Topic: Drug-cartels anyone?
Started by: Ingenious
Started on: 12/7/2003
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 12/7/2003 at 10:58am, Ingenious wrote:
Drug-cartels anyone?
Okay, here's the low-down on what I want my character's future to be.
He's currently, and forever will be most likely... and opium addict.
So, he's already gotten people to try it.. because a high is supposedly pleasureable(okay, I know it is, at least in the case with nicotine).. though withdrawal sucks and so-on. But he's gotten the feeling that he likes sharing his opium, except that it dwindles his stash quickly.
SOOOOOOOO....
He wants to start up a farm/cartel, which begs the questions: how much does land cost, where's the best place to set-up an opium farm(climate-wise)((most likely to be like columbia or brazil or afganistan)), how much would it cost to get peasants to farm this stuff, how many peasants per acre of farm? How many animals to plow the fields? What social classes are allowed to buy land?(Need to know so I can be disguised as a noble if need-be, complete with forged documents from a priest lol)
What would be the cost for initially getting someone to smuggle this, though I am told by my seneschal that I have enough for a big enough ship for 2-4 tons of opium... If peasants might revolt, how many thugs will I need to hire to beat them into submission? How much will all of the 'hush-money' amount to? Etc etc etc.
The goal of this cartel is to make enough money, buy enough land, and farm enough opium to make an even bigger profit.. so I can either build my own nation... or raise up a massive army and head for Stahl to avenge my father's ill-fated 'medieval custer's last stand'. Or both, depending on how Bill Gates-like I become. Hmmmmmm Opiumsoft....
I've come up with my own figures for some of this, from modern day.. and then converted them into TROS economics.(simple mathematics really)
I'm open to suggestions about most of this.
I'll post my figures should anyone feel like looking at the raw data.
-Ingenious
On 12/7/2003 at 1:12pm, Camillus wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
Ingenious wrote: Okay, here's the low-down on what I want my character's future to be.
He's currently, and forever will be most likely... and opium addict.
So, he's already gotten people to try it.. because a high is supposedly pleasureable(okay, I know it is, at least in the case with nicotine).. though withdrawal sucks and so-on. But he's gotten the feeling that he likes sharing his opium, except that it dwindles his stash quickly.
SOOOOOOOO....
You do know that opium is a depressant? It tends to make users sleepy and its pleasurable feelings come from its close relationship to naturally occurring substances in the human brain that assist with pain control and pleasure feelings. Addicts (as opposed to casual users) are not the sort of people who tend to do anything dynamic - like setting up a farm to make money from their interest.
He wants to start up a farm/cartel, which begs the questions: how much does land cost, where's the best place to set-up an opium farm(climate-wise)((most likely to be like columbia or brazil or afganistan)), how much would it cost to get peasants to farm this stuff, how many peasants per acre of farm? How many animals to plow the fields? What social classes are allowed to buy land?(Need to know so I can be disguised as a noble if need-be, complete with forged documents from a priest lol)
What would be the cost for initially getting someone to smuggle this, though I am told by my seneschal that I have enough for a big enough ship for 2-4 tons of opium... If peasants might revolt, how many thugs will I need to hire to beat them into submission? How much will all of the 'hush-money' amount to? Etc etc etc.
Opium grows best in temperate climates - so almost anywhere really as long as it's not too wet or dry :)
As to acquiring land that depends almost entirely on where you are and what social time period you're basing your game on. In some societies trade in land will be easy, in others there may be a need to obtain permission all the way up to the nations ruler…It depends entirely on the Seneschal’s Weyrth.
As to cost; well in medieval societies the usual price for a piece of land was between 20 and 50 times its gross annual income. Furthermore the new owner would probably have to swear fealty to a lord (unless the land was a true freehold - unlikely for all but the smallest areas) and obtaining his consent usually has to be paid for at a cost of a year’s gross income from the estate.
I have limited information about the income of medieval estates but from what I can find you could probably expect one village to produce wealth equivalent to about 48 gold coins a year. That means that the cost of buying that land would be somewhere between 960 and 2400 gold coins plus whatever other bribes and payments would have to be made (including payments to freemen on the estate for their consent as well - normally through the remission of service - at least a year but perhaps more).
Of course your main problem isn’t going to be the land it’s going to be the labour. Wheat, a staple crop, takes about 17 man days of labour to produce an acre of crop (41 per hectare). Not too bad, particularly as most of the workers have enough time to grow their own food and see to other needs and necessities. Opium, on the other hand takes 141 man days to produce an acre (350 per hectare), of which about 80 days (200 if you’re working in hectares) are just to harvest the stuff. That means you’re going to have to either buy in food and services for your workers, cut back on land used for opium or own two estates so that one can feed the other. Those kind of labour requirements mean slaves or paid freemen; no serf is going to owe his lord that much labour in a year and trying to get them to work it is likely to produce more trouble than it’s worth.
How much would all that work produce? Well an Afghan farmer using modern fertilisers and pesticides can produce a whopping 36lbs per acre (40 kg per ha). I’d guess that the kinds of farming techniques available on Weyrth are going to be less efficient, so say 24lbs per acre. If you get a holding of around 1500 acres you could expect perhaps to farm 200 acres a year with opium and produce 4800lbs.
The goal of this cartel is to make enough money, buy enough land, and farm enough opium to make an even bigger profit.. so I can either build my own nation... or raise up a massive army and head for Stahl to avenge my father's ill-fated 'medieval custer's last stand'. Or both, depending on how Bill Gates-like I become. Hmmmmmm Opiumsoft....
