Strictly speaking, the big brown hardback shipped to stores in '02 is the Second Edition, but for most of us it was the first one we saw. So I'm not sure of the exact numbering.

Anyways:

Assuming Jake, Rick and Company were ever inclined or insane enough to consider a revised edition of TROS, what would your desired changes be? This is not intended as a criticism of the game as it stands -- I think we all are united in our universal approval of a great product -- but more a sort of thought experiment about directions of evolution, if any.

I would have three suggestions myself.

1) A revised skills system that rated skills as a positive add to the die pool of your Stat, rather than a lower-is-better TN to your roll. Since combat proficiencies and sorcery pools all work on the more-dice-is-better idea, I rather like the idea of skills being smoothed out to work the same way. A simple five-step ranking system (Novice, Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, Grandmaster) would keep the dice pools to reasonable sizes and would allow the TN of a task to determine its difficulty, rather than having to figure out how many extra successes are needed in a noncombat situation.

2) A rule for automatic successes. I use the following:
- For TNs of 6 or below, every 3 dice in the pool can be traded in for an automatic success.
- For TNs of 7, every 4 dice can be traded in for a success.
- For TNs of 8, every 6 dice can be traded in for a success.
- For TNs of 9, every 8 dice can be traded in for a success.
- For TNs of 10, every 10 dice can be traded in for a success.

Needless to say, this is never used in combat or sorcery, but for some situations where you just want to compare and go, this can move things along faster.

3) A minor change to Attribute setup. Instead of making Toughness a primary Temporal attribute, make it a Derived attribute equal to 2 + (ST+EN)/4 -- giving an effective range of 3 to 7 for most people; this addresses some of the concerns I've read about some PCs who are more damage resistant naked than others are in chainmail. Collapse Wit and Per into one attribute, Perception, to balance this off.

Once again, this is not intended to say that I think things suck as they are -- these are just some ideas about where a revised edition could go. Feel as free as you like to say, "You're an idiot, you can't improve on perfection!" But if anyone has other similar ideas, I'd like to read about them too.

I think that we shold wait until TFOB and sorcery and the fey come out - and Jakes oriental game... and find out what home rule "fixes" really work.

Then we can evaluate what we have, and jake can make an organized distillation of that material to create a polished 2nd edition.

I'd entirely disagree with your proposal for the skill system. I like it the way it is, and while it may seem slightly non-intuitive at first, it makes logical sense when you use it, and works well. The initial awkwardness goes away quickly.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If it's purring like a kitten, don't break it.

Careful Lance, this board once gave me the flame roasting of a life time when I once said it sounded like a bumper sticker of mine: "Government Philosophy: If it aint broke, fix it till it is."
The next ten posts were telling me where Icould put said bumper sticker.

All in all though I agree with you and even Jaeger on this one.

What I really want is a collectors edition, with the core book, some of OBAM and TFOB (the meat and potatoes minus the flash for $ sake) all in one hard bound book with the wrinkles ironed out and an organization incorporating the materials of all three books in an organized manner.

drooooool.

The combinations of books seems like a good idea. It might even save Jake and co. some money. Less materials needed to cover 1 big book than 3 or 4 seperate books... also less time shuffling through each book seperately as a seneschal.(Again, I state I'm lazy) However, I doubt that they will offer such a thing with just the 'meat n potatoes' without the rest of it. And should they offer such a combination set of books.. it will most likely be priced at or near what it would cost to get all of them seperate.
Another big advantage of doing one 'big' book is that it saves time in printing. This can save someone the headache of ordering all of the books and not having to wait for one or two or three of them to be printed again. *shrug*
Just some thoughts on that.

-Ingenious

I like the idea of a three-in-one book, too. That would make things so much easier than lugging around multiple books, and it would be cool just because it is a three-in-one book... or maybe I'm just crazy.....

Stephen wrote:
Assuming Jake, Rick and Company were ever inclined or insane enough to consider a revised edition of TROS, what would your desired changes be? This is not intended as a criticism of the game as it stands -- I think we all are united in our universal approval of a great product -- but more a sort of thought experiment about directions of evolution, if any.

I wouldn't change the system a lick, not a whit, not a speck, nothing. I'm sold. I'm a Riddler, a convert, a true blue lover of SA's and the way the whole system fits together.

The book, however, I'd like to see some changes in the book's organization and editing. I've tabbed my book, which has made the page-flipping easier to manage and more time efficient.

The racial attributes in the back and only vaguely gone over in the front where the Chargen stuff is, again increasing the page flipping.

