Okay, over at livejournal, I've put up a sneaky peek at Fungeon.

http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?itemid=15027185

Simple currency, Room by Room play, resolution builds in a fun way of narrating events.

In a nutshell: Distill dungeon crawling PCs down to: Class, Level, Hits. Monsters and Traps down to: Level.

There are two conflicts: Painful and Annoying. One causes damage, the other doesn't.

Players take turns describing Rooms, filling them with Traps, Treasure and Monsters.

Have fun!

Awesome name! I'll check out the game ASAP.

Later...

Okay, that's pretty cool.

[ This Message was edited by: Jared A. Sorensen on 2001-11-13 14:30 ]

Hmmm. Some questions.

How do you decide who gets the treasure after the room is cleared?
Can the Fungeoneers fight amongst themselves?
If there are four players, does the lowest roller not get to describe anything about the room?
How do you know if a class bonus counts? Honor? Vote of players?
Why wouldn't I always save my high roll for treasure and spend the low roll for monsters?
Is there a "return to the inn" rule? If I am at two hits (and all out of healing: damn you george for making that last room so lethal!)), I won't want to go into the next room. Or is this where the game ends, highest level wins? Or add all the players levels together for collaborative play? Or is it not supposed to be Gamist at all (hard to believe)?
What if all ones rolled did no damage? Makes it possible to miss a lesser foe (though still unlikely).
What about Mhacick? Do you just describe your rolls with magical effects?

This has really got me going with ideas. Hmmm...

Mike

Mike

Yay! FAQ Time!

* How do you decide who gets the treasure after the room is cleared?
I suppose canny Players will make Magic Wand of Fireballs for use by Mages only, or a +3 Sword (you can't use it, Cleric! hah!) Good question, though. Maybe whoever scored the LEAST XP in that room gets FIRST pick at treasure? Something to think about.

* Can the Fungeoneers fight amongst themselves?
If they like. I wouldn't recommend it, though.

* If there are four players, does the lowest roller not get to describe anything about the room?
That's right. Poor fellow.

* How do you know if a class bonus counts? Honor? Vote of players?
I would say a vote to cover any disputes. And the results of this are permanent and everlasting, and logically apply to every other player. Hopefully only kind people will play this game.

* Why wouldn't I always save my high roll for treasure and spend the low roll for monsters?
You don't get experience for treasure. Oh, and I changed the rules for doling out Room Points. You get as many Room Points as your Level. Not your roll.

* Is there a "return to the inn" rule? If I am at two hits (and all out of healing: damn you george for making that last room so lethal!)), I won't want to go into the next room. Or is this where the game ends, highest level wins?
Hmm ... well, if you die, then you create a new PC. I haven't come up with a good solution for this. Maybe there needs to be a mapper, and you can go backwards through rooms (with a slight chance of encounter or something).

* Or add all the players levels together for collaborative play? Or is it not supposed to be Gamist at all (hard to believe)?
Heee ... it's all Gamist, but half-cooperative and half-competitive. I'm hoping that the challenges require everyone to work together. If not, I'll up the points given to people to make monsters and traps.

* What if all ones rolled did no damage? Makes it possible to miss a lesser foe (though still unlikely).
Well, if all the dice are tied, and no damage is done, that's fine. You just narrate some cool conflict with no lasting results. Thing is, someone with a higher Level will ALWAYS hurt someone with a lower Level.

* What about Mhacick? Do you just describe your rolls with magical effects?
Yes. If you're a Mage casting a spell, you say something like, "Fireball!" and you get add your Class Bonus to your dice. This keeps mages from using swords (no Class Bonus) and fighters from throwing spells.

But I'm hoping you don't just stick to Fireball. I'd like to see things like, "Bixby's Leperous Fingers of Poking!"

_________________
Zak
zak@mimir.net
Harlekin-Maus Games

[ This Message was edited by: Zak Arntson on 2001-11-13 15:53 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Zak Arntson on 2001-11-13 15:54 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Zak Arntson on 2001-11-13 15:55 ]

The problem that I have is that I see a group playing this competitively. Certainly they don't have to, but given the nature of the material as presented, I think that'll happen a lot. And the game is not balanced for it.