I've come up with my own figures for some of this, from modern day.. and then converted them into TROS economics.(simple mathematics really)
I'm open to suggestions about most of this.
I'll post my figures should anyone feel like looking at the raw data.
-Ingenious
One problem I see is that you’re thinking very much like someone from the 21st Century. In places like Weyrth the concept of a substance being illegal is probably very alien - smuggling is going to be to avoid tax not because owning the stuff's against the law.
Another thing to bear in mind is that the market for this will always be very small - only the idle rich will be able to use it and there are unlikely to be too many of them around.
Hope that helps
On 12/7/2003 at 10:45pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
So thats why you emailed me to ask which Weyrth nations were most like Afghanistan, Brazil or Columbia... :-)
Brian.
On 12/8/2003 at 1:56am, Ingenious wrote:
Mmmmmm opiates.
I use the term opium loosely, only because I knew historically of the existance of opium back then.. and it being semi-legal depending on what time period we're talking of. But I could very easily see my character branching out into other drugs... something maybe that has the effects of PCP/angel-dust... etc. Ride the white lightning hahahahaha....
And since someone posted about statistics.. I figured I could post mine here as a rebuttal.. so here it goes, and forgive the length of space this is going to occupy.
Modern prices of opium from Afganistan.(Before Afgan war, after Taliban ban on producing opium)
$200-300 per kilogram.
2.2 pounds per kilogram.
$90.9 - $136.36 per pound.(0.0909 to 0.13636 gold) to (0.00909 to gold)
$30 to ship a 70lb package 1400 miles
$0.0003 per pound per mile to ship
Therefore, shipping 1 ton of opium 1000 miles would cost $600.
(TROS equivalent of .6 gold)
Farm/stronghold set-up:
Stanislav has 19 gold. Half of this will be spent on the aquisition of land, the other half, on labor, hush money, a SMALL castle... etc.
So using the figures of $19000/2=$9500...divided by $23 an acre(low modern estimate for land in Brazil) amounts to 413 acres. Or 167 hectares I beleive, being that there are 2.47 acres in a hectare.
Using my figures of 11 pounds per acre a year for the yield...
average yield actually from what I found...
4543 pounds of opium would then be produced.
And at the low price for opium; $412,958.7 or 412 gold of GROSS profit is to be had. At the high price for opium, this amounts to $619,483 or 619 gold of gross profit.
And with the rest of the profit, I can do as I see fit with it, but most likey it will be to aquire more lands to farm more... to make more money.. etc etc. And I might be able to pass off as a noble so that *I* would be the Lord of the manor. Who knows.
Okay now that I put that to rest, let me say this... the book gave figures for converting gold into modern money, so I used the inverse of this to figure this all out. And I might have to smuggle the drugs due to the fact that not every place in Wyerth deems opium legal. Also mentioned were rich people and aristocratic types, 'only the rich can afford this stuff'... so I'd be selling it to Lords, ladies, counts, dukes, kings and queens, heads of state, etc etc... Which also works to my advantage because this can bring part of if not the entire PC party into my character's story line, all of us disguised as nobles...infiltrating a social class of big-wigs and maybe having a few of them becoming powerful allies, or enemies *shrug*.
-Ingenious
On 12/8/2003 at 9:19pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
I doubt that opium would be illegal anywhere. It wasn't made illegal in the RW anywhere until well after the time that parallels Wyerth. This is mostly because it was relatively expensive - not due to it being illegal, but instead because most everyone is dreadfully poor in a medieval society. You can't afford Opium if you barely have enough to eat. Meaning that the only people with enough money to get addicted would be the rich and powerful. Meaning that they'd have no reason to outlaw it.
Drugs only become illegal in places where ruling elites become concerned about the addicted members of the poor elevating crime levels. That sounds kinda Marxist, but it's pretty factual. The earliest I know of that opium was made illegal was in China just before 1800 when use had become epidemic. Well after the time period that Wyerth represents.
Mike
On 12/9/2003 at 11:22am, Camillus wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
I think what we have here is a clash of world views :)
I thought you were playing in a medieval world but it would appear from your reply that socially it is closer to ours. Could you clarify the sort of world your character inhabits so that I can comment further.
Cheers
On 12/9/2003 at 12:54pm, Paka wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
I've got to admit when I first saw this thread it made me uncomfortable and I wasn't going to take part. But I think I hae a suggestion that is some sort of creative input and so here it goes.
Rather than a modern style drug lord what if your charcter was the leader of a posse or cult or band of assassins? He could be a kind of evil, corrupting opium pusher, perhaps even worshipping some sort of religion that uses it as a dark sacrament.
I believe the word assassin comes from a cult of killers who would take hash before making their kills. Someone please correct me if I'm way off on that. You could read up on them and model your character's self-styled cult after that.
By doing this your character could stay more in the medieval mindset while still retaining some of that drug lord vibe.
Hope this helps, have fun gaming.
On 12/10/2003 at 1:00am, Ingenious wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
Okay, first things first Paka... the assassin idea also plays into my character beleive it or not, however... the worshipping of gods and such is not. This being that my character is an atheist. However, he could start a rag-tag group of cut-throats and so forth... but the reason for the drug cartel(modern terminology I know, sometimes even throws me off)... is so he can raise money.. in order to either start his own nation, or to pay for an army an go invade Stahl and avenge his father... or both.
