Topic: Assorted Questions of Demon Abilities
Started by: Ben Lehman
Started on: 12/18/2003
Board: Adept Press
On 12/18/2003 at 5:01pm, Ben Lehman wrote:
Assorted Questions of Demon Abilities
So, I'm running a game of Sorcerer (Charnel Gods brew) and I had some questions about demon abilities.
First of all, all the demons (save one) are incapable of independent action (they are weapons). If this is the case, do they "go" on their sorcerer's turn? Or do they take their "own" actions on some initiative (based on weapon stamina? will? power?), and simply use their Damage powers on the Sorcerer's turn? (if he hits.)
Secondly, I got the idea (from somewhere) that the binding strength can be added to combat rolls for such demons, at the demon's option if the binding is in its favor. Is this true in any way?
Thirdly, two of the players want something equivalent to an "area effect." For one, he wants his staff to be able to awaken the bestial impulses of men around it, as well as make plants grow quickly. This seems to me to be Cover: Beast + Daze + Taint + Ranged, but that only seems to effect one target at a time, which isn't as much fun. Is there some way of handling effects on a group of people? Another player wants his fire to be able to burn away large sections of things, for which I told him to link Big + Warp, but is this kosher?
Fourthly, can Demons perform Necromancy? (My gut instinct is no, because they have no humanity.) Particularly, one of the demons is a sword that can Mark people, and I thought it might be interesting to allow to to kill its Marks for bonus dice on various rolls.
Lastly, when fighting multiple people -- I have considered using "stacking successes" to model big crowds of unimportant people -- the highest skilled one rolls a base attack which is "added to," in the usual manner, by the weaker. Is this reasonable? Further, am I correct in assuming that one cannot take a defensive action after having launched an attack -- you're essentially down to 1 dice for all your defenses?
thanks very much--
--Ben
On 12/18/2003 at 5:44pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Assorted Questions of Demon Abilities
Hello Ben,
Jeez ... OK, by the numbers.
First of all, all the demons (save one) are incapable of independent action (they are weapons). If this is the case, do they "go" on their sorcerer's turn? Or do they take their "own" actions on some initiative (based on weapon stamina? will? power?), and simply use their Damage powers on the Sorcerer's turn? (if he hits.)
You're going too far with the phrase "incapable of independent action." Play these demons exactly as you would for any other, with Stamina rolls for placement in the combat sequence, for instance. Most importantly, think of them as conferring their Special Damage onto their wielders, rather than "using" the power in some sort of simultaneous way. No one can "hold" actions in Sorcerer.
Secondly, I got the idea (from somewhere) that the binding strength can be added to combat rolls for such demons, at the demon's option if the binding is in its favor. Is this true in any way?
Um, no. The only time that would apply is if it's attacking its Binder.
Thirdly, two of the players want something equivalent to an "area effect." For one, he wants his staff to be able to awaken the bestial impulses of men around it, as well as make plants grow quickly. This seems to me to be Cover: Beast + Daze + Taint + Ranged, but that only seems to effect one target at a time, which isn't as much fun. Is there some way of handling effects on a group of people? Another player wants his fire to be able to burn away large sections of things, for which I told him to link Big + Warp, but is this kosher?
In reverse order - that could be either Special Damage (fire) or Warp, depending on the details, but yes, Big + [whatever] sounds like the way to go.
As for the area affect, that's going to be interesting. See, Sorcerer isn't really Champions; you can't "bloat" an ability through a modifier. The best way to handle this, I think, is simply to set the area (say, a 25' diameter circle or something like that) as a given, and have everyone in that area roll against the demon's single roll.
Also, the plant-grow effect is an entirely different ability, based on Vitality, so that has to be handled on its own.
Fourthly, can Demons perform Necromancy? (My gut instinct is no, because they have no humanity.) Particularly, one of the demons is a sword that can Mark people, and I thought it might be interesting to allow to to kill its Marks for bonus dice on various rolls.
Let me take this from the top. First, yes, you can have a demon do as you describe. Kill its Marks, get bonus dice. Sounds cool.
But no, the demon cannot perform necromantic sorcery (rituals, Tokens). What it's doing looks like necromancy, that's all.