On 2001-11-13 15:50, Zak Arntson wrote:
Yay! FAQ Time!

* How do you decide who gets the treasure after the room is cleared?
I suppose canny Players will make Magic Wand of Fireballs for use by Mages only, or a +3 Sword (you can't use it, Cleric! hah!) Good question, though. Maybe whoever scored the LEAST XP in that room gets FIRST pick at treasure? Something to think about.

* How do you know if a class bonus counts? Honor? Vote of players?
I would say a vote to cover any disputes. And the results of this are permanent and everlasting, and logically apply to every other player. Hopefully only kind people will play this game.

* Why wouldn't I always save my high roll for treasure and spend the low roll for monsters?
You don't get experience for treasure. Oh, and I changed the rules for doling out Room Points. You get as many Room Points as your Level. Not your roll.

* Is there a "return to the inn" rule? If I am at two hits (and all out of healing: damn you george for making that last room so lethal!)), I won't want to go into the next room. Or is this where the game ends, highest level wins?
Hmm ... well, if you die, then you create a new PC. I haven't come up with a good solution for this. Maybe there needs to be a mapper, and you can go backwards through rooms (with a slight chance of encounter or something).

* Or add all the players levels together for collaborative play? Or is it not supposed to be Gamist at all (hard to believe)?
Heee ... it's all Gamist, but half-cooperative and half-competitive. I'm hoping that the challenges require everyone to work together. If not, I'll up the points given to people to make monsters and traps.

* What if all ones rolled did no damage? Makes it possible to miss a lesser foe (though still unlikely).
Well, if all the dice are tied, and no damage is done, that's fine. You just narrate some cool conflict with no lasting results. Thing is, someone with a higher Level will ALWAYS hurt someone with a lower Level.

* What about Mhacick? Do you just describe your rolls with magical effects?
Yes. If you're a Mage casting a spell, you say something like, "Fireball!" and you get add your Class Bonus to your dice. This keeps mages from using swords (no Class Bonus) and fighters from throwing spells.

But I'm hoping you don't just stick to Fireball. I'd like to see things like, "Bixby's Leperous Fingers of Poking!"

On 2001-11-13 16:34, Mike Holmes wrote:
The problem that I have is that I see a group playing this competitively. Certainly they don't have to, but given the nature of the material as presented, I think that'll happen a lot. And the game is not balanced for it.

The players have to get along and figure out an even distribution, or they fight. Howsabout making it all based on turns. Perhaps a player can have his PC duck out of a fight early to pick up a treasure. So on a turn you can:
-fight
-mess with something annoying
-pick something (unguarded, untrapped) up

Kind? You mean they're on their honor?

No balance of monsters against levels either. If we have four 3rd level characters that's way more powerful ...

Oh, yes, please, please, please, please, can we make maps on quadrille? No, seriously. I love, making maps. Maybe roll for room size and have bigger rooms have a modifier to the thwak-0 rolls.

Not just up, but balance against the level of the PCs somehow. Just like in that other game. Oh, and don't forget the stairway to lower levels where each room's contents are multiplied by the number of the level. Lotsa cool mechanics possible here.

That's my point. Seems arbitrarily harsh to the weaklings. The ones rule would give them at least a miniscule chance. Ooh, and if you roll all ones you do a point to yourself. FUMBLE! C'mon, ya gotta have a fumble rule. And dice that are maxes that are uncancelled by ties should do two points: crit hits!

Hmmm. I'm seeing expansion packs. Isn't this how Steve Jackson got started? :wink:

Sounds like a blast. I'm sure you'll get it all straight in the end. I may play me a solo game later to test it. I can't promise that I won't be introducing some house rules, however. :wink:

Mike

OK, going through a mental game I come to a point wher the rules aren't perfectly clear. Your combat example is one on one. Lets say were two on two. Is it still only the very highest roller that gets to do damage? Even if both characters roll higher than both monsters? Or vice versa? Or do you pair off into separate fights? If so, how do you determine who gets what opponents?

I see that you have made the number of points spent Fungeoneering a room as always equal to the rollers level. This is more balanced, but lacks a random element. How about having a pool on entering a room equal to the total of the levels of all players entering. The player with the highest Thwack-o gets to decide on how many of those points to take (limited by twice their level), and then rolls randomly to see which of the three things he must make.