Now, onto what Camillus asked me.. Yes it is a medieval setting, however the current town I am in has made opium illegal, possibly as to what was previously mentioned... would have been a spike in crime levels.
I should really stop using the word opium and replace it with the garden variety catch-all of 'drugs'. It does not really matter what he is pushing, farming, exporting, etc... so long as it makes a sizable profit for the use in my character's goals.
He wants a war, revenge, and redemption.
-Ingenious
On 12/10/2003 at 1:23am, Draigh wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
I would recommend stealing Stahlnish horses and selling them to Gelure, Cyrinthmere, or Oustenriech. Shit, sell 'em to anybody, and if you stole 'em, every penny's profit.
Forget about "legitimate business intrests", just rob them blind.
On 12/10/2003 at 3:16am, Ingenious wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
Yes, well... stealin Stahlnish horses is one thing... but stealing them and training them would make for even more profit. Zero cost, little cost in training... and much much more profitability :-D However, my character being from Stahl and such, having his own horse, and I don't know how he would take to this idea. However, should I buy another Stahlnish horse and breed the two of them, set up a horse-farm.. and train the off-spring.. the same profitability could be had, and it would be a legit-business with no risk for my character. Oooh. Ideas. Or buy more than one horse... etc etc.
I can't help but think about legit-businesses, because my character isn't exactly wanting to be caught at any point in his life. It would tarnish his 'good' name worse than his father had with his military snafu's.
Oh, and in this adventure.. Gelure has invaded Farrenshire. So after they get disposed of, they might expand northwards towards Stahl... so I don't know if my character would want to sell horses to a potential enemy..
Regardless I have 19 gold and am going to liquidate it into some type of profit-making asset.
-Ingenious
Thanks for the idea.
On 12/10/2003 at 3:26pm, Camillus wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
Ingenious wrote: Now, onto what Camillus asked me.. Yes it is a medieval setting, however the current town I am in has made opium illegal, possibly as to what was previously mentioned... would have been a spike in crime levels.
OK - this isn’t the right place to give an in depth overview of medieval societies and how they worked. There are though plenty of game related supplements out there that will give you the kind of information you need to build a realistic medieval society. You might try the Ars Magica main rules which has a small section on medieval life and has the advantage of being available as a free download from RPGnet. The best resource is probably Harnworld which is an excellent, stand alone, world for adventuring in but can be difficult to get hold of.
All that probably clues you in to what I’m going to be saying next: your scheme is not likely to work terribly well in a medieval society. There are a couple of reasons for this:
• Acquisition of land: you need a substantial amount of land to farm but getting your hands on it will not be easy. Land is power, almost all of the wealth generated in the medieval world came from the land and only someone in really dire straights would sell land that they own. Most people, however, don’t own the land that they live on - a lot of land is granted to others for a service that they owe the land owner. This is the basis of the feudal system, and what that means for you is that you have to persuade a lord to either sell you land that he owns (extremely unlikely) or to grant you the land in a feudal deal (by the way you don’t need to be a noble to be subinfuedated with land but you would still be under an obligation to provide knights and soldiers for service).
As I pointed out in my earlier post this is likely to be expensive, certainly much more than the 19 gold* your character has. You can’t, by the way, buy land in discreet pockets, you’re going to have to buy an estate and that is a substantial investment.
• Sale of the goods: the medieval period was not a cash rich one. Most people operated by a system of barter for goods, although of course money existed. This means that selling your goods for cash is going to be difficult, except to the very wealthy. There is also the problem that most people don’t live in cities, even the rich tend to live on the land that provides their income. Furthermore each family lives separately in its own manor and tend to be fairly self contained. That makes transporting your goods to the place of sale difficult, costly and very high risk; once word gets out that you have (a) a very profitable cargo and (b) a lot of cash every bandit for miles around is going to be making a beeline straight for you as you travel through the countryside from manor to manor.
You could of course just sell in the cities, but that’s not where the majority of the wealth is and you’re going to have to overcome the opposition of the local guilds to your selling - after all they exist to protect themselves against outsiders cutting into their profits. You’ve still got the issue that very few city dwellers will be able to afford what you’re selling and that you’re going to have to pay a substantial amount of tax every time you try and bring a load in. You’ve also still got the problem of moving your goods and cash around the countryside from city to city across dangerous areas inhabited by bandits who’ll gladly rob you the first chance that they get.
My advice would be to abandon the idea of a drugs empire in a medieval society and, if you want to make a profit and set yourself up for revenge take up banditry (or piracy - you own a ship don’t you?). This has the advantage of being more in keeping with the spirit of the era as well as being more romantic (Robin Hood anyone?) and less morally ambiguous.
I should really stop using the word opium and replace it with the garden variety catch-all of 'drugs'. It does not really matter what he is pushing, farming, exporting, etc... so long as it makes a sizable profit for the use in my character's goals.
How about calling it poppy or lotus? Good enough for Robert E. Howard good enough for me :)
He wants a war, revenge, and redemption.
-Ingenious
Don’t we all Brother, don’t we all…
*I think you’re overestimating the buying power of the gold coin - remember a destrier will cost you 40 gold. It looks to me that the gold coin on Weyrth is roughly the equivalent of a medieval English pound. If that’s the case a castle (I think you mentioned acquiring a small one in a previous post) would cost somewhere in the region of 3500 - 4000 gold (Aberystwyth castle, for instance, cost about £3850 to build)
Anyway hope that’s helpful.