Lastly, when fighting multiple people -- I have considered using "stacking successes" to model big crowds of unimportant people -- the highest skilled one rolls a base attack which is "added to," in the usual manner, by the weaker. Is this reasonable?
I have no idea what you mean, I'm afraid. Can you clarify? You might have to give me a lot more context for the scene/confrontation you're envisioning.
Further, am I correct in assuming that one cannot take a defensive action after having launched an attack -- you're essentially down to 1 dice for all your defenses?
You are incorrect - significantly so. Once a character has launched his or her attack, all the character's defensive rolls are at full dice. It's getting hit before you go (and choosing not to abort) that has the one-die defense - nothing else.
Best,
Ron
On 12/18/2003 at 5:53pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Assorted Questions of Demon Abilities
Lastly, when fighting multiple people -- I have considered using "stacking successes" to model big crowds of unimportant people -- the highest skilled one rolls a base attack which is "added to," in the usual manner, by the weaker.
I think that's probably more complicated than you need it to be.
If you want to handle an entire mob of opponents in a single roll, simply set the the number of dice you want to use.
"Its a 5 die mob", "Its a 12 die mob" etc.
You may need to split the mob into parts if they're armed with dramatically different weapons (machine guns vs knives) and you wanted to make sure the damage got done right.
(Or you could simply roll different colored dice representing the ratio of weapons and the damage is figured based on whichever colored die happens to be the one that wins.)
On 12/18/2003 at 6:13pm, Ben Lehman wrote:
RE: Assorted Questions of Demon Abilities
You're going too far with the phrase "incapable of independent action." Play these demons exactly as you would for any other, with Stamina rolls for placement in the combat sequence, for instance. Most importantly, think of them as conferring their Special Damage onto their wielders, rather than "using" the power in some sort of simultaneous way. No one can "hold" actions in Sorcerer.
BL> Check.
me wrote: Secondly, I got the idea (from somewhere) that the binding strength can be added to combat rolls for such demons, at the demon's option if the binding is in its favor. Is this true in any way?
Ron Edwards wrote:
Um, no. The only time that would apply is if it's attacking its Binder.
BL> Check. Not sure where I got that...
In reverse order - that could be either Special Damage (fire) or Warp, depending on the details, but yes, Big + [whatever] sounds like the way to go.
BL> Cool. I presently have the power down as "Big + Special Damage + Warp + Travel (it moves under its own will)" so I think we've got all the bases covered ;-)
Ron Edwards wrote:
As for the area affect, that's going to be interesting. See, Sorcerer isn't really Champions; you can't "bloat" an ability through a modifier. The best way to handle this, I think, is simply to set the area (say, a 25' diameter circle or something like that) as a given, and have everyone in that area roll against the demon's single roll.
BL> Check. This is going to get ugly...
Ron Edwards wrote:
Also, the plant-grow effect is an entirely different ability, based on Vitality, so that has to be handled on its own.
BL> Check.
me wrote: Fourthly, can Demons perform Necromancy? (My gut instinct is no, because they have no humanity.) Particularly, one of the demons is a sword that can Mark people, and I thought it might be interesting to allow to to kill its Marks for bonus dice on various rolls.
Ron Edwards wrote:
Let me take this from the top. First, yes, you can have a demon do as you describe. Kill its Marks, get bonus dice. Sounds cool.
BL> Great. But how does this work, systematically? Does this count as a power? Necromancy gives bonus dice = humanity, but this isn't Necromancy. Does this just give bonus dice through the "Bonus dice for drama" system, or is there a secondary system effect?
me wrote: Lastly, when fighting multiple people -- I have considered using "stacking successes" to model big crowds of unimportant people -- the highest skilled one rolls a base attack which is "added to," in the usual manner, by the weaker. Is this reasonable?
Ron Edwards wrote:
I have no idea what you mean, I'm afraid. Can you clarify? You might have to give me a lot more context for the scene/confrontation you're envisioning.