Thus if I roll highest with my 3rd level Ratcatcher (in a party with three third level characters) I can choose to take from one to six of the levels. I select two options Treasure and Room. Even I get my first choice, odd I get my second. The second highest Thwack-o roller rolls between the remaining two, and the last guy must do the last option if any dice remain.

I know, too complicated.

Mike

On 2001-11-13 18:00, Mike Holmes wrote:
OK, going through a mental game I come to a point wher the rules aren't perfectly clear. Your combat example is one on one. Lets say were two on two. Is it still only the very highest roller that gets to do damage? Even if both characters roll higher than both monsters? Or vice versa? Or do you pair off into separate fights? If so, how do you determine who gets what opponents?

I see that you have made the number of points spent Fungeoneering a room as always equal to the rollers level. This is more balanced, but lacks a random element. How about having a pool on entering a room equal to the total of the levels of all players entering. The player with the highest Thwack-o gets to decide on how many of those points to take (limited by twice their level), and then rolls randomly to see which of the three things he must make.

I know, too complicated.

I understand the examples that you have. And I assume from them that what side you are on makes no difference from your example. But what this means is that a player who rolls higher than his buddy is preventing his buddy from doing damage that he might have dome if he were alone. This seems counterintuitive.

Fungeoneer A (lvl 4 using class bonus): 8,7,5,4,3,2
Fungeoneer B (lvl 4 using class bonus): 7,6,5,4,3,2

Monster A (lvl 2): 10,1
Monster B (lvl 2): 9,2

OK, heres what happens from my reading of the rules. Monster A does a point of damage (presumably the target is selected by the creator of the monsters?) Monster B, though he rolled more than the Fungeoneers does nothing as his roll was not highest. Next round Fungeoneer A does one point giving it to Monster A. Fungeoneer B does no damage as his roll was not highest. Rounds 3-6: no damage as the rolls were ties between Fungeoneer A and B, and ties for highest do no damage.

What? Were they stumbling over each other to get to the monsters? Seems punitive for no particular reason. Perhaps they can pair off and run their own combats individually. Or do you intend to keep the rules as written and have the above example remain true?

Mike

Good stuff there!

I still have a copy of an old TSR board game simply called DUNGEON!, which was the same style. I would suggest "borrowing" from that with the following:

Competitive Play:
This requires that the dungeon ultimately be MAPPED out, so that the entrance of the dungeon, town, castle, or whatever is clear. Players can branch off into different rooms, battling different creatures and so on. Basically, the point here is that you be the adventurer with the MOST treasure on exit. (Perhaps there will be a total game turn limit - 40 turns or adventurers still stuck in the dungeon are suddenly devoured by the dragon...) Adventurers can leave early or wait the full game time - but once a room has been explored, new monsters or treasure do not appear there.

Then here is another idea:

Solo or Cooperative Play:
Use scenarios -- Beforehand, create a major villain with a special power or powers. The point is to find the villain and take him out. The group of players can participate in determining who this villain is and why they are taking him out -- or they can download a scenario that someone else wrote with special rules or dangers. Maybe on a certain roll while exploring determines whether they find the villain or not? I dunno about that...

Wow -- this is some good stuff though. Keep up the good work, Zak.... If you want to develop this more, I'd say build more examples and some charts to help guide room creation, monster creation, and so on. Also, you might consider creating encounter charts and stuff for the weak-minded... What may be the best about this is that it is very flexible.

Thanks,
Nathan

On 2001-11-14 09:48, Nathan wrote:
Good stuff there!

I still have a copy of an old TSR board game simply called DUNGEON!, which was the same style. I would suggest "borrowing" from that with the following:

Competitive Play:
This requires that the dungeon ultimately be MAPPED out, so that the entrance of the dungeon, town, castle, or whatever is clear. Players can branch off into different rooms, battling different creatures and so on. Basically, the point here is that you be the adventurer with the MOST treasure on exit. (Perhaps there will be a total game turn limit - 40 turns or adventurers still stuck in the dungeon are suddenly devoured by the dragon...) Adventurers can leave early or wait the full game time - but once a room has been explored, new monsters or treasure do not appear there.