The manuevers should be detailed in a much more concise and clear way. If I understand the system and how it works I should be able to look it over and figure it out. As it is I have to read it entirely over to figure any one part of a manuever out. It should be written like Gene Ha's manuever cards are set up.

I'd like to see a re-tooling of the language in the Sorcery chapter, taking out the scientific talk.

I am picking at nits here. I love this game and have one game of it going with other campaigns continuously popping up in my head as concepts I want to Riddle. But if there is a 3rd edition to be had, that is the direction I'd like the book to go in.

I'd have to say I'm with Paka on this one. There are various houserules that I play with, but I don't feel that they add anything to the game in specific. If a second/third edition were to be done, I'd mostly want to it to be a bit more clear and concise, some small changes in organization of information and wording, and the addition of equipment mentioned in the rules but for some reason or other (like Jake's computer eating it, or what have you) didn't make it into the rules.

Character Generation: More emphasis on the SAs. The community has come to know how important they are, but someone picking up the book for the first time may not get the same overwhelming impression of how important they are. Likewise, I feel that they should be chosen immediately after Concept, before priorities are even chosen. Additionally, it wouldn't hurt to have a terse description of each of the races of man and fey and their racial mods listed in the chargen section, with page numbers to tell the player where to look for more complete information. The skill packets should be listed in the chargen chapter, as well as Gifts and Flaws.

Maneuvers should be listed in the combat section, as should weapon defaults. Yes, it'd make Chapter 3 a much slimmer chapter, but that's okay by me. Just the skills, rules on how to make the rolls, and character advancement rules is plenty enough for a "training" section, I think. Armor stats should be moved back with weapon stats. Having to go to two different sections for weapons and armor is somewhat of a pain. Add in things like the arming glove, and piece-meal armor stats (and prices in the equipment section..)

But yanno.. I'd not be bent outta shape if the book were never revised, either. All of the changes I'd see done are minor quibbles, with no real rules changes whatsoever.

Stephen,

As far as attributes go, I would wholeheartedly agree. I've seen other systems that combine physical and mental attributes to derive a combat skill/attribute and it's usually defined as perception. Personally, I think Wit as it's defined in TROS is an integral part of perception. It just simplifies things.

Ditto on Toughness, though maybe I wouldn't use that formula. Str should basically always outstrip Toughness (since mechanically, it acts like armor), except when the weakest attack the toughest. Toughness should always be harder to come by, most likely by being more expensive one way or another. They might have to rework armor weapon values to make it closer to perfect though, probably just not worth it at this point.

I also have a problem with Sorcery Attributes. These att's are derived from four physical and four mental attributes. That requires players wanting a sorcerer character to put too many eggs in too many baskets.

For one, thing, needing to be good in just as many physical areas as mental areas goes against everything gamers/fans of fantasy imagine as being the "source" or "heart" or whatever of magic. We're used to imagining sickly, weak, or maybe even clumsy magicians. Magic should be more mentally focused. I hate to say it, but I even accept the Dnd approach of: High Intelligence is really all you need to be better at magic (though high dex and con can certainly be useful, but those are useful for everybody).

In general, I'm just not a fan of secondary attributes derived from a host of primary attributes. I'm just a segregationist that way, it's my style. I'd prefer a system where the attributes are flexible, where it's easy to add or subtracts ones that you just don't buy into, or if you want greater specificity/division, you can create them easily or use limitations/advantages on your attributes (like something in Champions). This is my only real gripe against TROS. I have some problems with specific armor/weapon values (mostly armor, as the weapon part is extremely well done), but nothing that isn't super easily fixed by house ruling.

Second, in the current system, the physical derived att's come from 4 physical and only 3 mental. I.E. it just isn't fair.

Anyone with me?

-Alan

p.s. other than the above gripes, and:

1. that I just hate dice pools, personal preference

2. and also breaking down combat into second by second rounds/exchanges, whatever, another preference. But if you want believable detail, maybe you can't avoid second by second processing... -

I really think this is the best medieval combat system out there, period.

Best things about TROS

1. Great combat maneuvers and the weapon styles thing. Pretty much all you could ask for and these guys are the first to do it right. No hassles with learning each and every weapon proficiency like in older versions of Dnd (and the current version for certain classes). And it actually makes sense!

2. Simple, elegant handling of initiative. It's based on actual thought processes, reactions, and actions, moment to moment. Initiative, given that both parties are aware of each other and both are generally prepared, is a choice. A required choice. Awesome.