BL> Valamir hit this on the head perfectly, actually. The scene I have is something like the lone Sorcerer, wielding his Bad-Ass Demon Weapon, surrounded by hoardes of Chaos Beast Men (or whatever mook de jour), slaughtering them left and right and possibly even calling out "Blood and Souls!" The problem is that I don't want to handle 10+ combatants in the Sorcerer combat system. My idea was to pick one combatant as the "main guy," and have the other combatants roll their attacks, initially, to give bonus dice to that "main guy's" attack.
Example: The Beastmen
There is a warchief = Stamina 4
The rest of the beastmen (let us say that there are six) are Stamina 3
My idea was the roll all of the other beastmen first, and then roll over the success onto the warchief's attack. So I would roll 18 dice against the Sorcerer, look for successes, and then add that to 4 (the warchiefs total) and roll that as the actual attack.
Valamir's solution is more graceful, I think, though less random.
me wrote: Further, am I correct in assuming that one cannot take a defensive action after having launched an attack -- you're essentially down to 1 dice for all your defenses?
Ron Edwards wrote:
You are incorrect - significantly so. Once a character has launched his or her attack, all the character's defensive rolls are at full dice. It's getting hit before you go (and choosing not to abort) that has the one-die defense - nothing else.
BL> Check. And color me relieved.
yrs--
--Ben
On 12/18/2003 at 6:35pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Assorted Questions of Demon Abilities
Hi there,
More technicalities ...
You don't need the Travel ability for the fire-demon to move on its own. Demons can always move on their own, unless they are conceived otherwise. Many Object demons are so conceived, such that they don't move on their own, but (a) the fire-demon doesn't seem to be one and (b) even if it were, the no-movement part is an optional add-on. Relax whatever constraints the word "object demon" put on your mind.
Regarding the beast-men or whatever, Ralph is on the money. Here's why.
Basically, a mob of the sort you describe is not actually a bunch of individuals. It's an opponent unto itself. The characters within it are never described as actually doing anything individually - "a sword" or "a claw" leaps out from the mass to rake at the character, perhaps some faces are seen briefly ... but that's it.
Now for my warning. As soon as opponents get any individuality to them, they become far more dangerous. In "The Slithering Shadow," Conan surprises a guy while running around in these shadowy corridors, and they mix it up like no one's business - it's clear that Conan can't just "swing" and take the guy down. And that's a throwaway scene. In "The Phoenix on the Sword," he's outnumbered and would be killed if it weren't for some skullduggery going on that he wasn't aware of.
Elric or not, "blood and souls" or not, mad chaos-hordes or not, beware of power-fantasy becoming the point rather than the engine.
Best,
Ron
On 12/18/2003 at 6:52pm, Ben Lehman wrote:
RE: Assorted Questions of Demon Abilities
Ron Edwards wrote: Hi there,
More technicalities ...
BL> Mmm... technicalities.
Ron Edwards wrote:
You don't need the Travel ability for the fire-demon to move on its own. Demons can always move on their own, unless they are conceived otherwise. Many Object demons are so conceived, such that they don't move on their own, but (a) the fire-demon doesn't seem to be one and (b) even if it were, the no-movement part is an optional add-on. Relax whatever constraints the word "object demon" put on your mind.
BL> This is all well and good. That said, the concept of streams of fire, leaping through the air, twisting and turning, burning on nothing in flight, seems to imply some sort of Travel to me. Perhaps this is totally unnecessary. To some degree, it is a moot point, as Stamina is higher than Lore for this demon.
Ron Edwards wrote:
Now for my warning. As soon as opponents get any individuality to them, they become far more dangerous. In "The Slithering Shadow," Conan surprises a guy while running around in these shadowy corridors, and they mix it up like no one's business - it's clear that Conan can't just "swing" and take the guy down. And that's a throwaway scene. In "The Phoenix on the Sword," he's outnumbered and would be killed if it weren't for some skullduggery going on that he wasn't aware of.
Elric or not, "blood and souls" or not, mad chaos-hordes or not, beware of power-fantasy becoming the point rather than the engine.
BL> Me and my guys are right behind you. Moral struggles first. Everything else second.
Thanks very much for your fast and accurate responses. Our first session is on Friday, so I should have an actual play post up on the weekend.
yrs--
--Ben