Then here is another idea:

Solo or Cooperative Play:
Use scenarios -- Beforehand, create a major villain with a special power or powers. The point is to find the villain and take him out. The group of players can participate in determining who this villain is and why they are taking him out -- or they can download a scenario that someone else wrote with special rules or dangers. Maybe on a certain roll while exploring determines whether they find the villain or not? I dunno about that...

On 2001-11-14 09:18, Mike Holmes wrote:
Fungeoneer A (lvl 4 using class bonus): 8,7,5,4,3,2
Fungeoneer B (lvl 4 using class bonus): 7,6,5,4,3,2

Monster A (lvl 2): 10,1
Monster B (lvl 2): 9,2

Rounds 3-6: no damage as the rolls were ties between Fungeoneer A and B, and ties for highest do no damage.

Or do you intend to keep the rules as written and have the above example remain true?

On 2001-11-14 12:30, Mike Holmes wrote:
Why not just play Dungeon. I have a copy. What makes Fungeon unique is that the dungeon will be different each time. Wouldn't dare take that part away. And it's unnecessary to do so for competitive play. I like HP as a limit better than some arbitrary time limit.

On 2001-11-14 09:48, Nathan wrote:
Competitive Play:
This requires that the dungeon ultimately be MAPPED out ...

Solo or Cooperative Play:
Use scenarios -- Beforehand, create a major villain with a special power or powers. The point is to find the villain and take him out.

Wow -- this is some good stuff though. Keep up the good work, Zak.... If you want to develop this more, ...

Why can't you play solo? Sure you'll always know what you're up against, but so what? If you work out the rules so that it is collaboratively competitive (the players work together against the Fungeon to score treasure or exp), then single-player play is easy. As it stands the best strategy is pretty easy to figure out. I have run through a couple of Fungeons already with my Ratcatcher (using a spreadsheet for dice), and I can see it working fine.

One thing. Healing is too easy to obtain. You shouldn't be able to designeat the nature of treasure so easily. It means that you're always finding healing just in the nick of time. Hmmm... perhaps make it a gamble. For each healing roll a die and on an even result get a hit. Hmmm..

Back to the Fungeon!

Mike

What happens on a tie of the high die in an annoying conflict? My Ratcatcher's fate is hanging in the balance as he tries to open a chest with a measley 2nd lvl poisoned lock.

BTW, I'm doing poison as a roll of Painful level vs. Character level every room you enter until I find a Cure poison potion (2 treasure points; cheap to stop, but potentially dangerous).

Mike

Why can't you play solo?

One thing. Healing is too easy to obtain. You shouldn't be able to designeat the nature of treasure so easily. It means that you're always finding healing just in the nick of time.

What happens on a tie of the high die in an annoying conflict?

BTW, I'm doing poison as a roll of Painful level vs. Character level every room you enter until I find a Cure poison potion (2 treasure points; cheap to stop, but potentially dangerous).

On 2001-11-14 15:14, Zak Arntson wrote:
Wow! You've been playing solo? Looks like Fungeon works better than I thought ... hooray for simplicity!

Hrmm ... say you are a Level 3 PC. You have 15 Hits. You get to place a Level 3 Monster, a Level 3 Trap and a Level 3 Treasure (playing solo). So does a Level 3 Monster not hurt you enough? Hmm ... I wonder if you should get points = (Your Level * 2)? Two Level 3 Monsters should be a little tougher. Or one Level 6 ...

You compare the next highest dice. And on down. Tie means neither party succeeds, so the Trap wasn't sprung, and you didn't get hurt.

Hmm .. That sounds like a good idea. I'll have to think about how to balance out the cost of poisoning somebody ... How did you spend your points for a Poison Trap?

Thanks for playtesting this thing!!

Quick stat analysis. Taking a break after attaining level five.