3. 6 melee weapon reaches! That's right, six. In trying to figure out my own perfect little system that answered to all my whims, I came up with 5. I was definitely wrong. After reading the weapon descriptions and research Jake's done, I had to agree. 6 is perfect. And need I mention the equally simple mechanic for handling these reaches in combat? Just like initiative, awesome.

4. Half swording is pretty friggin cool.

5. All the different weapons, and all their different effects, almost 100% if not 100% accurate.

6. Lethal combat is a much needed change.

7. Great location damage tables. And like initiative, targeting general hit locations is a required choice! Perfect.

8. You really can fight a little more aggressively when wearing a full harness (Full plate).

9. Despite all this detail, combat is fast moving

10. Spirtual Attribute's actually make me think about roleplaying my character and using the ones I have in appropriate situations, so the GM gives me more! And these same SA's are your "experience points!"

Didn't mean to turn this into a super-long rant! oops.

The most important thing to me would be a book which is stream-lined, design-wise. Where it is easy to find the appropriate rules, because flipping through this book in-game is a nightmare.

Here are my suggestions for a possible later edition:

1) Streamlining the layout. As it is, too much information (SA's, Attributes) is divided into two or more places in the book. This is confusing and could result in page-flipping.

2) Typos and grammar errors. Not a major thing, but obviously not great, either.

3) Explanations, explanations, explanations... This is the major, huge, most important point. SA's, how they affect the game, how to use them and how to build characters around them are, while covered, still confusing to many. They certainly merit their own section into the Seneschal chapter. Also, since the combat system is so unique, and especially terrain rolls seem to be confusing many people, writing an example combat with multiple opponents and improvised terrain rolls should go a long way towards clearing things up. Introducing basic tactics.

4) Changing the tone of the book. It sounds pretty condescending at times, and seems to over-hype itself. I'd prefer to have the book do the impressing the reader, rather than assurances written by the writer. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, though... We Finnish people value modesty when speaking about ourselves, and dislike bragging.

Yes, streamlining the book would be a great thing..
As I see it now, trying to put tabs on the major sections in order to reduce page flipping... it is still alot of page flipping and so forth and sometimes having to consult an index which is not even separated in terms of the letters, now it IS alphabetized..but you can A. hardly read the words and B. it takes awhile to find the starting section of the index by letter.(nit-picking)

Since our foray into the world of this system.. all of us players even have books.. to minimize search times for certain manouvers, game mechanics, etc etc. Most of the stuff about characters in particular however is well covered by Leybourne's character generator(though not completely)

Anyways, even with a new modem my internet connection still drops frequently for no apparent reason.. so I had better finish this post before I get dropped and have to type the whole damn thing again.

-Ingenious

There are tabs of a sort.. But if you're like me, you don't even use them. People have complimented the marginal notes, and I think they're a good idea, but I'm so used to scanning the page that I never even think to look at the lower outside margin, where there are tab-like references.

@#$%! Lost my post.

OT compliments



• Lovely weapon length rule.
• Straightforward surprise rule. (Gnashing teeth, thinking of Gygax.)
• Multiple opponents rule elegantly handles a small scale fracass.
• Thx for spelling out Full Evasion.



Nit picking



• Proficiencies: how vs what; secondary = primary - default; mind-numbing repitition of common members. These contribute to learning curve. Some unnecessarily.
• Please gray out the swords background in the appendices to improve fore text legibility.



Nearly every calculation I've seen I find to be intuitive, and the range of the various ratings all seem to be balanced, but I almost wish there were only two scores: physical and mental. That would probably be too radical a departure, though (i.e. TROS lite).

Also, (veering wildly OT), regarding range weapons: I follow the concept (i.e. processing surroudings), and I see how refreshing the MP reflects that experience, but the effect is to disenfranchise the category. For two reasons: (1) the loss of a round is more grievous than other kinds of penalties and (2) it's doubly true in a two-exchange round. Maybe Jake wanted range at the margins of combat and sought to feature prep reduction expenses. Even so, I think playability loses out to aesthetic.

Jake would probably roll in his grave about the sword background comment, but he's not dead.

He's heard that comment from my early posts on to this day. He's definitely aware of it.

Actually, it's going to put me in my grave. At that time printing quality at our budget was extremely unpredictable (those of you that can, compare the first to the second printings...the second cost me about 1/3rd as much per book!). The swords were meant to be barely visible in both versions...oh well.

Jake

Apologies.