On 12/10/2003 at 4:23pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
I believe the word assassin comes from a cult of killers who would take hash before making their kills. Someone please correct me if I'm way off on that.That's correct. The original term is thought to have been Hashishin, or users of Hashish (though there's some debate about this). There's a lot of Myth surrounding the cult, news of which was brought back to Europe first by the crusaders and later by Maro Polo. It may be true that they didn't use drugs at all. It's all really interesting, and I'd recommend to anyone reading up on this stuff.
As for the name of the drug, make it Ma Huang. A natural source of Ephedra. Take enough of that and you'll become a berzerker.
Mike
On 12/11/2003 at 5:10am, Ingenious wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
I'm liking the ephedra idea, but there's a few side effects I can see from it. Many athletes have died from ephedra related products, and some people in the military... so if you're doing any seriously hard physical activity.. you might die from it. However, this might be because the modern day ephedra is stronger, who knows. And the other side effect is that ephedra is an appetite suppressant is it not? Much like nicotine is, I beleive.
I'll have to research a bit more on that. But good idea anyways.
-Ingenious
On 12/11/2003 at 5:31am, Draigh wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
LMAO
Ok, this has officially become idiotic...
You're talking about a character who has a MAJOR flaw: Drug addiction.
I've known quite a few drug addicts in my day, and an extremely small percentage of them have any concern about how much of a risk their addiction is to their health. Sure, ephedra can kill you, but if you're riding into battle swinging a halberd on the back of a destrier, who cares if the shit you're snorting (or whatever) can make your heart explode.
Jesus man, try some perspective.
On 12/11/2003 at 6:12am, Draigh wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
Sorry to double post like this, but lest it slip in under the radar...
Take into account that junkies (people with major addictions) are rarely motivated to do anything other than feed their habit. Give a heroin junkie a weeks worth of smack and he'll camp on the shitter for a week solid. Give a cokehead a weeks worth of coke, and he'll snort enough to get geeked out and sit there, licking his lips 'til it's time to snort another rail and get geeked out again. Give a crackhead a weeks worth of crack and he'll smoke it all in one day and walk around in the parkinglot picking up pebbles till he comes down, then he'll probably try to rob you.
My main point here is that unless they're high, chronic and severe addicts are looking to get high, nothing else.
With that being said, unless your character is newly addicted (within the first week or so, it doesn't take much time for your body to fall all to shit), you're not very likely to be in good enough shape to fight effectively. Junkies can be highly motivated and quite dangerous, if they are coming down and think you've got something they can take. Punching them isn't a good idea because you're probably gonna break a bone or tooth, and they'll bleed on you... who knows what they've got? My point here is, they're generally weak and frail, though they have the "benefit" of feeling no pain when they're high.
I think your motivations for playing an addicted character are probably immature and you don't have enough real-world knowledge of drugs and addiction to portray an addicted character accurately.
No offense intended here, but honestly, grow up. This thread is immature.
Thank you in advance, G (who has done coke, pot, speed, lsd, E, 'shrooms, and other harmful things) *edit: I'm not bragging, this stuff can and will kill you, I've seen it. I've only listed these to lend credit to my above stated descriptions of junkies. /edit *
ps. Drugs are bad, mmkayyy?
On 12/11/2003 at 9:17am, Ingenious wrote:
Diagh you moron.
First off punk, let me point out a few things before you let your mouth write checks that your brain can't possibly even cash. And allow me to play my trump card. My character does indeed NOT have a MAJOR drug addiction. He has a MINOR one. He is not so addicted to his drug of choice to be using it every single HOUR. Once a DAY is enough for him. Much like ME in MY situation with nicotine. Once a day is enough. I don't go around smoking up a storm because I LIKE the effect of a high. In fact, with most drugs there is a tolerance built up over time to where it takes MORE and MORE drugs to get you high. You vacuous insignificant little worm, don't you realize that?(sorry, but I cant help flaming someone that calls me immature; hypocrite = me, since flaming makes someone immature). My character doesn't freaking care about what 'positive' effect it has on him, but as a PLAYER I DO YOU IDIOT!!!!! And I'm reasonably sure that the seneschal running this adventure would too.
He isn't a junkie, he's like a modern day ATHLETE with a slight drug usage problem.
And what(as a player), might you think is my logic to wanting to know the harmful side effects of the drugs? Because I want to know what the consequences of my actions as a player is on my character. And therefore what consequences the seneschal might be scheming up as he always does.
And you think that I don't know enough real-world knowledge on drugs, eh? Let me throw this down on your silly little empty skull.
Drug types:
OPIATES: CODEINE, used medically as an analgesic, atitussive, anti-diarrheal. Trade names: tylenol with codeine, Robitussin A-C. Street names, T-threes, schoolboy, syrup. Tracable 1-2 days. Short term effects, average dose...mild euphorea, relaxation. physical high drowsiness light-headedness, dry mouth, consitpation, urinary retention, nasuea. Short term, large dose: intense itching flushed skin, dizziness, sedation, confusion, nausea.. overdose symptoms: vomiting, restlessness, seizures, respiratory arrest. Long term effects: tolerance with chronic use. potential for dependency. Taken orally or injested.
