which will be completely problematic as he’s already involved with two women, both of whom he loves. How can PPH have both a friend in Ahaelik and get the information she wants without scaring him away?
Scenes: Encounter with Ahaelik

Working for the Man – The Foreign Warrior and Devotee of Babeester Gor (FWDB) is working security of late for Sabunda. The thing is that Sabunda has taken her on because she can’t afford anyone else (FWDB has trouble finding work because of her ethnicity). She abuses FWDB accidentally, referring to her as having inferior ancestry in an off-hand way and the like (she’s very biased towards “pure Esrolian ways”). Does FWDB take the abuse, or quit the only job she’s likely to be able to hold down? When the chips are down and her boss is in danger, will she defend him or not? What does that say about how she feels towards her heritage? Her current culture? Her goddess?
Scenes: Working for the Man

Ritual - Queen Rahal needs some information about a Babeester Gor ritual (she’s hoping to boost up the sturdyness of her men-at-arms in case things come to a head). The Queen reluctantly sends for FWDB. What does FWDB want in return for her services to the Queen? What does that say about things like respect, and place in society?
Scenes: Working for the BIG Man

Anyway, as you can see (assuming you bothered to read what I did for statting out the characters (;)) and the few adaptions I did, it works well for the most part and serves as a good start for the campaign as a whole.

I do have a few questions though....
In the past I generally haven't ran very many romantic plotlines, though I am not opposed to it as I know some GMs are, they just haven't happened. When you talk about characters falling for each other and such, how do you handle it? I mean I can see how to handle the NPC side of things, but how would you handle having a PC fall for a character. Granted, I could simply have a roll and tell the player, "Your character is falling in love with so-and-so" but that seems to infringe on their will to run their character a little bit.

Also, as you can see above I noted the scenes I could see arising from each "Bang." Do you think I have a pretty good handle on the subject? I noted that there seems to be a little bit of a discrepency in the number of scenes each character gets. The FWDB gets 2, the ES gets 5, and the rest get 3. Am I misreading something?

Further on the topic of scenes, do you have any reccomendations on how to manage them? I am pretty familiar with the more typical plot and character oriented D&D session games (as opposed to dungeon crawls, et al), but this is quite a step in a different direction from that. In particular I am concerned about keeping the players entertained as I am switching back and form between them. (Though the thought of them never having to get involved with the same group intrigues me greatly).

Any more advice you could give me would be great. What you have already given me has been invaluable. We play tonight, but even if it is after then it would be useful for me in future sessions.... :)

Jesse Dean

simon_hibbs wrote:

I'd put them up against an enemy they can all hate - The Malkioni! So Heortland has been taken over by Richard the Tiger Hearted, and taking over Esrolia is next on his agenda. Rokari missionaries are sent in secretly to sow dissent and destabilise the Queendom. Pick a Malkioni hero band and make them the instrument of Richard's plan. Maybe Richard, or one of his over-zealous henchmen, is in league with the Vadeli as the result of some unspeakable pact.

Perhaps they're trying to spread plague or an infestation of chaos creatures in the city, then offer to help get rid of it and thus gain influence.


Simon Hibbs

Sorry that I didn't get back to you in time (I'm often unavailable on weekends).

Looks tight to me, Jesse. Good catch on Esvular, and the choices you made for religions, etc, look great. Did it go well?

Note that I wouldn't have bothered to stat the NPCs. I'd have given them keywords as seemed appropriate, and then just created stats on the spot as I needed them. It's a lot less work, and as these characters might not end up being long term (some will, some won't), I don't lose the effort put into statting them if they dissappear for any reason.

OTOH, if you just like statting, what the heck. All looks very nice to me. :-)

As for the Bangs, I think the scenes that you envision look fine. The thing is to play it fast and loose. That is, if you see a better way to insert the Bang in play, then do that. Don't have it planned out that you need to do X her, and Y there, and with only A and B present. Just throw them out as they seem to make the most dramatic sense. You'll know it when you see it. The idea isn't to ensure that the things happen per the Bangs so much as the questions that they imply get asked in play. (OTOH, it may happen that the scenes that you've thought up are the perfect way to go - you just can't tell until you play). So, did they work well? Did you exchange them for anything?

As far as framing scenes, just use some narrative technique to get from point to point. For example, as you feel one scene wrapping up, just say, "And they spend the next couple of hours chatting together. Meanwhile, on the other end of town there's a secret meeting of strange bedfellows going on."

Just tag off the last scene, and then start to frame the next. Some people even use explicit direction techniques like saying "Cut", and then "Zoom in on a scene at the port. As the camera pans past the various ships in the harbor, it settles on Zim and Zam talking at a shoreside cafe. Zim says, 'Do you have it Zam?'"

Did you try something like that? Did it seem difficult or easy?

As for Romance, I know it's hard to do, but try to think about it as just like any other interaction. That is, if you had an NPC trying to get a PC to switch sides in a political conflict, how would you play it? Play the romance stuff the same way. That's intentionally vague, because some groups are used to interactions being handled mostly by talking them out. Other's allow the system to intervene. Did you encounter this in play?

Really looking forward to hearing how it went. Did the players get what you were trying to do? Did they resist, or did they take to it?

Mike

The session ended up being pretty short tonight thanks to a combination of the fact that 1) I was late getting back from a Christmas party at my aunt's (thought I think my friends forgave me considering all the munchies my aunt gave me to bring back. ;)) 2) I had to be to work at midnight. For my Night Watch job. I did get to go through a scene with each of the characters and ended the night on a cliffhanger after the EFS convinced Unsur to give up some information.

Some general notes on what happened:
The new player (the one playing the EFS) felt a little overwhelmed at times especially with some of the gamer jokes that people were making from previous sessions. I think the group was a little bit too rambuctious (and loud) when I was trying to run things with other members of the group. I will have to talk to them about that before next session.

The ES flubbed on his roll to find out information about the ancestors of Neara at the beginning of the game so he didn't have anything for Gerisa. Gerisa tried to convince him to go on the adventure but he played dumb (as in I am naive and timid) until she defeated him in a contest of her Advenerous vs. his Timid. I was impressed with his willingness to go along with the results of his roll for his character's actions. An interesting note is later on when I was giving the EFS an overview of some of the political stuff, he asked if he knew any of this information. I told him to roll his political knowledge roll (one of his ten abilities) and he got a critical success. So I gave him the information, resulting in him suddenly remembering who Neara was after the events of the conversation. I am kind of curious as to what he will do with this information.

I was able to get through a scene with the PPH and Mircos, where they were interacting while hunting in the forest, but I kind of flubbed it. I layed his compliments on a bit too thick and it came off as a little bit silly/desperate rather than charming. I am still getting the hang of playing of romantic-style rping and will have to think about alternative things to do for the next session. (The fact that most girls seem to initiate stuff with me rather then me successfully starting things with them probbaly doesn't help my skill in that either :P).

With the FWDG I divided her scene with Sabunda up in breaks between other people's scenes, and decided to use it as an extended contest between her "Vengeful Under Stress" and Sabunda's "Biased Towards Pure Esrolian Ways" for Sabunda trying to put the FWBG into place and the FWBG trying to prevent herself from lashing out and killing Sabunda. We had gotten through two rounds, with Sabunda winning one and the other before the night ended. I am thinking we should have declared a different ability then Vengeful Under Stress for the contest, but otherwise that went well. The player seemed to enjoy the interaction though she found it a little bit funny at first. I also made sure to pepper it with plenty of racial slurs and decided that part of the reasons she is acting like this is because of the stress over being forced to hide out. I also decided to throw in the fact that she was hiding out in Leera's. This has resulted in her spotting all of the PCs except for one that evening (and a reasonable portion of the NPCs too).

The Lunarized Carmanian Petty Noble decided to change his character a little bit before play, instead becoming a Darra Happan ex-calvary Petty Noble with similar goals but less of a focus on the Lunar Way. I only got through the scene with him wherein he was drinking with Unsur, and Unsur implied that he knew something about the killing. He also particpated in the EFS's scene.

I was able to get through 1.5 scenes with the EFS. The first one started with her sparring with her eunuch sidekick and him getting a fumble. Whoops. I decided he dislocated his shoulder (getting a Hurt) even though their goal was only to defeat each other in sparring. Neara showed up and after some akwardness after the EFS's player got used to role-playing for the first time she agreed to investigate the murders and headed over to Leera's.

At Leera's she saw Unsur and the DHPN having a drink and decided to question them since they were drinking and thus more likely to be amiable to her questions. She also spotted the FWBG and Sabunda at another table and Mircos trying to seduce Hidikha (and doing a pretty effective job at it). She came over and questioned Unsur and the DHPN, who succeeded both at using his Way With the Ladies at a -5 to guess her favorite drink and his Drinking Buddy with Unsur ability to get Unsur to leave him alone with the attractive Vingan. She stopped Unsur from leaving and basically straight out asked if they new anything about the killings using her Seduction-5 augmented with Assertive, though I think she should have been able to use Attractive as an augment too now that I think about it. I also probably should have not given her the penalty as that is pretty appropriate for the seduction ability. I had him resist wit his Drunkard and she got a major defeat. So I had him ask about why, she said she was just curious (or something like that) and the session ended with her agreeing to go up to his room to discuss it.

As you can see, for the most part I just went with the scenes as written. Though, I improvised with the FWBG and just threw an extra in with the PPH to (poorly) establish a basis for her relationship with Mircos.

I warned the group before-hand that I was going to try doing something new and things went pretty well, I think. I haven't talked with all the players yet but for the most part I was satisfied.

I think I have the mechanical stuff down for handling romance (basically an extended contest between appropriate abilities) its just I need to work on my skill with dealing with the interaction side of the contest so they can take it seriously.

I handled scene changes merely by describing the initial conditions for it, i.e. describing what was going on, the surrounding, etc. and then letting the PCs interact with it. It seemed to work out really well. I would have felt silly using "cut", etc. :-P

The only area I really had an issue with rules-wise was how to handle using hero points in play. The puma person wanted to pick up attractive (after Mircos was complimenting her about it) and the EFS wanted conceal thoughts so she could hide her nervousness about interacting with Unsur and the DHPN. I went ahead and allowed it (at 1 point for each of them), but looking it up in the book later it seems that them gaining abilities should be more something that happens by developing them in play or training between sessions.

I also think I could have given some more work characterizing with Esrolia itself was like. I also think I am going to flesh out the EFS's tribe a little bit more as she wants to be a Queen, and that will require the support of her tribe to accomplish.

Also how should I deal with characters who have abilites like spirit face and soul sight? Should I reveal the random godlings and spirits who wander around the world or just not use them unless its appropriate?