Here's something I did to reduce page-flipping:

I took Post-it stickers, cut them into small pieces, and flipped through the book, searching for important pages. Whenever I found one, I took one piece, wrote what was on the page ("Earning SA's", "Skills", "Maneuvers" etc.) and attached it to the top of the page so that it sticks about a centimeter (0,4 inches) off the top of the page - enough to be easily readable, but not enough to mar the appearance of the book that much.

I'm not sure if you were familiar with this idea, but it helped me.

It appears that Mr. Cook has annoyed the TROS Gods.

Anyways, Thanaeon provides a useful suggestion to those that wish to use that method. I on the other-hand..have seen many many RPG books done like this(my seneschal's copy for example)..but to put a tab on each section of the book as it is now.. would result in alot of tabs...too many in fact. This is due to the fact that not all of the information about a particular subject is grouped together into one nice little spot to reduce page flipping AND to reduce the number of tabs needed.

To start off with, right after explaining what the hell an RPG is, and into book 2.. contain everything about SA's there.. because this is afterall the biggest facet of the game and also the driving force behind each and every character. It *belongs* in that section. However, I do like how book 3(training) flows into book 4(combat)...which flows into 5(nature) and into 6(magic). Magic would naturally be based off of nature, so there is logic in that set-up.. and to put training before combat also.
Just tweak it.. so us lazy people can sit back and have a reduced work-load whenever a problem rises. I don't necessarily like having to thumb through the book everytime spell is casted, or I pull a tricky move, etc.. especially during a novice GM's trial running of TROS and so forth.. so I can see everyone's frustrations with having to consult the book frequently. It is like being stuck in bumper to bumper traffic, having all of the players AND the GM looking through the book for a particular rule on something or another.
edit: When I talk of SA's in book 2 I also want to see the rules for character progression in the back of book 3 put right behind the SA's. Also, in book two.. possibly lump a compressed version of all of the nations and so forth into it. explaining the bonuses, what the religions of those countries are, inhabitants, etc. So put the national stuff in there so that when reading the character progression part.. a person making a character can get a basic feel for roleplaying suggestions in terms of nationality and such. Also have a link from that paraphrasing into book 7 where they are fully discussed.(though this all might be over-kill and more pages and ink and time and money than it might be worth to do)

This, and other complaints about TFOB, impatience, etc etc. I'm sure this is a common phenomena as well, due to the many people who have been waiting to run mass combat, sieges and the like. It might also add to the number of potential customers, as many of us have seen through some seriously stuuuupid reviews of the game(by people that know little to nothing about it) that one of the biggest downfalls of TROS is a lack of a strong mass combat system.

Though I'm sure Jake and Brian hear enough about that from me. Might even be more annoying than Mr Cook's comments on the swords..

-Ingenious
(sorry for the rambling)

Personally, I have 12 such tabs in my copy of the book. (I've yet to add sorcery tabs - that should be 2 or 3 more.) I don't think this is too much, since the tabs are pretty small. And to me, it does beat having to search for the sections.

Bah, point conceded..

I kind of like the quickstart skill system better than the one in the main book - Broad, well-rounded archetype oriented skills that you can interpret openly and creatively during play. It's like Lejendary Adventures, which has a great rules-light skill system. I would make them just slightly more granular than they are in quickstart though. Of course, I'm probably the only one who would like this, and I think it would be too radical of a change for the game anyway...

Actually I have had some problems with combining skill packets in order to make certain archtypes... and I'd like to see everyone's suggestions for certain types of characters in terms of skills and so forth....in another post.

-Ingenious

kenjib wrote: I kind of like the quickstart skill system better than the one in the main book - Broad, well-rounded archetype oriented skills that you can interpret openly and creatively during play. It's like Lejendary Adventures, which has a great rules-light skill system. I would make them just slightly more granular than they are in quickstart though. Of course, I'm probably the only one who would like this, and I think it would be too radical of a change for the game anyway...

Thanaeon wrote:

kenjib wrote: I kind of like the quickstart skill system better than the one in the main book - Broad, well-rounded archetype oriented skills that you can interpret openly and creatively during play. It's like Lejendary Adventures, which has a great rules-light skill system. I would make them just slightly more granular than they are in quickstart though. Of course, I'm probably the only one who would like this, and I think it would be too radical of a change for the game anyway...

House ruling this should be the very essence of simplicity. Simply, instead of skill packages, choose professions, and perhaps add a third according to the MA attribute.

Unbreak the hand of the poor sword-wielding barbarian on the cover.