HEROIN: no medical use. trade names: diacetylmorphine. street names: H, whiteboy, skag, junk. Tracable 1-2 days. Short term, small dose. Highly addictive, euphoria of first high, for some it is said to be unmatched. dry mouth, flushed skin, heaviness in extremities, depression of central nervous system. nausea or vomiting likely, same with constipation. A rush, followed by nodding out. May feel warm and detached. Short term, large dose: can lower breathing and heart rate to lethal levels, sedation. Overdose can result in unconsciousness, coma, or death from respiratory failure. Chance of overdose is increased when combined with alcohol and other depressants. Long term: Collapsed veins, infection of heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulitis, liver disease, pulmary complications(including pneumonia) constipation. Withdrawl symptoms are restlessness, muscle and bone pain, insomnia, diarrhea, vomiting, etc.
It is injected smoked or sniffed
MORPHINE: medically used for relief of pain, labored breathing, suppression of cough, diarrhea: traded as Roxanol, Duramorph, MS Contin, morphine sulfate. Street names: M, morf, dreamer, MS.. etc. Tracable 1-2 days. Short term, small dose: Primarily used on intensive care patients, Pupillary constriction, blurred vision, impaired night vision, suppression of cough reflex, slightly reduced respiratory rate, sedation, euphoria, relaxation, lethargy, mild anxiety or fear. Short term, large dose: Respiratory depression, somnolence progressing to stupor or coma, clammy skin, skeletal muscle flaccidity. Apnea, circulatory collapse, cardiac arrest, death. Long term effects: High potential for physical and psychological dependance. tolerance with chronic use. withdrawl includes irritability, perspiration, twitching, abdominal and muscle cramps, vomiting, diarrhea, fever, elevated blood pressure and heart rate. Cardiovascular collapse possible. It is injected, taken orally, smoked, or sniffed.
DEPRESSANTS: BARBITUATES: medically used as an anesthetic, anti-convulsant, sedative. sold as amytal, nembutal, seconal, phenobarbital. traceable 2-10 days. short term, small dose:similar to alochol intoxication, loss of inhibitions, depression of sensory cortex and respiration, decreased motor activity. drowsiness, sedation can cause fetal damage, varying moods, from relaxation to excitation. relief of tension. short term, large: unsteady walking, slurred speech, insomnia, headache, blurred vision, difficulty swallowing. weak tremors and rapid pulse. coma and death are possible often as a result of combining with alcohol. user can forget how much he's taken. Long term regular use may result in tolerance and dependency. symptoms of this mimic chronic alcoholism. withdrawal symptoms of anxiety, tremors, muscle twitching, dizziness, nasuea, distortion of visual perception, vomiting, convulsions and delirium, insomnia, abdominal cramps and rapid heart rate. withdrawal can be fatal. taken orally or injected.
STIMULANTS:
AMPHETAMINES: injected, orally, smoked, or sniffed. taken for ADHD, obesity, nacolepsy. sold as biphetamine, dexedrine. Street names, black beauties, crosses, hearts. traceable 1-2 days. causes increased mental alertness, confidence, reduced appetite, paranoia, aggression. feeling of being 'amped' headache, pupil dilation, increased heart rate and blood pressure. blurred vision, impaired speech, convulsions, twitching, irregular heartbeat, insomnia. can produce delirium panic and hallucinations particularly if taken in large doses over several days. prolonged use can lead to ulcers, damage to blood vessels, heart failure, etc. withdrawal ranges from fatigue, irritability and depression to severe craving, anxiety and psychotic reactions.
COCAINE: local analgesic. no trade names. called coke, crack, flake, blow, rocks.. etc. traceable 1-4 days. causes euphoria, mental alertness, accompanied by a sense of invincibility. increased heart-rate, blood pressure, temperature, and energy. dilated pupils, constricted blood vessels, decreased appetite. large doses can cause tremors, vertigo, muscle twitches, paranoia, may also lead to bizzare, erratic or violent behavior. can cause cardiac arrest, seizures, and respiratory arrest. Tolerance increases with use, high potential for dependancy, irritability and mood disturbances. restlessness, addiction, paranoia and auditory hallucinations. medical complications include: disturbances in heart rhythm, heart attacks, respiratory failure, strokes, seizures, headaches and abdominal pain. injected, smoked, or sniffed.
METHAMPHETAMINES: taken for ADHD, obesity, narcolepsy. sold as desoxyn, also called crank, crystal, glass, speed, chalk, meth, crystal meth, etc etc.. traceable 1-2 days. causes intense rush of euphoria, particularly when smoked or injected. larger doses required for each subsequent high. increased activity and energy, decreased appetite and need for sleep, increased respiration, increased heart rate and blood pressure. symptoms of overdose include restlessness, tremors, rapid respiration, confusion, hallucinations, panic, paranoia. Can cause irregular heartbeat, cardiovascular collapse, seizures, heart attacks, coma, and death.. Long term effects include sleep-deprivation.. possible neurotoxic effect, reduces dopamine transporters, can incur memory loss, psychotic behavior, potential cardiac and neurological damage. Injections can damage veins or cause thrombosis and abscesses. chronic use can lead to bizarre personality change and involuntary repetitive motion such as teeth grinding or eye rolling. withdrawal leads to depression and anxiety. injected smoked or sniffed
HALLUCINOGENS:
LSD: no medical uses. sold as lysergic acid, diethylamide, called acid, microdot, boomers, etc. linked to profound mystical experiences, often scary. abnormal sensory perceptions, dilated pupils and time distortion. may produce delusions and visual hallucinations including 'trails' also prolonged episodes that may resemble psychotic states. can lead to persistant psychosis and flashbacks. daily doses quickly become ineffective. can trigger underlying mental conditions and produce delusions, paranoia, panic attacks. no known withdrawal symptoms or physical dependancy. taken orally
PSILOCYBIN: originally used as a theraputic tool. these are 'shrooms'. produces waves of giddiness and elation. described as more natural than acid trips. mild nausea, pupil dilation, may feel cold. indigestion, vomiting possible but rare, significant mental and emotional discomfort possible. Not psychologically habit forming. taken orally
CANNABIS: relief of pain, glaucoma, and nausea(used medically in california) sold as cannabis sativa, or cannabis indica. called herb, pot, weed, hash, reefer, and so on... produces relaxation and confusion, increased interest in visual phenomena. increase in heart rate, red eyes, cotton mouth. can impair motor skills. increase in appetite i.e. the 'munchies' as some refer to it. large doses can cause fatigue, panic or paranoia, a joint spiked with pcp/angel dust may cause hallucinations, coma, and death. long term use can lead to respiratory problems, psychological dependency may develop. claims of permanent brain damage and impaired memory as a result of long term use or abuse are insufficiently documented.