Jesse D.

No comments, Mike?

Sorry, missed your post somehow (didn't see a New Post marker for the thread). I was starting to worry, actually, that it had gone all terribly haywire, and that your group had eaten you or something. :-)

doubtofbuddha wrote: The session ended up being pretty short tonight ...

The ES flubbed on his roll to find out information about the ancestors of Neara at the beginning of the game so he didn't have anything for Gerisa.

Gerisa tried to convince him to go on the adventure but he played dumb (as in I am naive and timid) until she defeated him in a contest of her Advenerous vs. his Timid. I was impressed with his willingness to go along with the results of his roll for his character's actions.

An interesting note is later on when I was giving the EFS an overview of some of the political stuff, he asked if he knew any of this information. I told him to roll his political knowledge roll (one of his ten abilities) and he got a critical success. So I gave him the information, resulting in him suddenly remembering who Neara was after the events of the conversation. I am kind of curious as to what he will do with this information.

I was able to get through a scene with the PPH and Mircos, where they were interacting while hunting in the forest, but I kind of flubbed it. I layed his compliments on a bit too thick and it came off as a little bit silly/desperate rather than charming. I am still getting the hang of playing of romantic-style rping and will have to think about alternative things to do for the next session. (The fact that most girls seem to initiate stuff with me rather then me successfully starting things with them probbaly doesn't help my skill in that either :P).

With the FWDG I divided her scene with Sabunda up in breaks between other people's scenes, and decided to use it as an extended contest between her "Vengeful Under Stress" and Sabunda's "Biased Towards Pure Esrolian Ways" for Sabunda trying to put the FWBG into place and the FWBG trying to prevent herself from lashing out and killing Sabunda. We had gotten through two rounds, with Sabunda winning one and the other before the night ended. I am thinking we should have declared a different ability then Vengeful Under Stress for the contest, but otherwise that went well.

The player seemed to enjoy the interaction though she found it a little bit funny at first. I also made sure to pepper it with plenty of racial slurs and decided that part of the reasons she is acting like this is because of the stress over being forced to hide out. I also decided to throw in the fact that she was hiding out in Leera's. This has resulted in her spotting all of the PCs except for one that evening (and a reasonable portion of the NPCs too).

The Lunarized Carmanian Petty Noble decided to change his character a little bit before play, instead becoming a Darra Happan ex-calvary Petty Noble with similar goals but less of a focus on the Lunar Way. I only got through the scene with him wherein he was drinking with Unsur, and Unsur implied that he knew something about the killing. He also particpated in the EFS's scene.

I was able to get through 1.5 scenes with the EFS. The first one started with her sparring with her eunuch sidekick and him getting a fumble. Whoops. I decided he dislocated his shoulder (getting a Hurt) even though their goal was only to defeat each other in sparring.

Neara showed up and after some akwardness after the EFS's player got used to role-playing for the first time she agreed to investigate the murders and headed over to Leera's.

At Leera's she saw Unsur and the DHPN having a drink and decided to question them since they were drinking and thus more likely to be amiable to her questions. She also spotted the FWBG and Sabunda at another table and Mircos trying to seduce Hidikha (and doing a pretty effective job at it).

She came over and questioned Unsur and the DHPN, who succeeded both at using his Way With the Ladies at a -5 to guess her favorite drink and his Drinking Buddy with Unsur ability to get Unsur to leave him alone with the attractive Vingan. She stopped Unsur from leaving and basically straight out asked if they new anything about the killings using her Seduction-5 augmented with Assertive, though I think she should have been able to use Attractive as an augment too now that I think about it.

I also probably should have not given her the penalty as that is pretty appropriate for the seduction ability. I had him resist wit his Drunkard and she got a major defeat. So I had him ask about why, she said she was just curious (or something like that) and the session ended with her agreeing to go up to his room to discuss it.

As you can see, for the most part I just went with the scenes as written. Though, I improvised with the FWBG and just threw an extra in with the PPH to (poorly) establish a basis for her relationship with Mircos.

I think I have the mechanical stuff down for handling romance (basically an extended contest between appropriate abilities) its just I need to work on my skill with dealing with the interaction side of the contest so they can take it seriously.

I handled scene changes merely by describing the initial conditions for it, i.e. describing what was going on, the surrounding, etc. and then letting the PCs interact with it. It seemed to work out really well. I would have felt silly using "cut", etc. :-P

The only area I really had an issue with rules-wise was how to handle using hero points in play. The puma person wanted to pick up attractive (after Mircos was complimenting her about it) and the EFS wanted conceal thoughts so she could hide her nervousness about interacting with Unsur and the DHPN. I went ahead and allowed it (at 1 point for each of them), but looking it up in the book later it seems that them gaining abilities should be more something that happens by developing them in play or training between sessions.

I also think I could have given some more work characterizing with Esrolia itself was like.

I also think I am going to flesh out the EFS's tribe a little bit more as she wants to be a Queen, and that will require the support of her tribe to accomplish.

Also how should I deal with characters who have abilites like spirit face and soul sight? Should I reveal the random godlings and spirits who wander around the world or just not use them unless its appropriate?

Well if the group had decided to devour me alive, at least I would be good eating. :D

Hmm. I can see why you did the roll, it gives the PC a chance to display his talent. OTOH, Bangs often require that you just skip that stuff. I'd have said that he was successful previously with the search, and put him at the point of deciding whether or not to give her the info. Again, the conflict is whether or not he decides to go, not whether or not he finds the info. So I'd make that certain in this case.

Hmmm. Interesting. At times I wouldn't suggest that this is a good idea. That is, by making this a roll, you're taking away the decision of the player. OTOH, by making it a roll you're using the engine for what it's for. So, themeatically the player said no, but ended up going along anyhow. Which I dig a lot.

The question is would you have accepted it if the dice had said that he didn't have to go? Because that would be a viable solution.

Which information, the fact of Naera's family background? Or something else? In any case, it sounds like precisely the right way to handle it to me.

One easy technique is to step out of character and explain what's happening OOC. "You get the feeling that he's hitting on you." Tie it to a roll based on perceptiveness or something if you like. The idea is that if you can't make the character perform, narrate it. Better yet, like in your other example, roll something. Doesn't have to be consequential, but the mechanical effect can be impressive itself. That is, once the player sees the character's Charm Ability level, they'll get that it's supposed to be really charming.

Remember that you can change up for subsequent rounds if it seems appropriate. For long term contests this is particularly appropriate. I have this character who's seducing this guy's wife in another game, taking a month to do it (during which time she's teaching him Selfrock Teaching). I've used different Abilities on every roll so far. The end comes on Saturday, and I can't wait to see what happens. :-)

Note how things get mixed up? Soon the PCs will be chasing after the PCs for things, and scenes with multiple players will become common.

Did he do anything about the knowledge that Unsur gave him? BTW, did you substitute any of the map NPCs for followers?

So, when you felt a scene had ended you just interjected with setting the new scene? That's good narrative method. Or did you just let things die off? That's not so good. Once the characters have made the nifty decisions that the scene presents, get to another scene by whatever method works for you. Don't let things drag out. Don't worry about interrupting, the players will appreciate what you're doing. If they have a concern they'll let you know and you can always go back.

There's some debate on how to work with this. The real question is what the players are comfortable with. Did they like how you did it? I would. So it all sounds kosher to me.

Pile on the NPCs. The more the merrier. Remember that there's no plot to mess up, so any addition like this is only a good thing. Let the players decide what's interesting to follow up on.

The big thing now, is to make more Bangs. The biggest advantage to this sort of prep is that continuing prep is easy. What seemed to interest each player most? Make up one or two short Bangs for each based on that. Alwys stay a step ahead. That doesn't mean that you always have to use Bangs, however. Remember that if a player wants a particular scene to just go with that. You're still in the early on where you may need to prompt action with Bangs a lot. After a while you may need them less as the players just get a sense of what they want to see their characters do.

doubtofbuddha wrote: Yeah, I have used techniques like that in the past, and it would probably be wise to apply it to this situation too. Plus it would be able to handle any akwardness that might arise from the me role-playing romantic interactions between female NPCs and my male players. (I have more female players than male players. ::smirks::)

I imagine that if I am particularly impressed with someone's role-playing or plan that I will give them a bonus to their roll.

Indeed! I am beginning to think its a player's natural inclination to be in a group. ;)

Though, I think some of the players are less likely than the others to get involved with each other. Even those who do get involved with each other are going to take quite a while for it to come about.
Also, if the DHPN decides to play double agent in the attempt to gain personal power over power for his Empire he might end up in opposition with some of the PCs!

I am also kind of curious as to how things will develop if one (or more) of the PCS end up taking a trip to Elsuvar while the rest stay in Rhigos.

She has since lured Unsur up to his room thanks to her seduction (I am wondering how he is going to react to her wanting information but not giving him what she sexually implied. On one hand he is a brute, on the other this is a matriarchal society...hmmmm...)

No, I did not map any of them to the followers. None really had ones that fit an appropriate role (one is a mythical hero that only appears in times of need, two are foreigners, and one is a magical talking sparrow)

Oh, basically when ever I saw an approrpiate cut in the drama I skipped out to someone else. For the FWDBG I did that after each interaction. For the EFS and the ES I did it after they had finished their interactions with their NPCs....

Yeah, I just felt kind of weird about them suddently acquiring abilities in the middle of the session. I mean whats to stop them from just saying, oh I have this ability rather then spending the time to train for it?

Granted I probably should trust my players a bit more than that and try to step a little bit away from trying to simulate things, but its a difficult hurdle to overcome.

I will start piling on the NPCs a bit more, but she has since decided she doesn't want the political and religious duties that would come with being a Queen. ;) She's kind of young for it anyway. And is a Vinga worshipper rather than an Esrola worshippers.

I think I will start out with a captain of a local mercenary group, some of the Calandran Warlords who control the border region between Calandraland and Esrolia, (which Rhigos is nominally part of) and whatever else I can think of needing.

Oh, and I have long held the view that there is "no plot" to mess up. I present situations and let the PCs decide how and if they will deal with them. Usually they end up following my carrots but I am fine with them going off in an entirely different direction.

Hmmm....
I don't think we played long enough for me to be able to figure out what interested each of them, leaving me slightly at a loss for future bangs.

OK, maybe I do have a few bangs I could work up. :)

I think its worth stating that this thread has been absolutely invaluable in preparing my own HQ campaign. I have gained alot of insight into numerous topics that I was stuggling with.

Thank you very kindly.

Which one of us? ;)


Jesse D.