Level 4 farmer wielding four dice against one level 4 monstie. Expected damage 12, or he gets as good as he gives. The only reason he wins is that he has more hits than the monstie. EXP 13

Level 4 farmer wielding four dice against four level 1 monsties. Expected damage 3 (four is second most likely), or each monster is good for about one. EXP 16

Level 4 fighter wielding six dice against one level 4 monstie. Expected damage in the encounter 4 points (five is second most likely). The character can theoretically die. EXP 13

Level 4 fighter weilding six dice against four one level monsties. Expected damage 2 points (impossible to take more than that). EXP 16

See the problem?

Hey, how about Running = Annoying roll to disengage and go back to the last room (where unused healing may be applied). Failure would mean the same as Paralysis or Hug above, the Painful roll for that round is made but player successes are all cancelled.

I've noted that all combat rounds have two phases. The roll annoying stuff phase, and the attack phase. Or am I doing something wrong?

If a monstie has a special attack and he fails,then I'm assuming that he is "paralyzed" for the round? Otherwise why wouldn't all creatures have such abilities and use them? Essentially ones with them would be more powerful than those without.

Mike

What do you say, do ratcatchers get their bonus dice against bear hugs?

I've noted that all combat rounds have two phases. The roll annoying stuff phase, and the attack phase. Or am I doing something wrong?

If a monstie has a special attack and he fails,then I'm assuming that he is "paralyzed" for the round? Otherwise why wouldn't all creatures have such abilities and use them? Essentially ones with them would be more powerful than those without.

Nifty. Good stuff.

Uh-oh. Questions.

What effect does the dungeon floor have? I kept expecting to see that it was the number of points that you get to spend on each category in each room. Did I miss it?

What's the importance of the Party Total?

Why are permenant magic items so cheap? I was going to mention this before, but this is the easiest way to get more powerful already. If I kill a lvl 3 monster I get 10 EXP, or one fourth of what I need to get from level three to four. So I need to kill 4 lvl 3 monsters to get another die (and a half). Whereas 4 lvl 3 treasures means 2 dice of permenant power by the old five to one ratio, or six dice by your new ratio. I'm thinking more like ten to one. Twenty to one to get an item that effectively raises your level by one, and thirty to one for one that raises your level and gives class bonus. Or something like that. Makes permenant magic something really hard to save for, and a real triumph when you get it.

These permenant bonus items are really powerful in that you get extra dice for stuff without raising your level. Now, if points for rooms were based on floor, then it wouldn't matter, would it?


One of the fun things in the game is going to be defining things as you play. I was just goofing around with the ratcatcher idea. But thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that he should only get his class bonus against poison and against vermin-like creatures. This makes him different than a fighter. Then it occured to me. Fighters shouldn't get their bonus against vermin. What good is being strong against rats. You need fast. Anyhow, the point is that you can define a monster or trap or whatever by what can affect it and what cannot. So Thorbad is great against rats, centipedes, and spiders, etc. But not so good against trolls. Or at least a monster defining player could decide that Trolls fell outside of a ratcatcher's purview.

So in solo play I'm sending Thorbad to the fifth level of the devil swamp today. Mostly vermin he'll encounter there. :smile:

Mike

What effect does the dungeon floor have? I kept expecting to see that it was the number of points that you get to spend on each category in each room. Did I miss it?

What's the importance of the Party Total?

Why are permenant magic items so cheap?

These permenant bonus items are really powerful in that you get extra dice for stuff without raising your level. Now, if points for rooms were based on floor, then it wouldn't matter, would it?

Anyhow, the point is that you can define a monster or trap or whatever by what can affect it and what cannot.

Here's the legend of Thorbad's trip to Devil Swamp. Tromping into the fifth level swamp Thobad encountered pool after pool (room after room) of giant biting mosquitoes (5 lvl 1 baddies). He took a couple of damage early on, but was able to find healing herbs to make himself well again (avoiding lvl 1 annoying lvl 2 continuous poison slugs that like such herbs). At one point he was poisoned, but soon found a mushroom before the poison could do much damage. Other treasures he found included other herbs that he knew that he could sell back in town.