Now then, I didn't feel like noting the club drugs and such because A. that's alot more typing to do and B. I'm tired.
Ah hell, at least I'll note that ecstacy can contain PCP, ketamine, paramethoxyamphetamine, methamphetamines, dog worm pills, and prescription drugs like dextromethorphan. Also can be adulterated with alot more shit.
Oh, and Draigh... I hope you have a big enough crowbar to fit into that giant mouth of yours so you can pull your foot out of it, and THEN you can kiss my ass.
-Ingenious
On 12/11/2003 at 10:21am, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
Guys, cool it. Don't make me close the thread.
We don't have flame or insult wars here, if you want to do that, go do it on someone elses forum. And I'm not interested in "he started it", "no, he did". The insults stop now or the thread does.
Brian.
On 12/11/2003 at 10:37am, Ian.Plumb wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
Hi,
Paka wrote: I believe the word assassin comes from a cult of killers who would take hash before making their kills. Someone please correct me if I'm way off on that.
Mike Holmes wrote: That's correct. The original term is thought to have been Hashishin, or users of Hashish (though there's some debate about this). There's a lot of Myth surrounding the cult, news of which was brought back to Europe first by the crusaders and later by Maro Polo. It may be true that they didn't use drugs at all. It's all really interesting, and I'd recommend to anyone reading up on this stuff.
You've read up on this stuff and you're content to simply agree? Shame on you! ; ^ ) Can you imagine Cheech and Chong making a kill having recently indulged in a spliff or three?
Seriously though:
The Assassins were the Nizari Ismailis, a branch of Shia Islam. Ismaili's claim that the stories of their use of murder as a political tool originated from Sunni scholars seeking to discredit their theological views and undermine their political position.
At most the drug use was intended to give the user a glimpse of the afterlife that awaited them should they be martyred. More likely there was no drug use.
The term Assassin has an obscure etymology. Given it is a Franc bastardisation of an Arabic word, it could be derived from:
hassas -- the root word of which (hassa) means to kill or exterminate,
Jabal al-Sikkin -- the name of the mountain on which the headquarters of the Syrian Ismailis was located. Sikkin means knife, hence "the mountain of the knife",
al-Sasani -- "the family of Sasan", where sasan means "adventurer",
al-Sisani -- from al-sisa meaning "rocky fortress", one who dwells in a rocky fortress, or
Hashishiyya -- the users of hasish.
The last of these was a term of abuse. The earliest reported political/theological use of the term against the Ismailis was in 1123 by Sunni authors. It implied that the Ismailis belonged to an inferior social and moral status.
It really is a fascinating subject, particularly when you tie it all back to the history of the first fifty years of the Muslim faith.
Cheers,
On 12/11/2003 at 5:46pm, Draigh wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
Draigh wrote:
I think your motivations for playing an addicted character are probably immature and you don't have enough real-world knowledge of drugs and addiction to portray an addicted character accurately.
No offense intended here, but honestly, grow up. This thread is immature.
As I stated, no offense was intended.
Notice this part right here...
Draigh wrote: This thread is immature.
As opposed to:
Ingenious wrote: You vacuous insignificant little worm, don't you realize that?(sorry, but I cant help flaming someone that calls me immature; hypocrite = me, since flaming makes someone immature).
I never called you immature, you inferred it. I said that I think your motivations are immature. Excellent point about my mouth and it's checkwriting abilities, though.
Ingenious wrote: Oh, and Draigh... I hope you have a big enough crowbar to fit into that giant mouth of yours so you can pull your foot out of it, and THEN you can kiss my ass.
I'll keep that in mind.
Honestly, in the end, I could give two shits and a fuck how you play your game, just have fun. If you and your GM have fun playing with your character as an addict, great. All that matters is that you enjoy the game.
They sure grow 'em touchy down in Texas, huh?
BTW: was your character inspired by Lu Bu?
On 12/11/2003 at 7:52pm, Ingenious wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
Yes Draigh, in fact the inspiration for my character came a lot from Lu Bu and the Dynasty Warriors series of video games. However, I did not completely base him off of Lu Bu. I also took alot of what I've been through in terms of addiction and so forth, and put it in my character and he's also very much so fueled by revenge. The addiction is to help him forget about his past dealings with his family and the military and that his father was a moron in terms of strategy.
This topic, however, is just to find a means to an end for my character.
-Ingenious
On 12/11/2003 at 8:12pm, Anthony I wrote:
RE: Drug-cartels anyone?
The biggest problem I see is the whole drug-business angle- do you think that buying the land, constucting the buildings, doing the books, running the business will be exciting to actually play? If not, just gloss it over and stick to the interesting parts.