Alright, so I have my initial relationship map which will be put to good use this evening. :) I also spent a good portion of the game working on characters and ideas the relationship map and collection of bangs.

Does it appear that I have the hang of it or am I asking the wrong sorts of questions here?

Bezarando, Liturgist of Saint Gerlant
A crusader, without a crusade Bezarando grew up on the streets of Rhigos, poor and destitute. Eventually he was adopted into the Rokari Church of Rhigos where he was trained to be a church foot soldier and, when he came of age, a liturgist of the order of Saint Gerlant. Now he spends his days preaching, attempting to convert the people to the onte true faith. He has been unsuccessful thus far, but his eyes turn to the north and the potential of a crusade against the evil forces of the Lunar Empire.
Appearence: Fair-faced and young, Bezandro has long, brown hair and the dusky skin common among the inhabitants of Esrolia. He would be pleasing to one of the young priestesses of Rhigos if not for his faith.
Esrolian 17 (Esrolian Customs, Esrolian Geography, Find Cooperative Solution, Speak Esrolian)
Ordinary Foot Soldier 17 (Army Regulations, Identify Foe, Make Camp, March, Scan For Danger, Scouting, Templar Mass Combat, Templar Traditions)
Liturgist of the Order of St. Gerlant 17 (Broadsword Fighting, Know Saint Gerlant, Rule of Saint Gerlant, Venerate Saint Gerlant)
Abilities: Attractive 15, Broadsword and Shield Fighting 5w, Convert People to the One True Faith 20, Doctrine of Rokari Church 19, Grew Up On The Streets 15, Preach 8w, Resist Temptation 1w, Urban Survival 19, Venerate Makan 5w
Personality: Devout 3w, Disciplined 17, Fanatic 20, Fear Dragons 17, Obedient 18, Hate Chaos 19, Hate the Lunar Empire 18
Equipment: broadword(+3), chain mail and shield(+4), the Rule of Law, the Theoblanc PApers
Relationships: Member of Houshold of of Great Fire 17, Members of Rokari Church of Rhigos 2w
Magic*: The Abiding Book 18, The Rule of Law 20, The Life of Saint Gerlant the Pure 17, Miracles of the Saints, Volume IV 17 (Burn Away Pagan Magic, Burn Pagan, Burn Wound Closed, Commanding Shout, Defend Superior Officer, Flaming Sword, Heal Me Now, Ignite Kindling, Keep Me Warm, Protect Him, Rally Followers, Surprise Ghost, Sword Cutting)
* Concentrated
Connections: Wants to do something about Neara, Knows Luc van Baliif from services, will encounter CWDBG while preaching; EFS will be sent to "deal" with him.


Leik, Potential Kilted Duelist of Humakt (Orand's Sidekick)
Leik is a young warrior dedicated to becoming a member of the Kilted Duelists of Humakt. He has completed all of the initiation requirements save for that of defeating a worthy opponent in an honorable duel. So now he wanders the streets of Rhigos with his mentor, Orand, looking for such a foe.
Warrior 17
Sidekick Abilities: Hot-Headed 20, Resist Feminine Influence 18, Sword Fighting 7w

Orand, Leik's Mentor
Orand hates women, and always has. He sees their focus on peace as being a sign of weakness and their warriors as aberrations, attempting to become something that should rightfully only be dealt with by men. He joined the Kilted Duelists as a means to express his discontent and to practice his sword-fighting skills and find some sort of cause to believe in. He found it and, though some of the members do not share his views, he has been slowly converting the hero band over to his views. Soon he will have the influence needed to bring about a collapse of the matriarchy and a rise of men to power...For now though he is merely training new members of the organization and making sure that their young minds share his views.
Appearence: A big, strong male with a brown speckled-with gray beard and a completely shaved head. He has a tattoo of Humakt's rune on his forehead and each of his forearms. He wears a short-sleeved shirt with silver armbands on either arm, immediately below his tattoos.
Esrolian 17 (Esrolian Customs, Esrolian Geography, Find Cooperative Solution, Speak Esrolian, Urban Survival)
Warrior 17 (Endurance, Guard Camp, Know Esrolian Tactics, Know Local Area, Listen, Spear and Shield Fighting, Dagger Throwing, Recognize Fighting Style, Recognize Foe, Ride, Scout, Urban Group Fighting)
Initiate of Humakt 17 (Geas: Never refuse a challange to one-on-one combat; Craft Weapon, Dagger Fighting, Mythology of Humakt, Sword Fighting)
Abilities: Detect Lie 2w, Force Honesty Through Pain 19, Greatsword Fighting 10w, Intimidating Glare 3w, Lead Through Example 4w, Light Sleeper 3w, Recognize Fighting Style 4w, Strong 18, Unarmed Combat 20
Personality: Bloodthirsty 1w, Brave 17, Determined 19, Fear Dragons 17, Grim 4w, Hates Women 15w, Honorable 20
Equipment: Greatsword (+5), Scale Armor (+3)
Relationships: Black Sheep of Family 17, Despise Ancestors 17, Loyal to the Grand Duelist of the Kilted Duelists 2w, Initiate of Humakt 17, Member of Kilted Duelists of Humakt 10w
Followers: Leik, sidekick (see above)
Magic: Combat 20, Death 17, Honor 17; Regains 1 AP each turn.

Connections: Will encourage his student to challenge either the EFS or the CWDBG to a duel. If his student loses he will swear vengeance and come back to challenge them at a later date.

Dorsha
Dorsha is a librarian and scholar of the Temple of Epikhor in Rhigos. She considers herself to be Rhigos's foremost expert on Caladraland and is always seeking the knowledge to become the foremost expert in Esrolia. She would very much like to go on an expedition to visit its major sites and build a base of knowledge of her own, but she realizes that it would probably be much to dangerous, so instead she just seeks to acquire the works and tales of people who have visited the nation themselves.
Appearance: A bookish women in her mid-thirties, wearing a long gray robe with a pen stuck behind her ear and carrying multiple books. Her hair is a mess.
Esrolian 17 (Esrolian Customs, Esrolian Geography, Find Cooperative Solution, Speak Esrolian, Urban Survival)
Scholar 17 (History, Know Customs of Strangers, Know Trivia, Make Writing Materials, Read Esrolian, Speak Caladran, Write Esrolian)
Initiate of Epikhor the Librarian 17 (Research Ancient Knowledge, Teach)
Abilities: Caladran Customs 18, Caladran Geography 20, Caladran History 4w, Find Books in Library 5w, Memorize Text 20, Mythology of Epikhor 5w, Mythology of Caladran Pantheon 4w, Near-Sighted 13, Read For Hours 16, Read Caladran 17, Write Caladran 17
Pesonality: Authorative 1w, Curious 19, Fear Dragons 17, Peaceful 20, Pompous 18
Equipment: Caladran Texts (+3), Wealth 20
Relationships: Curious About Ancestors 17, Initiate of Epikhor the Librarian 4w, Loves Family 18, Librarian of Great Temple of Epikhor in Rhigos 4w;
Magic*: Knowledge 2w, Librarian 1w, Literacy 17, Soul Vision 20
* Concentrated
Connections: She will catch the ES summoning his "hero"


<bBANGS!

The Tomb
There will be two concurrent extended contests.
One is the knowledge needed to get past the dungeon's various traps and dangers.
The other is the physical abilities needed to get past the traps and dangers.
The Dungeons has the following statistics:
Physical Challenges: 5w
Appropriate Abilities: Overcome Traps, Agile (-5), Running (-5)
Typical Modifers and Augments: Open Lock, Perceptive, Scan For Danger
Mental Challenges: 20
Appropriate Abilities: Mythology of Earth Pantheon, Mythology of Ernalda, Esrolian History (-5), History (-10)
Augments: Esrolian Customs, Read Esrolian, Relationship with Ancestors (-10)

Sum the totals of the extended contests.
Critical Success: The parties involved get through in record time, utterly avoiding the dangers and traps.
Any other success: Successfully makes it through.
Marginal Failure: The parties involved each get a Hurt, and are forced to flee by arriving guards.
Minor Failure: The parties involved each get an Injury and 1/2 captured by arriving guards.
Major Failure: The parties involved each get a Injury and are captured by arriving guards.
Complete Failure: The parties involved each get an Impairment and are captured by arriving guards.

The Duel
The CWDBG is waling through the city minding her own business when a pair of armed and armored men with large swords and kilts approach her. Orand and Leik are looking for a suitable opponent for Leik to prove his dueling skills on, and Orand has decided that the female foreigner is a perfect target. Leik begins taunting the CWDBG and eventually challenges her to a duel. What does the CDBG do? Does she accept the duel and embrace her previous murderous ways or does she find a way to talk him down?

Caught!
The ES is experimenting with summoning his "mythic hero" in the library of Epikhor when Dorsha happens on to him. The "mythic hero" disappears when she arrives and Dorsha begins questioning him. What does the ES tell her about his abilities? If so is he willing to get over his timid nature and his desire for secrecy and privacy in exchange for the oppurtunity to get their help in learning about and controlling his abilities?

The Hatchetman
Naera approaches the EFS with the problem of a street preacher who has been raising dissent against the Lunar Empire, thus causing popular opinion to flower against it. She wants the EFS to deal with it. She warns her that the preacher is popular and she should avoid killing him as that might make him a martyr. It would be better to instead, either to change his views, or discredit him to his followers. Does the EFS do this? Does she continue serving as Naera's hatchet-woman or does find her own way?

The Street Preacher
If Neara chooses to take out the Street Preacher she has little difficulty finding him. He is surrounded by adoring listeners who seem to be eager to listen to the words he preaches. How does she remove the threat that he presents? Does she kill him or find another way to discredit him? If she does kill him how does she avoid making him a martyr?


Also, how do I go about working things like down time, where they can spend hero points to do things off screen, and such.

You mentioned in your previous post about how that the idea you are going to play your character forever (or until she dies) should be done away with in this style of game. Any suggestions on how to convince the players that said idea is a good one? :)

Jesse Dean

Yeah so we finished session 2 and ended it with a pretty long discussion on the game so far and the player complaints about it.

Some issues brought up:
The general consensus was that the group needed to have more involvement with each other. The amount of downtime between when the individual characters were doing stuff was taking too long, and everyone had more fun when they were interacting with the other player characters.

There were a few complaints about the system too. For players who were used to playing more typical d20 Fantasy, they felt they didn't have much of a sense of accomplishment from getting a few hero points that they did from getting a few experience points and then going up a level. I pointed that over the course of the two sessions they acquired 8 hero points but one player said it didn't feel quite the same as acquiring a few hundred to a thousand experience points.