After six pools he reached a point where the swamp descended into a dark fen (lvl 6). Here he encountered a very hungry and monsterously large frog (lvl 6 with a special attack). Doing battle with the frog, Thorbad had just achieved lvl 6 for nine dice with his class bonus, and with his magic stick of ratsmacking, his gloves of protection, and his boots of negotiating slime, he was a grand total of twelve dice. The first round the frog attacked ferociously doing 5 points while Thorbad dealt 6. The next round the frog used its special tongue-punch attack which worked on Thorbad (must've been surprised). This did a further 7 points to Thorbad whilst the frog only took 4. Thorbad was not about to be done in by a frog, though, and on the next round not only avoided the frog's tongue, but managed to deliver 10 mightly points of damage finishing the frog.

All in all, Thorbad returned to town and spent some treasure to heal leaving him with a total of seven unspent treasure points. He's considering his next move now. Anyone have a Fungeon with lots of vermin that needs clearing?


Anyhow, one idea I had for rooms is penalties. For each point spent the character must roll one die less for certain activities. Like a slimy floor might be a lvl 2 penalty to fighting. A cursed room might be a lvl 2 penalty to spell use, etc. I've also been considering rules for obstacles in rooms, defending, and ranged attacks (free round?). I love the retreat rule.

The two points for healing is much better. I'd also drop the one hit auto healing per room, however.

Mike

See the "points" part of each category. You get (Party Max + Dungeon Floor) for Traps, (Party Total + Dungeon Floor) for Monsters, and (Party Min + Dungeon Floor) for Treasure.

You've got a good point about the 1 bonus magic item die is MUCH cheaper than going up a level.

-()-Snip Ratagator example-()-

(ratcatchers definitely get bonuses for ratigators, no?)

I am concerned about Treasure, though. How's this:
Treasure
Points: Party Min + Dungeon Floor
You must first decide on what form the Treasure takes:
* 1 point = 1 point of Treasure (gold, statuettes, etc)
* 1 point = 1 mundane item (wooden club, metal sword, etc)
* 2 points = 1 fancy item (mithril armor, silver dagger, etc)
Then you must spend points to make it magical:
* 1 point = Heal 1 Hit (one-use)
* 1 point = 1 Die Bonus (one-use)
* 1 point = Prevent 1 Level of continuous Painful Conflict
* 2 points = 1 Die Bonus (unlimited use, must apply to one situation: combat, fire, poison, etc)

There is no such thing as continuous Healing. So a +3 Sword would be 6 points (mundane item, 3 Die Bonuses). And the other party members would certainly complain when you spend 6 points for you, leaving 2 points for the rest.

I'm worried that the Special Ability costs are skewed ... they're easier to avoid than a regular attack. Here's new costs:

Monsters
Points: Party Total + Dungeon Floor
Costs:
* 1 point = 1 Level
* 1 point = 1 Die Bonus vs. Type of Attack (melee, steel, wood, fist, etc.)
* 1 point = increase Special Ability Painful Conflict by 2 Levels
* Double cost of Special Ability if the Painful Conflict is continuous (see Traps)
* Monster Hits = Monster Level * 3

... I'd give Fighters combat bonuses always, and Ratcatchers bonuses combat against vermin, avoiding posion & disease, and working in confined spaces.

More Revisions:
Treasure
Points: Party Min + Dungeon Floor
Costs:
(all as before except)
* Double the cost of the item for each permanent Die Bonus

This means a Sword costs 1 point. A Flaming Sword costs 2 points (fancy item). A Flaming Sword +1 costs 4 points. Flaming Sword +2 costs 8 points. And so on.

A standard Sword +3 now costs 8 points. So your 5th Level Ratcatcher needs to be AT LEAST down to Floor 3.

And yes, you can only wield one combat item at a time. I would say that common sense prevails (two rings, one weapon & shield or one BIG weapon, one armor, one set of earrings, etc) for hoarding items.

I also like your XP suggestion. Okay, so each time you hit a monster, you get Monster Level XP's. Anytime you avoid a Trap you get Trap Cost XP's. No XP's for treasure. This should be fine.

Let's see ... 12 lvl 1 creatures with this new experience system gives you 3 hits per Monster ... 1 EXP per hit ... ... 12 monsters: 36 EXP. 1 lvl 12 creature gives you 36 hits per monster ... at level 12 ... 1 monster: 432 EXP! Wow! I wonder how this will work out?

Thanks again for all your playtesting ...