Take "Scarface" as an example, is how he runs the business the important part of the movie? Is exactly how much money an ounce of coke sells for important to the movie? Or is it how he interacts with his friends, family and enemies that make the movie good?
I'd say its the same with your drug-cartel idea- figure out what the best, most exciting parts would be, focus on those, and let the minutia be background stuff. Unless of course you like the minutia- then focus on that.
I would probably focus on things like how wealth, especially sudden wealth, can change long & short term relationship dynamics leading to things like betrayal from close friends, suddenly finding yourself business partners with old enemies, unable to truly trust those you love, etc.
Please let us know how this eventually works out in actual play.
On 12/11/2003 at 9:56pm, Ian.Plumb wrote:
Re: Diagh you moron.
Hi,
Ingenious wrote: Drug types:
OPIATES: (snip)
Any chance of tying it back to a medieval or rennaisance pharmacological technology level?
Personally, I see this thread as a little unrealistic. The version of Weyrth that you are playing may be at the Fantastic end of the reality spectrum, in which case perhaps anything is possible. However, to use 14th century France as an example, what you propose would not be possible.
There are several significant obstacles that need to be overcome.
1) Obtain the land.
It isn't hard to obtain land, particularly after 1348. Land can be rented for a short period of time (like a year). However, whoever owns the land will be a feudal entity in their own right -- the church, petite nobility at the least. As such, by renting land from them you will be entering into a relationship that extends far beyond the handing over of a few coins.
2) Working the land.
Whoever works the land will need to live off what they produce. Diversification is the key to survival. If a single crop fails there needs to be something else to eat so that the farmers may survive through to the reaping of the next crop -- or everyone dies.
In addition, the farmers will need expertise in growing what you want grown. They will need to know how to deal with the parasites, the fungal growths, and so on that will attack the plant. They'll need to know how to space the plants, what sort of soil they need, how much sun/water is required, and so on. Agriculture is a complicated business even for a medieval farmer.
3) Converting the plant into product.
This piece of knowledge will be absolutely critical. To do this on a commercial scale will require significant expertise. If your character doesn't have this expertise then it will have to be hired in from the native production area. This will be both difficult and expensive.
4) The right to sell.
You've worked your land, produced your crop, produced your product -- and you don't have the right to sell it.
For those that do not work the land directly, the medieval economy is largely based on the buying and selling of income streams. In the end, there is no abstraction in the medieval economy -- to make more money you have to buy something that makes money. There's nothing else to invest in.
The rights to high and low justice in an area were bought and sold because having the right gave access to the fines generated by the court. Important relics were bought, sold, and fought over because they gave access to the donations of pilgrims and pennitents. The rights to produce lumber from a forest, the right to fish in a river, rents on properties were all bought and sold (without necessarily selling the underlying asset -- you could buy the rights to the rent produced by a property without buying the actual property).
If you want to sell your product at market then you're going to have to pay for that priviledge. And there is a reasonable chance that the owner of the rights to any particular market is going to want more than coin from you in exchange.
5) The response to your product.
In 14th century France the rule of law is strong. The larger the population the stronger the rule of law. By this I do not mean that there was a high degree of centralisation and coordination of law enforcement. Rather, the people themselves were law abiding for the most part. How do we know this? Directly, through contemporary documents from the secular courts that show the frequency and types of crimes being committed. Indirectly, through how law enforcement was conducted.
Lyon, a city with a population of between 16k and 20k, had a secular court with a prévot and a number of sergeants. The prévot was responsible for keeping the peace and worked for the court. He had 16 sergeants working for him, which doubled to 32 during the time of a fair (when there would be a large influx of foreigners).
What will happen when a new recreational drug is introduced into this environment? IMO, not much. Being from the east it will be condemned by the church for its association with the saracen. Once condemned those that are law abiding won't buy it even if it isn't illegal to buy it. If not condemned those responsible for law enforcement will make it illegal if it is in the public interest to do so.
There were no laws against drugs in the west because they never faced the problem. Look to the east and its laws, secular and religious, for an understanding of how a medieval society deals with the drug issue.
Cheers,
On 12/12/2003 at 12:37am, Ingenious wrote:
Farming, etc.
Yes, I know the difficulties of all of these things that you have pointed out. However, the seneschal does not have to set it up to reflect history. It could be that money rules over social class in this world, and I am told that my character has quite a bit of it. Regardless Ian, like you stated that maybe the right to buy land is limited to nobility, but I still have to point out to everyone here that my character can easily be disguised as a noble in order to buy lands. I then can set up a manor, my character can install his own Lord of the Manor, and the peasantry can farm the land however they want throughout the year except for the crop of drugs. That quota they must meet. With complete rights to the land, I can therefore allow the peasants to hunt on my lands, should a crop fail, etc. About your point on converting the plant to product. Expertise my character does not have, however expensive it is to fund a person with such knowledge would not be a problem. I can fund all of this through a bank, and from what I read of medieval banking, with letters of credit.
Now about the right to sell, as far as I am concerned.. this is a non-issue.
However, you speak as if I am going to be setting up shop in such a place as to even have a LOCAL government. This is not the case. I can just as easily buy some uninhabited lands out in the middle of nowhere, where I would basically have free run of the place.
About your thoughts on the response to my 'product'. I don't necessarily have to sell it to a place with a secular court, or even an established religion. Hell, I could sell it back in my character's homeland, from what I read on Stahl they are mostly atheists.