Other people complained about the seeming lack of control that they had over the characters based on the use of personality traits and interaction skills to deal with others. I pointed out that just like certain characters would be more comptent with fighting than others and that was expressed in the system than some characters would be more influential an have more interaction ability than other characters and that should also be represented in the game world. She said she saw my point but that she thought doing it that way was less fun.

We had a few other people complain at the general lack of a sense of accomplishment that came from accomplishing the scenes. I think primarily because they are at least partially used to dealing with gamist rewards. One of the players talked about how it was great to be working towards long-term goals but he wanted his, to put in analogical form, his "+3 sword." He didn't think the ability to forge relationships with local factions and thus establish his power base was enough, apparently.

I told them I would try to move them towards more interaction based scenes, and one of the players even suggested a few (I assume these are what you would call "kickers"). She also talked about taking more control from the players in order to move things along (which I pointed out I was doing and gave examples, but yeah....)

So we are going to try out a few more sessions of this and decide whether to continue with this particular campaign or not.

If they chose that they want to end it then I am probably going to quit gaming entirely as it appeared to me, from our discussion, that what they want from gaming is different from what I want. I understand where they are coming from and I see what they want as being valid, its just not what "I" want. And if my player circle doesn't want the same kind of game as I want than I don't particularly want to game anymore as it would be a waste of my time and theirs. I am tired of d20 and similar games. I have been playing them for 12 years, and want something different. Apparently they still like what they are getting from it (none of the players has had more than a year of total game-time).

So bleah....

Also, I started a thread in my group's live journal community on this so they could summarize what their complaints were in case I missed them:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/worldsoftuerny/86124.html

Oh and this:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/worldsoftuerny/86516.html

If they chose that they want to end it then I am probably going to quit gaming entirely as it appeared to me, from our discussion, that what they want from gaming is different from what I want. I understand where they are coming from and I see what they want as being valid, its just not what "I" want. And if my player circle doesn't want the same kind of game as I want than I don't particularly want to game anymore as it would be a waste of my time and theirs. I am tired of d20 and similar games. I have been playing them for 12 years, and want something different. Apparently they still like what they are getting from it (none of the players has had more than a year of total game-time).

Quit gaming entirely.


Becaue to be quite honest, the current group has, after much effort and screening on my part, been the best I have EVER found. I am not sure I want to go through the work needed to acquire the gaming group required for what I am after now...

Hmmm. I see two routs here in general. Neither of which involves quitting. I'm glad to hear that you're continuing on.

One is to give the players what they want. Thier requests aren't so far-fetched in many ways. If they want to have more interactivity, then try to create Bangs that have two options: interact with PCs, or interact with other PCs. Or interacting with the same PC in different ways. Etc, etc. Remember, you can use a lot of Force now to give the players what they want. So if they want more interactivity, you can provide.

It's funny, but I didn't get a chance to respond to your post above about the prep. It looks great, except, as I warned about, the Bangs and NPC seem to drag away from the R-Map. So I was afraid that this would lead to less contact. Like I said, if you're going to have unrelated NPCs, then the map has to pull even harder to keep it one game instead of several being played at once.

Kickers are situations that the player proposes. And if a player wants one, then great. Even moreso, however, if a player asks for a scene of some sort, find a way to make it happen and soon. Don't garuntee resolution, just garuntee a chance to make some decisions. And when things don't seem to be working do something else. Don't sit on a Bang just because you planned it and threw it out there. If the players aren't interested, move on.

As far as character control, I mentioned that one above. If they don't like that sort of challenge, then just don't roll those. Simple as that. Make up the sort of challenges that they want for their characters. If you're not sure what that is, ask.

The Hero Point thing, I don't get at all. Then again, it's been a long time since I did D&D, really, and only that sort of game gives away pinball amounts of reward points. Seems to really have narrowed down your group to former d20 players. I'll get to that in a minute.

As far as reward types, and a sense of accomplishment, I was worried about that from the last post. I'm not sure why, but I don't think the Bangs are as Bangy as they should be. That is, they're not offering the players an opportunity to make decisions that they feel are pertinent to them as players. That's a risk you run at first, but I'm not sure there isn't something else going on. Might be that you've just been too accepting of my suggestions. If you know the players better (not the characters) then you'd have a better idea of what they like. Again more on that later.

Again, give them what they want. Do they want +3 Swords? You can do that, and better in HQ. Give em magic swords. Make em pay for em tho in terms of decisions in story. That is, make the attainment have to do with the character's issues. That makes them even more fun to get.


Now, it may be that none of this will work. It is entirely possible that, for any of a myriad of reasons that even if you try to cater further to the players, that they won't like it anyhow. That's why different games exist.

So here's my second option. Find another group. Now, I know that you said that this group is the "best" that you've ever found. But looking above at your "screening method" had me worried way back. It implies something that I was hoping wasn't true.

These people aren't your friends, are they? They're aquaintences that you've met for the purpose of gaming, right? Well, at least you seem to get along with them (some players will stick with a group depsite not liking the other players, which is really insane). But would you hang out with these people outside of a game? I put to you that you might not know these people well enough to game with them. An idea that we circulate is that gaming is a social activity first, and that one ought to know the people with whom they game. At least a little. Helps a lot with understanding what people like.

Now, does it mean that you can't play with people that you've just met? No, not at all. But if the social situation isn't right, then it makes the gaming all the harder.

More importantly, is how you got to know these people. I'm getting that you advbertised for them somehow? What you got, then, was a group of D20 players looking for a game. Well, no surprise that they're not into what you're into.

Now, at this point you might be saying, "But that leaves people that I know who want to play HQ, which is nobody." But I'd ask you if you've asked them. That is, people that you know. They don't have to be gamers. In fact, if they are gamers, ask someone else. Because anyone can enjoy RPGs. It's only gamers who ever have a problem with a game like HQ. I've never seen a non-gamer start a RPG and say, "Hey, I'm not advancing quickly enough."

That is, if you introduce new people to RPGs they'll quickly become the "best gamers" that you know, because they'll have learned to play from you. And therefore think that your game is the way to play. That is, they have no pre-conceptions to overcome.

Because those people that you're playing with will probably come around to HQ sooner or later. For some, however, it'll be so long that they'll have given up on your game before "getting it", before adjusting from what they're used to. So why go through all of that? Get people that you know and like to play. Make your own group, don't "recruit" from jaded gamers.

One more thing, if one or two drop out, so much the better. The mode that I've been describibing works best with fewer players for several reasons. 3 or 4 is optimal. So you may find that as the least suitable players leave, that the game just gets better and better.


Now, I'm all backpedaling here worried that I've ruined your gaming career. Tell me some good news. Did nothing cool happen. I was really looking forward to that tomb adventure. How did that go? :-)

Mike

I actually never got to the material I noted above.

So what happened had nothing to do with that.

All of their comments were based on me using the material that I had with the first set of bangs and relationship map. I never got into any of the material above (though I did have the PPH encounter Bezarando because she was making boredom noises). What do you think makes them not particularly bangy? I think I might want to, in future bangs, sort of provide a bit more force towards moving the group together and towards something a bit more gratifying in conclusion. Rather than an open-ended relationship map.

Also while I met some of the players through secondary sources most of them have grown to become friends. Some are closer than others, but I have hung out with all of them outside of the context of gaming. I even have been "involved" with one of them. Also of the eight people in my current overall "playing group" (i.e. the two groups I am running) only three of them (none of which were playing that evening) have any extensive experience in gaming outside of my games. Three of the others have been involved in a single campaign in the past. The last two had no previous gaming experience.

I spent most of the day (while running various errands) thinking about what exactly I wanted to do about this and my other, d20 Arcana Unearthed game, that I am currently running and I decided on following what is probably an extremist route. Basically, I think I have four players in my current extended group who I believe will be a bit more amiable to a change of style. This includes two of the players who tried out this hame of HeroQuest (the Esrolian Scholar and the Foreign Warrior Devotee of Babeester Gor if you are curious at all) and two who are just in my d20 game. This is of course assuming that they are interested in it and haven't gotten frustrated with me starting new games every 4-5 months. (I am only really worried about this being a problem with one of them, but you never know.)

And, now you haven't ruined my gaming career. :) I have honestly been teetering at the edge for a few years. This is just even more of an awakening. Hopefully it won't turn out that way, but its no great tragedy if it does.

I will ask the player who went through the tomb of what he thought of its resolution....


Jesse Dean

doubtofbuddha wrote: What do you think makes them not particularly bangy? I think I might want to, in future bangs, sort of provide a bit more force towards moving the group together and towards something a bit more gratifying in conclusion. Rather than an open-ended relationship map.

Also while I met some of the players through secondary sources most of them have grown to become friends.

Basically, I think I have four players in my current extended group who I believe will be a bit more amiable to a change of style.

And, now you haven't ruined my gaming career. :) I have honestly been teetering at the edge for a few years. This is just even more of an awakening. Hopefully it won't turn out that way, but its no great tragedy if it does.

I will ask the player who went through the tomb of what he thought of its resolution....

Mike Holmes wrote: This is hard to describe. It's impossible to develop reliable bangs for players that you don't know. Because, no matter what you know about the characters, you can't really know what part about the character intrigues the player the most unless you know the player. For example, I know my friend Dave, and when we play I know that, no matter what the character looks like, he's really interested in his character getting into power struggles, politics, and even military campaigns if possible (wargamer). So I know what sort of issues appeal to him.

The point is that I threw out there Bangs based on the just the goals that the players had listed for the characters. That's really sorta slim. Because, sometimes the players just put goals down because the GM tells them to.

As play proceeds, you'll get a better feel for what they like and what they don't like. As you do, appeal to the player, not the character.

It seems to me that you haven't posted any "then player A had his character do something really exciting!" sorts of posts. It almost sounds as if you're not getting them to the decision making point, or letting them slip out of them. Or, if they are getting to these points, like I said above, they're not the sorts of decisions that really engage the players.

2. Bangs should not make important decisions for the player.

3. Get to the Bangs, and then get to the Bangs.

But, hey, if I'm down in Florida some day, I'll come to play (ever go to GenCon?) :-)

Just kidding. I blame myself for not emphasizing enough that those Bangs were examples and should really have been altered to fit the players in question. Go with what you know about them. I don't know them, you do. What turns them on? If it's really D&D action, then you can give that to them. All the better for the context in which it'll exist using HQ.

You're suggesting starting a new game with these specific individuals? That sounds cool. You can consider this a test game, maybe, to see who likes what. You've really done the best thing in presenting the game with a straightforward idea of what it's like. Trying to change people's preferences is nigh impossible.

Tragedy for me. Mars the thread to say the least. And I hate to see a good gamer give in, especially when I'm proposing techniques that are supposed to help good gamers stay in gaming. So I'm pulling for you. :-)

What did you think about it? Were you excited. Remember that Bangs have to be interesting to all the players including yourself. If you're not excited, they you can't sell it either. If other players aren't interested, they'll only wish that you'd get to a scene with them in it. To the extent possible, make Bangs appeal to everyone.

To be really precise, that wasn't a Bang. It was a lead up to one. As such, it can be cool and fun, but it shouldn't have been the point. The real question is what's to be done afterwards. Did you get to that part?

Actually scratch my comment about doing the voyage thing. After further reading here, I think it would be better if I try to extend stuff on the relationship map, no matter how difficult that might be for some characters...


I am going to get together with my players and try to figure out what exactly they want and then while we take a break for Simpsons (::twitch::) write up some appropriate bangs.

Jesse D.

doubtofbuddha wrote: Ahhh, that might be part of the problem. This is the first time I have gamed with two of the people. One I have only gamed with for a few months (and she hasn't really had anything particular to her character bubble up to the surface, instead mostly focusing on the main plotlines everyone else is involved with.) The two players who I am planning on bringing over from this group are also those who I have been playing with since about April.

Ahh... see I was making the same assumption you were. Which is probably part of the reason that the game got tripped up. I tried to correct that by posting a thread on my group message board about what they wanted, but responses were few and kind of vague.

Right. Well, its quite possible that I won't be continuing with most of the group. In fact, I think that the next session or two will be tests in this regard. I have a pretty good idea of what I am going to do tommorow, abd hopefully it will turn out better than my previous sessions.

Well we pretty much got to all of the decision making points and I thought that they, for the most part turned out pretty well.

It seems that the PPH had fun with interacting with the two guys who had info but because of the fact that other people had more time due to their extended contests she seemed annoyed because she didn't have enough face time. (Plus her scenes didn't end up taking very long).

P. 66, HeroQuest - You use extended contests when the outcome of the struggle is important, to generate suspense for the players, or when the narrator wants a back and forth struggle.

Both the CWDBG and the ES seemed to enjoy their encounters a bit, though the CWDBG is kind of annoyed her character doesn't quite fit her original concept. If this continues we will probably move her to the point where she has passed being a follower of Babeester Gor.

Hmmmm, but if we aren't using the system then why bother using the system in the first place? I mean why not just handle it in a free form manner rather than throwing in any sort of mechanics in the picture if it is all about player choices?

P. 60 HeroQuest - When the story throws up a challenge, you pit one of your hero's abilities in a contest.

Sometimes the action is something that "no self-respecting hero would ever fail at." In these cases, the narrator simply declares an automatic success, without any need for a contest.

For example, I ran the situation where the CWDBG was dealing with Sabunda as an extended contest.

Sure.
Though I have only gone to Gen Con once, for the prmire of 3e. ;)

I have decided that with my next "adventure" I am going to send them on an ocean voyage in pursuit of the fleeing Sabunda and associates.

The rest of it is going to be a series of encounters that show case some of the flexibility and mythic adventure that can arise from the Glorantha setting.

I do admit that I am kind of worried about annoying the other players. They are my friends after all. :-/

Well, we will see what happens. I could probably stand running HeroQuest with some of my old style. Its mostly just d20 that I am no longer able to tolerate.

I think the tomb was one of the best parts of the game. Though we had to get over the silliness of having the complex perform actions designed to confused the players. But we got around it and the player got really into it too, describing what he did in relation to his point bids. So we got pretty interactive and the whole contest went by in a reasonable amount of time.

Mike Holmes wrote: AAAIIIIIEEEE!
Never, ever, ever, ever, fail to use the system as it's designed. Part of this method of play is that the dice fall where they may, and the GM never fudges or does anything against the rules. In fact, do you have a GM screen or something? Chuck it now. Make all rolls in the middle of the table where everybdy can see them. This is an important player trust issue.

Mike

Scripty wrote:

For the record, I don't use a GM screen. I hope this hasn't veered too far off topic.

Scott

Alright, another session passed.

Only three players were present. One was absent for not discernable reason (she didn't call or anything) and the other had already told us she was going to be in Chicago. However, overall the game was a success in that the players enjoyed themselves. However I am not sure how much I was able to succeed in constructing a "Narrativist" experience.

Basically I got together with the three players and took turns discussing with them what exactly they wanted out of the game. It turns out one of the players (the DHPN) is pretty much a gamist. I pointed out he probably wouldn't have very much enjoyment from the game as I was running it but he insisted he continue trying it out anyway. ::shrugs::

The EFS couldn't really give me much beyond that she was amoral and she wanted revenge on the High Queen. ::sighs:: I am really not sure what to do about her. She has expressed a bit of interest in investigation, combat, and using her feminine wiles to her advantage but none of it seems really bang-worthy.

The ES said he wanted his character to explore the limits of his timidness and eventually come to terms with whether or not he wanted to be a hero or let his timidness overwhelm him. He also wanted to explore the idea of magic related to shaping and tapping into his own personal myths. Considering he has yet to even use the myth powers he has (no combats involving him yet), I am not sure how fast that is going to work.

So based on this information I did my best on writing up two bangs for each of them. Unfortunately I ran out of time on the EFS.
ES:
Visited by Ahaelik who hires him to research the myths of Wenelia. He relates stories of his travels and encourages him to go out and explore the world.

Rahal invites him to court and offers him a position in her library. This offers him security but will probably prevent him from becoming a real hero or going on a real adventure.

DHPN:
Neara asks him to engage in a ritual that would allow him to gain more influence with the Esrolian Red Earth faction at the cost of putting him in a humiliating role. This would cause a conflict between his sense of cultural superiority (engaging in this inferior Esrolian ritual presided over by women!) as compared to his desire for power and influence.

Unsur begs him for aid in regards to his whole imprisonment situation. Will he help his friend at the risk of angering Neara.

EFS:
Neara sends Lisith after Ahaelik in order to find Sabunda. Will she be able to overcome any personal desire she may have for Ahaelik (he is damn sexy) in order to do her duty and move forward towards her goals of revenge?


How this played out in the game is this:
I started off with the Unsur situation. The DHPN basically denied him and told him he was a disgrace and deserved any punishment he recieved and torture on top of it. He seemed vaguely interested in acquiring any help that Unsur could give him but did not find any of Unsur's offers to be worthwhile.

Afterwards I had the ES meet up with Ahaelik and had interaction go back and forth between the two of them. The player of the ES did a pretty job of playing his character in the face of Ahaelik's bravado and combination of encouragement for adventure combined with a request for information.

At the same time I had the EFS meet with Neara and eventually find her way to the library where the ES was meeting with Ahaelik. (I did a simple contest to determine how long it took). The end result was Ahealik and the EFS meeting up in the office of the ES. The ES vacated the premisis when things started to get ugly and ran to get help with a marginal defeat. So the librarian-priestess (I just used the one I wrote up above) and the guards did not show up until after Ahaelik was defeated. I did use that as a means to ensure that the victory was only marginal. They had him where he couldn't escape but the arrival of the guards changed the situation. After some negotiation eventually the EFS agreed to take any conflict outside and left. Ahaelik thanked the ES, answered a few of his questions and asked for him for help in escaping. This resulted in a contest between the ES's ability to find a way out and the EFS's ability to watch the building. Once again a marginal victory for the ES, and it allow Ahaelik a head start in fleeing. the EFS rolled well in the subsequent contests and was able to capture him.

When she was returning she had a brief encounter with the DHPN before handing Ahaelik off to Neara.

The DHPN was asked to participate in the ritual and after some brief hesitation he agreed. I also used this as an oppurtunity to explain some of the stuff about the Year King. Afterwards he decided he wanted to try to seduce the priestess who was helping to train him for the ritual, and he did reasonably well. I am not sure what the ramifications are going to be for this, but he used a hero point to buy a relationship with her.

The ES used some time to research information and used this time as an oppurtunity to purchase relationships both with the Temple Library and the Queen's Library.

I fast-forwarded a few days and sent the EFS to get Sabunda at Leera's. The ES was also there (he was supposed to meet Ahealik there) and the EFS came over there and threatened him. Sabunda managed to avoid notice and conversed with the ES. He told her about the EFS, and she proceeded to flee out of the building. He then decided to leave to but the EFS stopped him outside and then tried to physically intimidate him. That failed and he was able to call enough attention to himself that she let him leave. He went to Rahal's castle and requested the ability to stay there a few nights with the librarians and "inadvertantly" revealed that Neara was about to seize Sabunda. Queen Rahal's men sent a Humkati Warrior (2w2 Warior and 17 Initiate) and some men-at-arms (17 warrior) to recover her.

The EFS was able to successfully wait out Sabunda and attacked Sabunda when she tried to sneak her way back to get her stuff from her room. A battle ensued and they were able to defeat Sabunda but only barely. She agreed to go but insisted that she keep her spear. The EFS agreed.

They were able to intercept her but I allowed the DHPN to show up (he has been itching for some combat) and I followed that with an extended contest fight. It went back and forth a few times but ended with the Humakti Warrior being the last man standing and making off with Sabunda. Thats where I ended.

I am thinking next session I am going to up the tension and stakes in the city and that things are going to, thanks to the actions of the PCs, go one step closer to a break down of the Warm Earth - Red Earth collaboration in Rhigos. I may even have it break into open battle and perhaps a coup.

My main problem is nothing that happened seemed all that bangy. Am I correct or incorrect in this assumption? I am also not sure what I did differently that changed the level of enjoyment in the session. Maybe it was the increase in player interaction, even if some of it was adverserial in nature. Two of the players (both of which were present) expressed some annoyance over one of the players who was absent, so that may have increased their enjoyment.

Also, how often is it appropriate to give out hero points? I ask because I gave out like 4 or 5 (I do not remember exactly) at the start of the session and by the end 2 of the 3 players has used all of them on bumps or gaining/improving abilities? Should I give out more next session or just wait until I complete a particular "arc?"

I will post more tommorow (and respond to the above posts) but for now I need sleeeeeep.

doubtofbuddha wrote: However, overall the game was a success in that the players enjoyed themselves. However I am not sure how much I was able to succeed in constructing a "Narrativist" experience.