-Ingenious
On 12/12/2003 at 2:05am, Ian.Plumb wrote:
Re: Farming, etc.
Hi,
Ingenious wrote: However, the seneschal does not have to set it up to reflect history.
Absolutely. From what you're saying, the referee hasn't.
Ingenious wrote: ... but I still have to point out to everyone here that my character can easily be disguised as a noble in order to buy lands.
I am a little curious as to what your referee feels is necessary to prove nobility but then, as you rightly point out, it doesn't have to be based on the real world.
Ingenious wrote: I then can set up a manor, my character can install his own Lord of the Manor, and the peasantry can farm the land however they want throughout the year except for the crop of drugs....
...I can fund all of this through a bank, and from what I read of medieval banking, with letters of credit.
...However, you speak as if I am going to be setting up shop in such a place as to even have a LOCAL government. This is not the case. I can just as easily buy some uninhabited lands out in the middle of nowhere, where I would basically have free run of the place.
Unless there is no credible form to the world's infrastructure -- and I haven't read anything about Weyrth, so perhaps it has no definition of its own infrastructure -- you can't have it both ways. You can't require the peak of medieval infrastructure -- feudal nobility network, letters of exchange, mints, trade networks, law and so on -- on the one hand and then drop this creation in the middle of nowhere, free of any form of government or law, on the other.
Ingenious wrote: About your thoughts on the response to my 'product'. I don't necessarily have to sell it to a place with a secular court, or even an established religion. Hell, I could sell it back in my character's homeland, from what I read on Stahl they are mostly atheists.
?
You want to sell your product in a place where there are no courts? Where there is no central authority (at the village, town, city, or domainal level, either secular or religious) so that there can be no formal response. Virtually by definition, in a medieval society there can be no money in the place you are describing.
Cheers,
On 12/12/2003 at 2:53am, Ingenious wrote:
Ian.
Yea, I see what you're saying. But I don't really see what I was saying lol. I was in such a condition at the moment that I knew nothing of what I was talking about. That happens often hahaha
Now then, onto your most recent post. I am also curious as to what my ref would say I needed in order to prove nobility.
On to the point about lording of the manor... I used that as a reference to something I might be capable of doing depending on what the circumstances are in this world. On the flipside, what I also could do is just buy some land, and get some slave labor in there to work the fields. I could probably feed them with the gold that I would be saving by not having to pay them for work. Let's say that these slaves could even be criminals, sentenced to a life of hardship.. or some sort of labor based punishment. *shrug* though with this my character would be ultimately responsible for their welfare.
Now the point about courts, it isn't that I want to sell it to a place with no courts.. I want to sell it to a place where the use of these drugs are legal, therefore it should be legal to buy them. I agree with your thoughts on the anarchy that would ensue without a court, and also no monetary system. However, with Stahl... most likely it will be legal since they don't use religion as a source of laws for government. The many historical variations of religion based government are too numerous to mention.
The comment I wrote on selling to a nation without a secular court was wrong, since at the time I had forgot the definition of the term secular.
And the legality of the goods in question ultimately depends on what kind of drugs they are, their effects on the population.. and the potential spike in criminal activity that might be blamed on my product. Then I could see it become illegal, and I might have to take my money and run.
Now, as to what Anthony said... I highly agree with you that in play I should focus on the relationships, the sudden onset of wealth.. how this changes relationship dynamics etc. But, as far as to what I am doing in this thread... I am meaning to just try to gleam as much information as I can about the topic to save my ref from doing all of the research, since I have so much time on my hands suddenly.. so I might as well help out where I can.
And I will keep you all posted on how this works out in the adventure.
-Ingenious
On 12/12/2003 at 3:45am, Ingenious wrote:
The issue at hand.
Okay having read through all of my research and using alot of ya'lls ideas and suggestions.. I find that this issue has far too many variables to be an efficiently plausible situation for my character to do, without sacrificing the game play of others in the group. It would take too much time, and it would not be something I could easily 'set and forget' like a microwave.
This is of course, unless the seneschal running the show doesn't think so.
Either way, as a side-venture for additional capital(err is that capitol?) and to possibly mix things up in the world(the direct opposite of what I said on the issue) is that I can take the horse-breeding idea and run with it. I heard from a friend that 'war is good for profit'.
I'll see what the GM says about these issues.
-Ingenious
On 12/12/2003 at 5:52am, ZazielsRephaim wrote:
Yikes
I dissappear for a little while, and see what happens. Anywho, concerning the whole drug issue... I had never before had it come up in a game, so I decided to let it ride, and see how well it worked out. Not too knowledgable in the details of drugs, nor really caring (lol) Decided to keep a level of faith in the players. Sofar, gamewise, all that has come up, is Stan's daily hit... (no biggy, toke before sleep) and drugging some guards.
As for the whole cartel/druglord issue... I figure a player can be allowed to decided what they want to TRY to do.. and how they want to try to do it. They just better be ready for a realistic outcome. Besides, I've been pushing (pun not intended) the horse breeding idea ever since it came up. Either way, the players have issues they need to deal with in the short term.
Thank you all for your intelligent input. As for realisticly portraying landownership and such, No one had brought that up during the last session, and the purchasing of land will be portrayed mostly in a realistic and historical manner... but... it varies from culture to culture and nation to nation... of course. Most of the characters have little knowledge outside of the nations they've allready been too.... so if they want to learn more... I might suggest they explore a bit.
YMMV,
Luke