Basically I got together with the three players and took turns discussing with them what exactly they wanted out of the game. It turns out one of the players (the DHPN) is pretty much a gamist. I pointed out he probably wouldn't have very much enjoyment from the game as I was running it but he insisted he continue trying it out anyway. ::shrugs::

The EFS couldn't really give me much beyond that she was amoral and she wanted revenge on the High Queen. ::sighs:: I am really not sure what to do about her. She has expressed a bit of interest in investigation, combat, and using her feminine wiles to her advantage but none of it seems really bang-worthy.

The ES said he wanted his character to explore the limits of his timidness and eventually come to terms with whether or not he wanted to be a hero or let his timidness overwhelm him. He also wanted to explore the idea of magic related to shaping and tapping into his own personal myths. Considering he has yet to even use the myth powers he has (no combats involving him yet), I am not sure how fast that is going to work.

I started off with the Unsur situation. The DHPN basically denied him and told him he was a disgrace and deserved any punishment he recieved and torture on top of it. He seemed vaguely interested in acquiring any help that Unsur could give him but did not find any of Unsur's offers to be worthwhile.

Afterwards I had the ES meet up with Ahaelik and had interaction go back and forth between the two of them. The player of the ES did a pretty job of playing his character in the face of Ahaelik's bravado and combination of encouragement for adventure combined with a request for information.

At the same time I had the EFS meet with Neara and eventually find her way to the library where the ES was meeting with Ahaelik. (I did a simple contest to determine how long it took). The end result was Ahealik and the EFS meeting up in the office of the ES. The ES vacated the premisis when things started to get ugly and ran to get help with a marginal defeat. So the librarian-priestess (I just used the one I wrote up above) and the guards did not show up until after Ahaelik was defeated. I did use that as a means to ensure that the victory was only marginal. They had him where he couldn't escape but the arrival of the guards changed the situation.

After some negotiation eventually the EFS agreed to take any conflict outside and left. Ahaelik thanked the ES, answered a few of his questions and asked for him for help in escaping. This resulted in a contest between the ES's ability to find a way out and the EFS's ability to watch the building. Once again a marginal victory for the ES, and it allow Ahaelik a head start in fleeing. the EFS rolled well in the subsequent contests and was able to capture him.

When she was returning she had a brief encounter with the DHPN before handing Ahaelik off to Neara.

The DHPN was asked to participate in the ritual and after some brief hesitation he agreed.

I also used this as an oppurtunity to explain some of the stuff about the Year King.

Afterwards he decided he wanted to try to seduce the priestess who was helping to train him for the ritual, and he did reasonably well. I am not sure what the ramifications are going to be for this, but he used a hero point to buy a relationship with her.

I fast-forwarded a few days and sent the EFS to get Sabunda at Leera's. The ES was also there (he was supposed to meet Ahealik there) and the EFS came over there and threatened him.

They were able to intercept her but I allowed the DHPN to show up (he has been itching for some combat) and I followed that with an extended contest fight. It went back and forth a few times but ended with the Humakti Warrior being the last man standing and making off with Sabunda. Thats where I ended.

I am thinking next session I am going to up the tension and stakes in the city and that things are going to, thanks to the actions of the PCs, go one step closer to a break down of the Warm Earth - Red Earth collaboration in Rhigos. I may even have it break into open battle and perhaps a coup.

My main problem is nothing that happened seemed all that bangy. Am I correct or incorrect in this assumption? I am also not sure what I did differently that changed the level of enjoyment in the session.

Maybe it was the increase in player interaction, even if some of it was adverserial in nature. Two of the players (both of which were present) expressed some annoyance over one of the players who was absent, so that may have increased their enjoyment.

Also, how often is it appropriate to give out hero points? I ask because I gave out like 4 or 5 (I do not remember exactly) at the start of the session and by the end 2 of the 3 players has used all of them on bumps or gaining/improving abilities? Should I give out more next session or just wait until I complete a particular "arc?"

From the previous post

Mike Holmes wrote: Cool, but the problem is that these things seem to really only be appealing to the player's experiencing them. That is, if the other players were into the other player's characters and what was happening to them, you'd get less complaints about not enough face time.

Then it's possible you're not putting the extended contests in the right places.

Alternate Paths?

OK, to be more direct, are you coming this year? So we can do a demo game?

Am I glad you didn't do this.

Instead, use the "flexibility and mythic adventure" of Glorantha, to make the character's issues more important.

Hmmm. Sillyness? Could you explain what you mean? Is this something about how the system handled it, or how you made up the contest?

Here's me frowning. The important thing is having fun. Narrativism is simply one way to accomplish that. There is no imperative beyond having fun. Rather, if you're having fun, you're doing it right. There's no special magical outcome of Narrativism other than players having fun making up stories about their characters.

Interesting. Does that player seem to be having a good time? When you say that the player is a Gamist, I assume that you mean that he indicated that he liked accumulation of power, or addressing challenges, or somesuch? Just because a player likes these things doesn't mean that they can't like other modes as well. That is, are you sure that you've determined a preference, and not just what the player is used to? Did they specifically say that they didn't like creating themes or something? Because if they say they want to continue, and they seem to be doing OK, then that's probably more telling than any statement about what they like.

To be clear, when I say that the GM doesn't predetermine the plot in this mode of play, that doesn't mean that the players do instead. Nobody does. Nobody at all should have a precise view of where things are going. All decisions in this mode can be decided on the spot. That doesn't mean that players can't plan and such...just that play is a combination of your input and theirs. No single participant should have total control over what's going on. So it seems to me that what she's given you is the perfect information.

Revenge - have some point at which she gets the opportunity to avenge herself, but at some potential cost. This is a classic Bang style, and maybe the easiest. Find two things that the character wants a lot, and make them decide between the two. Doesn't have to be fateful (they don't have to lose either thing permenantly), but the choice should make a statement about what the character is about. Further, if the queen dies or is damaged politically or something by the PC, so much the better. No plot immunity for NPCs. They only exist to make the PCs more interesting.

2. Investigation - give opportunities to chase multiple forms of information. The choice of which to follow says things about the character's priorities.

If the player thinks, "Heck, it's a game, I'll just have my character do anything in bed to get what she wants," then the first time she has unprotected sex, she gets pregnant. No way to avoid value statments at that point. :-)

You don't have to rush, if you don't want, but, OTOH, bring things to a head with an appropriate Bang whenever you like. Give him moments where he has the choice to play it safe, or to go for the gusto. Have his Myth powers activate themselves. They're written as a follower, right? Makes it fully within your mandate as GM to play the mythic character. Have it show up the first time he chickens out as a sort of slap in the face. Use the one issue to heighten the other.

However, in the name of mixing things up more, have NPCs like Unsur appeal to PCs that they haven't before, instead - they don't belong to the first PC they interact with in any way. In fact, if you really want interaction, have Unsur have something that PC B wants, and will give if PC B convinces PC A to help. The neat thing about this is that the real point of decision will occur sometime during the negotiation between the players as PC A gives PC B his price. For maximal effect, make sure that PC A has something to offer that impacts PC B's issues. That way you get a couple of thematic statments simultaneously.

All that said, not every scene has to be climactic. If this seems like a good scene building up the issue of ES's hestancy, then it's all good. Which it sounds like as a lead in to the next Bang. So, though it might not have been a Bang, precisely, it may well have been an effective scene.

Hmmm. I just want to be clear here. Did you roll for the Ahaelik vs. priestess/guards? I won't say it's a bad thing to do if you did, but, again, the rules say that the resolution system is for "heroes" meaning the PCs. That is, you never have to roll to see what happens to anyone else - just make up what happens. Again, that's in the rules.

I sense a rescue operation! can't have rescues unless somebody gets caught in the first place. :-)

Oh, and at this point, I sense that you were off of the prepared Bang material and winging it? I certainly hope so. Again, at some point, things in play should just start taking on a life of their own and Bangs can just be held in reserve for moments when players aren't driving their characters toward some goal (or to complicate those drives).

I loved this bang. The player was male, right? Great call in general. OTOH, you have to balance things out to make this a good Bang, and you had a good opportunity to do so. If he seems too eager to do it, then you could reveal more and more humiliating elements as the ritual approaches. Until you can really see the player thinking about it. That said, you have to be careful here not to be seen as manipulating. So your version was probably just great. Did they smile while hesitating?

Initiative from the player! Awesome. The neat thing is she's already "on the Map" as it were. She's related to Rahal as a priestess involved in her ritual. In fact, if you want to make it even more pointed, then say that she's made some vow of chastity (assuming that makes sense for the cult) that she's forsaken. Not neccessarily for the PC (if she had that vow as an Ability, she probably would have used it against the PC in the contest), but just in general. The point is that someone will discover the indiscretion, and that will result in trouble for the PC or the relationship. Then it's time for the PC to re-examine the relationship.

Sounds like some cool framing. :-)

Sounds like some cool fallout from that.

Hmm. I'd think that with a 2W2 that it would be really surprising if anyone else came out on top (the characters are starting characters, no?). There's a small danger here in that you may have had that character usurp a moment where another character could shine as a protagonist. That is why wasn't it, say, the EFS that got to come out on top?

OTOH, perhaps I'm reading in too much. I can certainly see the setup as ripe for action. Another character to rescue, perhaps, in Sabunda

Consider that some of the character's stories may actually be resolved next session. Seems short, but why not? Can mean death, or simply completing the character's goals, anything that finishes up with the character's storylines. If this is a "test" game, it may be very appropriate to see if you can drive for some resolutions in the next session.

That seems like a contradictory statement. But, like I said before, less PCs can often mean better play for everyone. In any case, the first point is still the most important. If the players had fun, you're doing things right. Who cares if it fits some precise definition of some mode of play or something. Often instinct is your best guide. The stuff I'm giving here are hints intended to produce more reliable fun, but are only one of many proven methods. So go with what's working.

doubtofbuddha wrote:
I think you both misunderstood me. I was asking that question not because I wanted to veer off from using the system (I REEEEAALLY like the HeroQuest system), but because I thought that what Mike was suggesting was that I ignore the system.

doubtofbuddha wrote:
Also I have some questions about the relationship map?
When is it a good time to expand on the relationship map?
You warned against that in a previous post, but I don't see how you can avoid that if you are running a continuing campaign. (Which all of my players have expressed a desire to do. They want to be involved in long-term stories with their characters)

What happens when the people in the current relationship map have exhausted their usage (either through death or otherwise. I think Unsur might be leaving soon). Plus some members of the relationship map haven't really been involved at all (Leera, the ship captain, etc.)

Hey Scripty, thanks for the clarification.

Also I want to apologize for not getting back to you about Midnight d20 yet. :)

Its good stuff and it will be useful if I ever get around to converting the Diamond Throne/Arcana Unearthed over to HQ. (Though I have found myself to be very, very happy with HeroQuest. Especially the Lunar Empire material. yummmm)

As a further question about relationship maps, how do you integrate more fantastic events and creatures into the map and bangs? It seems almost like they don't really have a place in the human personality-drive scenario design techniques of a narrative game.

Oh, and you are right about it changing your gaming style. I am starting up my Arcana Unearthed game again and am already thinking in terms of bangs and how I can translate my existing cache of NPCs over to a relationship map. Actually, now that I think about it, doing that would probably aid in my being able to bring the campaign to a close. Hmmm....

Jesse Dean

doubtofbuddha wrote: As a further question about relationship maps, how do you integrate more fantastic events and creatures into the map and bangs? It seems almost like they don't really have a place in the human personality-drive scenario design techniques of a narrative game.

Jesse Dean

Does that help?

doubtofbuddha wrote: Well I am having enough difficulty managing to make the scenes appeal to the players that are involved in them. Making them appeal to everyone is going to be a bit farther down the way. Though making other characters present and involved seems to help.

I think making the fight against the Humakti and his warriors was the right decision, as they were obviously amping for the fight, and the Humakti's active death and combat magic (he was wise enough to activate it before approaching the PCs) gave him the set of dramatic momentum that almost required that it be an extended contest (Come to think of it I probably should use him again. With more detail)

I also went so far as to ask each of the players individually before the game what sort of scenes they wanted to have for their character in the future and where they wanted their characters to go.

Also, I don't really see very much of a point in me going to cons anymore. Gen Con 2000 was fun, but they don't hold much of an appeal for me anymore. I prefer campaign play to one-shots, and it seems that most of the seminars aren't really anything I am interested in anymore. I get more out of web sites like this one than anything I would get by attending a convention.

If there is one main failing I can see in my current game is that I haven't played very much on the "fantasy" elements of Glorantha.

It was probably how I made up the conest. Most of the Scholar's half of the contest involved him attempting to decipher the murals and the murals bidding to attempt to confuse him. I think I could have framed the contest better, but I honestly can't think of any way I could have better handled the complex's actions. Oh well.

Of course. However, I would also like to master Narrativism within the confines of it.

He said he was interested in overcoming the obstalces set up by the GM, killing monsters, and acquiring the loot that comes about from killing said monsters. He also mentioned a level of interest in MUSH's but said that basically he was interested in pursuing the themes commonly supported by the classical D&D mode of gaming. He expressed a disinterest in developing internal conflicts or taking his character very much beyond the superficial level.

Of course. I am having difficulty coming up with something else she values though. It seems that she is largely driven by revenge with an occassional desire for physical gratification thrown in.

Thus far mostly it has been Neara sending her to get someone and the ES doing it, with the decision making proccess coming about in how she choose to go about things. She has questioned Neara about how a particular mission will move her towards her goals. I have been considering having Neara do something corrupt and send the ES to do some sort of dirty work, but I am not sure if that is in Neara's character. It would be fun to see if the ES just goes along with it or not though.

Well... see the thing is we have a puma person hunter, who is only fertile one time a year, the vingan who has given her fertility to Vinga while she is a warrior so that sort of thing wouldn't happen, and a former Babeester Gori, who no longer has the ability to do anything like that.

Especially since he specicially mentioned that he currently doesn't have much control over said myth powers.

Actually, while reading this post it occured to me that what I could do is have it so that Unsur has information on the PPH's father. He isn't willing to give it up unless she can get him out of prison. He will mention that the DHPN has the ability to help him and she (who has a relationship with him thanks to sexxors in previous sessions) can decide what she wants to do. Does she lead a jail break? Does she try to have the DHPN help? Something else?

Indeed. I also noted that the player's actions in support of the Warm Earth faction lead nicely to him being offered a position by Rahal.

None of the conflicts were entirely between NPCs vs. NPCs. In fact the only NPC vs. NPC conflicts I had was when I was trying to determine if Queen Rahal sent any warriors to aid Sabunda. (At that point I used a contested Member of Warm Earth faction vs. Neara's Influential in Rhigos and that was a simple contest) I did that because "I" didn't know what was going to happen and I figured that using the system was as good of a way as any to figure it out.

I am thinking that she is going to go back to her old bodyguard and beg forgiveness and help to rescure her husband. I think it will be a pretty interesting conflict. Does she hold onto her feelings of vengeance or does she reach out to her own humanity?

I could also see the scholar being approached, but I can't really see why they would. The EFS and DHPN are definitely out. THe PPH? Dunno.

You bet. I think that getting away from the designed bangs was a major stumbling block for me before. I mean I am used to winging it when I run d20 (I usually just create certain sorts of scenes or events that I want to present the playes with, stat out some NPCs and just run with it.) Its just when faced with this new, unfamiliar scenario design system I immediately moved more towards its constraints rather than the flexibility. I am just now reaching the point where I am able to move past the constraints.

Haha, no he wasn't eager, really. He kept on asking questions to his sidekick (Who he wisely gave 2w in Esrolian Customs) about the ritual as he was kind of worried Neara was making this up. He still is kind of leery over the whole symbolic sacrifice thing and is kind of worried that they might have an "accident" to get rid of him.

Quick note, the priestess serves Priestess Neara, not the Queen.

The DHPN rebuffed the Queen's offer but chose not to tell Neara about it. Oh and yes, she is chaste (she isn't married) and I had her make her roll her chaste trait as an opposition against his attempts to seduce her. He got a minor victory so I decided that was equivlant of "second base." I don't really see him getting involved in her as a love affair as its abit out of character. Though it would be entertaining to see her fall in love with him and see how he handles it. Hmm... Probably should detail her about before the next session.

Oh that scene was alot of fun. :) The player of the ES was thinking of taking Afraid of Lisith (the EFS) as a personality trait and its obvious they are starting to actively not get along IC.

I made a mistake. He had a 2w in his combat skill.
After modifications and augments she had the highest combat skill with 13w and the Humkati had 12w.
It was a reeeeally close battle, but I had wanted one after the previous relatively easy wins on the part of the ES.
I wanted this encounter to be a challenge.

This was originally seen as a test game, yes, though I have made some noises (that I no regret) about having it continue. I am regreatting that now. But we will see what happens. The only story I can easily see ending next session is the PPH, as she finds her father. However, I could easily extend that by having complications arise as she finds him. (Mental note, make father character)

Also I have some questions about the relationship map?
When is it a good time to expand on the relationship map?
You warned against that in a previous post, but I don't see how you can avoid that if you are running a continuing campaign. (Which all of my players have expressed a desire to do. They want to be involved in long-term stories with their characters)

What happens when the people in the current relationship map have exhausted their usage (either through death or otherwise. I think Unsur might be leaving soon). Plus some members of the relationship map haven't really been involved at all (Leera, the ship captain, etc.)

Scripty wrote: But they were all related to the relationship map. I treated them as any other entity on the map. Sometimes this is hard, but it's not impossible to bring lines between a Serpent Woman and a Satanic Corporate Exec. Either the Exec owes her for a service rendered, he's sleeping with her, or (eww) he's a blood relation. Fantastic creatures just make the relationship map MORE interesting, IMO.

doubtofbuddha wrote: Another question, how big was this particular relationship map? It looks like it would be pretty big.

Mike Holmes wrote: One thing that I should mention is that, according to Ron's original ideas about Relationship Maps, the only thing that counts as a relationship are those of sex and blood. That is, if the character isn't related closely to another, or sleeping with them, the tie between the characters isn't properly a "relationship" for purposes of this technique.

Mike

Hello,

Mike, you always confuse people about relationship maps.

Scott, here goes.

1. Make the maps with ties of kin and sexual contact.

2. Other characters should then be classified in two ways:

a) into "extensions" of the characters on the map (which I draw as little "sticks" off a given bubble; this isn't discussed in The Sorcerer's Soul)

b) bona fide further relationships on the map with ties and bubbles of their own; just label the bubbles ("works for") or whatever.

3. Avoid all ties defined by an *emotion alone* or by *events.* Those should merely be present in your notes about the characters. The dotted lines in one of the maps in The Sorcerer's Soul was intended to be present as such a note, not as "valid" map stuff.

And for pete's sake, don't confuse ties on the map with any permissible or potential interactions among characters. That's how people mis-read my concept all the time. The map is only part of the notes and concepts one uses for prepping and running; it's not intended to be a limiting factor ("these ties only") for purposes of play.

Best,
Ron

Thanks for clearing that up, Ron. I was more thinking that I had gotten it wrong and (apparently) I did have it a little mixed up.

One question, though, what is meant by "extensions"?

Would these be artifacts or organizations that belong to the character? Traits or attributes? I don't think I've heard of extensions before.

Scott

Hi Scott,

"Extensions" isn't a technical term. It's very, very, very easy.

Take a relationship map ... um, OK, Gorhund the bard is sleeping with Ingalda, the chief's wife; the chief is Thurri, and his son by Ingalda is Rald.

So far so good. Now, let's say there are two other characters we want to consider in the scenario, Anni who's Ingalda's maid; and Fergus Black, the chief's main hatchet-man. Neither is related to any other character we care about and has no sexual connection with them either.

Fine. At this point in the prep, I'm all about Fergus, who's got a [fill-in-the-blank] and who's twice been nearly outlawed because he [fill-in-the-blank]'d. What I'm saying is, I'm looking forward to playing this guy as an NPC.

Is he on the map? Sure - just draw a line to him from Thurri, label it "hatchet man" or something like that.

But Anni doesn't really grab me especially; in fact, she's in there just because the picture I found that I wanted to use for Ingalda includes a maid kneeling next to her chair. So all I do is draw a little line off of Ingalda like a little twig or something, and label it "Anni/maid."

None of this has anything to do with what happens in play. For all I know, by the end of the first session, a player-character will have married Anni and sworn to return her to her people, and another will have assassinated my prime-cut favorite NPC Fergus. I haven't the faintest idea.

All I know is that I now have a couple of other characters on the map, drawn and labeled in such a way that it's useful.

Best,
Ron

Great. Thanks for explaining that, Ron. I'll definitely be using it on my next R-Map.

Scott

Mike Holmes wrote:

Why hog that all for yourself. Do this a lot and your job becomes easier and easier until you're just the facilitator with final say on arbitration.

Hmm. If you're sure everyone liked it then go ahead. You're sure that you're not just injecting your own PC into the game? What I mean is, if at all possible, have the PCs use that character, or defeat him, or somehow leverage his cool capabilities to look interesting themselves. The story is about the PCs, not that NPC.

Cool. Remember, ask for scenes, and conflicts, not for results of those conflicts.

This is what we call color. Do the exact same things, just color them differently. Have someone have a goal that's to complete a Hero Quest, needing one of the PCs to come along. Have guardians at temples become NPCs. Etc, etc.

I personally don't see why people have a cognative problem with this. But they do, so I guess I should try to be more understanding. The only thing that I can suggest is that, if people want some rationale, then say that it's the spirits of the thing that they're being confronted by. Maybe the ancestral spirits of the tomb are actually making it look like the mural is wrong, and the roll is to get it right. I dunno, do what you have to do. But it shouldn't feel silly at all.

But they still wanted to play? What would you attribute that to?

Look at the character sheet. Often you'll find something there that you hadn't seen before. What's the character's highest score? If nothing else, threaten to take that ability away. If it's, say, swordsmanship, then the other thing that they value is their right arm. How can you threaten that? Remember that demon above? Use some magic.

Sim think. What's in Neara's character is whatever you can plausibly get away with. Nothing is established until the player's see it. So, if it's more interesting for her to do something corrupt, and you haven't established something in-game that makes her unlikely to do it, she does it. If you need motivation, create some. Uh, her lover said do it or he'll leave her. People can change "character" for all sorts of reasons. Just make one up.

Perfect. Have them get pregnant anyhow. Then work out how it happened. Must be powerful magic, right? Must mean somebody wants this child badly, right? Means it'll be unexpected and really a problem, right? :-)

Especially since he specicially mentioned that he currently doesn't have much control over said myth powers.

Nice, very nice. Work on the plausibility angle, however. That is, make up some good backstory that explains why Unsur knows this information. If you use the same draw too many times across too many characters without working it out, the player will start to see that you're just moving the motive around. Hmmm. Did Unsur perhaps talk to whasisname about the information at the bar? Why would that have come up?

Nice. Pretty dramatic for the NPC, but really highlights the PCs decision. If the player doesn't really enjoy that scene of her boss crawling back, I don't know what to say. :-)

Cool. Hit it again, then with some rumor of it having gone wrong last time. But then up the ante on the other side at the same time. Fun, fun.

LOL. I love the afraid thing. That could go all sorts of places. And as it's definitely a Flaw sort of thing, give it to him for free (again per the rules, can't remember the page). Should help him with the decision. This is exactly what that rule is for, IMO. Anything that the GM thinks can be used against the PC a health amount of the time he should feel to give for no cost.

So you're telling me that the players are putting some pressure on you to continue? Hmm. That should be a good sign, no? As far as finishing the stories, put it in the player's minds that it's a possibility. Most of the time it'll be some player initiative that ends the story. They'll tell you that they'd prefer a death scene in one case, or that their attainment of a certain position is all they're interested in for the player. Whatever, it's usually best to leave it to the player.

The challenge here is to make the PCs getting grabbed by the new map plausible. There's nothing less plausible than a second group of people all latching onto a group of strangers at random after a first group had done so - too much coincidence. This can be accomplished in several ways.

Anyhow, you know your players better than I, and have a good grasp of the techniques involved. So what I would enjoy (and I think others, too) would be if you would post your second map to the site as you move to it - assuming that the game continues. What would be really good is if you could follow it with some commentary about why you made the decisions that you did. That would make this thread really educational.

Well I finished what will likely be the last game of this particular campaign. Two player's had likely ends to their character's stories, a third was fleeing the city, and the final character was planning on confronting and (trying to take out) Naera.

I honestly think that this session was probably the strongest of the three as a number of times I left each of the players thinking "What the hell am I going to do here?" and I was able to improve my ability to seemlessly bring people into various scenes. I also had points where people were suggesting that there character should show up and even going so far as doing rudimentary scene framing. :)

The CWDBG ended up giving into her vengeance and trying to kill Sabunda. After losing twice, the session ended with her sneaking up onto the ship so that she could kill Sabunda and anyone else who go in the way. Interaction with other PCs mainly revolved around her being on the opposite side of a battle with the PPH.

The PPH found her dad and was getting ready to leave the city on his ship (I made him the first mate on the ship that Unsur and the captain were on and Sabunda was leaving). Unsur refused to share any info unless she got him out and she went to the DHPN for help. He refused because it would be dishonorable. She was able to eventually weasel her way into convincing Unsur to give her the name of the ship that her father served on and was giving the EFS and the DHPN a way to get out of the city (via the ship).

The EFS was offered a chance to perform the (actual sacrifice) on the DHPN so that they could have the magical strength to properly launch a coup against the Warm Earth Faction. She thought a bit and decided her vengeance wasn't worth it, and refused. An assassin disguised as a priestess of Bavara came for her and, after she killed the assassin, she decided it was time to flee the city. First she went looking for Unsur to see if he had a way out of the city. He said he would if she helped him escape. She went looking for the DHPN first to see if he could help her get Unsur and found him at Leera's meeting with the PPH where she explained the situation to both of them. The PPH offered to let them flee on the ship her father was on. The EFS agreed but the DHPN refused and the session ended for the EFS with them planning on how to get out of the city on the boat.

The DHPN had the scene with the priestesses you suggested and ended up deciding to try to prove he wasn't incompetent by seducing her again. I found that kind of amusing. She admitted why she did it and he seemed to like the idea of her being a virgin. ::snickers::
Later on she came and told him about the plot against him and suggested he flee the city and take her with him. A little after that he found out the info the EFS had and decided he had to confront Naera as fleeing the city (even if it would save his life) would prove to be counter to his goals and his job. For him the session ended with him going to see if he could lure Naeara to a third party location and take her out.

So thats where I am currently at. The group is talking about whether or not they want to continue but I think that, with the new semester (and my expressed amivalence), it is unlikely to do so.

However I think that the players of this group that I am going to include in my group of four are looking forward to the HQ game, and I know that I am feeling more confident about both it and the players I am going to have in the game.

Once I have more information from the players I will start a new thread were I take the techniques I learned here and use them to start constructing the new game. Hopefully those of you who helped me here will be willing to help me improve my skills from running a short game in this style into a longer, more drawn out afffair.

Jesse, Mike, et al.:

This is one of the most instructive threads on the Forge for Narratvist role-playing, bar none. I just wanted to let everybody who participated know how helpful and, indeed, inspirational, this series of posts has been. When people ask for a practial "how-to" on using the techniques of scene framing, relationship maps, and fortune placement, this will be where I will send them. And of course, it shows HQ's strengths incredibly well. Kudos and thanks so much!

Special congrats and good luck to Jesse for navigating troubled waters so gracefully--it's always really great to read about a burning-out GM who gets the formula for fun and success with the right players and system.

--JB

First an answer to a couple of earlier questions:

Hmm...
How would you include events such as a flash flood into the whole bang-relationship map set-up?
I mean, it doesn't really ask a question for the PC to answer and it doesn't neccessarily have some sort of enemy force behind it?

Is this the sort of thing that you just don't include in a narrativist design or is there something I am missing?

It doesn't really seem she overly values anything. I think we might have to play some more before she forms attachments (or maybe she won't who knows. She is new to the entire gaming thing).

doubtofbuddha wrote: I honestly think that this session was probably the strongest of the three as a number of times I left each of the players thinking "What the hell am I going to do here?" and I was able to improve my ability to seemlessly bring people into various scenes. I also had points where people were suggesting that there character should show up and even going so far as doing rudimentary scene framing. :)

The CWDBG ended up giving into her vengeance and trying to kill Sabunda. After losing twice, the session ended with her sneaking up onto the ship so that she could kill Sabunda and anyone else who go in the way. Interaction with other PCs mainly revolved around her being on the opposite side of a battle with the PPH.

The PPH found her dad and was getting ready to leave the city on his ship (I made him the first mate on the ship that Unsur and the captain were on and Sabunda was leaving). Unsur refused to share any info unless she got him out and she went to the DHPN for help. He refused because it would be dishonorable. She was able to eventually weasel her way into convincing Unsur to give her the name of the ship that her father served on and was giving the EFS and the DHPN a way to get out of the city (via the ship).

The EFS was offered a chance to perform the (actual sacrifice) on the DHPN so that they could have the magical strength to properly launch a coup against the Warm Earth Faction. She thought a bit and decided her vengeance wasn't worth it, and refused.

The DHPN had the scene with the priestesses you suggested and ended up deciding to try to prove he wasn't incompetent by seducing her again. I found that kind of amusing. She admitted why she did it and he seemed to like the idea of her being a virgin. ::snickers::

So thats where I am currently at. The group is talking about whether or not they want to continue but I think that, with the new semester (and my expressed amivalence), it is unlikely to do so.

However I think that the players of this group that I am going to include in my group of four are looking forward to the HQ game, and I know that I am feeling more confident about both it and the players I am going to have in the game.

Once I have more information from the players I will start a new thread were I take the techniques I learned here and use them to start constructing the new game. Hopefully those of you who helped me here will be willing to help me improve my skills from running a short game in this style into a longer, more drawn out afffair.

Mike Holmes wrote: There's no trick to any of this, hence why I'm having trouble expressing myself. You just make some cool setting element outside of the humans the source of the conflict, or the means of delivering it. Just as if you'd used an NPC to do it.

Hmmm. New to gaming is actually just fine. Shy is another. Some players just refuse to commit. This is a problem for all modes of play, and hard to rectify if the player is stubborn about it. It amounts to not really wanting to engage in play.

So, did you feel a loss of ability to do anything that you wanted to? The fear that by opening up these responsibilities to others that you'll lose out on some part of the fun is just unfounded.

The CWDBG ended up giving into her vengeance and trying to kill Sabunda. After losing twice, the session ended with her sneaking up onto the ship so that she could kill Sabunda and anyone else who go in the way. Interaction with other PCs mainly revolved around her being on the opposite side of a battle with the PPH.

Who won?!? Just curious. :-)

How did she "weasel" it out?

Was the DHPN's player sweating? :-)

In other words, he lost? The player didn't spend a HP on it? :-)

It's too bad that there were things left hanging. OTOH, I think that some of the decisions could be left there from a literary POV. I mean, it's kinda cool that the one went off to face Neara and we don't know what happens. Kinda highlights the fact that it was the decision to go face the betrayer instead of fleeing that was really important - win or lose doesn't really much matter.

What happened to ES? Noshow? Did the Mythic Hero ever show?

Any final feedback from the players? If you call it, post their thoughts about that here, please.

Sounds good to me. A short game to get the feet wet with these new techniques, then you tighten up your group and head into an even better game. Couldn't really be much better, from my POV.

Looks like this thread is pretty much over and done with. I hereby declare it to be officially 'closed.'