I've been wondering about those intelligent magic swords once so popular in D&D that never actually really worked because the only way the DM could influence the player was to completely take over the character - railroading or what.

It struck me recently that the SAs in TRoS could do the job perfectly. A sword that had it's own, presumably unswerving SA and which effectively gave that SA to the wielder could work wonderfully. Only by acting in accordance with the SA would the sword provide a bonus (the SA as normal). If the sword's SA is used, it increases as usual, and the character could spend the points to improve himself, reinforcing the behaviour demanded by the sword.

Of course the character could ignore the SA but would then gain no benefit from the sword (and there would always be the temptation when thing got tight...). Think Stormbringer.

I know this is a bit of a diversion from the player-controlled SAs normally used but it would make magic weapons a damn sight more interesting. What do people think and am I missing anything obvious?

Dave

Having only had an intelligent sword in D&D once, it was a game-breaking apparatus.. only because it could heal once per day and could see invisible and detect eeeeevil at the will of my character.(alignments matched so no prob with that). However, usually in TROS a magical weapon loses its luster unlike those found in D&D. You could as a seneschal disavow this, or modify the rules for special occasion. How about making an intelligent weapon having SA's happen due to a sorcerer summoning and imprisoning a soul or spirit into the weapon... and then that weapon would take on the personality of said trapped soul/spirit/demon, etc. This would make for something spectacular in a storyline and such if it has magic in it... but I would not make it commonplace. And then you would get your SA's for the sword from the personality of the person, thing, etc trapped inside of it. Say, if the soul was good.. the sword could give SA dice in situations where it was defending the weak, oppressed, poor, etc. An evil one can just be brutal however... so don't make that too powerful.

This also can be tied into Sirogit's ghost/undead and spirit like idea somehow, I just lack the brainpower and will at the moment to tell you how. Well, okay I might as well state the idea. One could imprison the recently released soul of a dead person that has yet to turn into a ghost(therefore being easier to do than summon and imprison a demon, etc) into a weapon.... due to not having to summon a damned demon in the first place, it'd just be a simple imprisonment spell.
And also you could summon a ghost into it, and since ghosts can have SA's(as a house-rule) you could possibly use those SA's and maybe a few more as the weapon's SA's. And also you could even take this further by imprisoning the soul of a great swordsman or warrior that is recently fallen into the sword, gaining his personality and SA's... as well as possibly boosting the proficiency the PC wielding it has as a way to show that the sould of the swordsman is trying to teach it's wielder. Or something.

YMMV
-Ingenious

However, usually in TROS a magical weapon loses its luster unlike those found in D&D.

The magical weapon in TROS isnt an item that is constantly around from what I was told. Then again I havent read the ENTIRE sorcery session yet. but from what I understand is that a magic weapon has a certain amount of magic points.. and those wear out right?

*shrug*
You're the author dude, if I say something incorrect, you can at least drop an intellectual nuke on me.

-Ingenious

Have a search around the forum; the idea of magical items with SA's has been discussed before, at length (in fact, I think there's a link to the discussion in the forum directory sticky).

It's also something that Jake and I have discussed and been thinking about for possible inclusion into TFOB. In fact, I've already started it :-)

Brian.

I've given out a magic sword in one of my games before. The PC, Roland, performed several dangerous quests for a reclusive sorcerer and in the end his reward was an ancient fey blade.

In addition to the SAs Passion: Hatred of Gols and Conscience I gave the Longsword the properties of a Morningstar. Needless to say it was a very powerful weapon, but then again by this time in the campaign the PCs were powerful enough to take on just about anything short of a dragon or giant.

I have always liked the idea that the magical weapon gains its power and/or SA's by having a soul or spirit trapped in it. A similar concept to something I'm doing in a story I've been writing. Finding out that your weapon isn't simply enchanted, but it actually has someone's eternal soul trapped inside it might make some more religious or pious characters think twice about using it. The moral dilema of perpetuating the imprisonment of an innocent person's soul. Or could the soul be freed once it's purpose was complete, SA fulfilled?

OR... was the soul willingly given up? Did a sorcerer sacrifice himself to give an ancient blade some SA or power or Destiny that he forsaw was going to be of grave need in the future? Or could you summon a demon and trap it in the weapon? What gruesome and powerful traits would that have? Would weilding such a weapon bring one closer to possession(see other topic on possession)? Once again, the moral conflict of using it.

Could you possibly use the summon vagary to bring the spirit trapped in the blade to the surface so you could communicate with it? Is it even consious of it's surroundings, or is it for all intents and purposes an innanimate energysource?

Would a character even know the sword has an SA until he encountered such a situation involving that SA? In that case, how many of these "SoulBlades" could pass unknown through history?

Or do you really want to be a jerk about it.... and when you kill your archnemisis, imprison his soul into the blade that killed him. Ooooh the posibilities are endless. But I still like the moral issue about using someone's soul...

Exactly the sort of questions TRoS is meant to engender.. Not only "what is worth fighting for?" but "what are you willing to do to meet your goals?"

This is very similar in concept to the jivatmas of Jennifer Roberson's Tiger and Del novels, something that never occurred to me in other discussions of magical weapons with SAs. The jivatmas were called "blooding blades" because when they were made, they were made to collect the soul of the first living thing they'd killed, and gain all of the skills and prowess of that person. The holder of the jivatma typically went and found an honored enemy to kill.. But one of the main character's, Del, was so driven by her desire for revenge that she asked her own teacher into the circle. It was implied that he agreed knowing full well why she asked him, and she killed him, taking his own soul and skill into the blade, but also, because of her strong drives and perhaps his own skill, her blade was special in that it could summon up the power of an ice storm.

Moreso than the uber-ness of the sword though it was the consequences of her actions that made it such a powerful story. She was hunted by the rest of the people at the place where she learned to fight, and eventually, once her vengeance was played out, had to return to be judged for her crime.

In other, briefer, words.. Yes, the soul/demon trapped within the blade giving it it's power is definitely a good concept for raising the kind of moral questions that give TRoS it's definition. There is so much that can be done with this concept.

Souls trapped in blades? Hmm... maybe there has been a cabal of human sorcerers who have been spending the past few centuries/millenia fashioning such enchanted items... and that might account for some/many of the missing fey souls...

Just a thought. Interesting concept though.

Brian

Taking the trapping of Fey souls into weaponry a bit further, maybe that ties into the Fey's infertility? Afterall, the Fey that are trapped in weapons can not be reborn until the weapon is destroyed, or until some powerful sorcerer releases them from it. It could be that no Fey have been born for 800 years because back then a mad sorcerer was imprisoning Fey souls into weapons and using them to dominate the world? And maybe this same sorcerer placed a curse upon the Fey; that none shall be born, or re-born until their brothers and sister's souls are free.
*shrug* Who knows.

-Ingenious

Ingenious wrote: Taking the trapping of Fey souls into weaponry a bit further, maybe that ties into the Fey's infertility?

If I made a sword with a "purpose", I'd use both SAs and "reverse SAs" potentially. Plus 2 dice when you're fighting the enemies of the Fey, -3 if used against the Fey. That sort of thing.

-Jeff

Edit. Bah, hit submit too fast. You could get a lot more complicated, like a sword with +1 die in battle, but that subtracts 2 dice from all social rolls while in the character's possesion, and for one week if the character loses the sword (withdrawal's a bitch).

Given the way magic and combat work in TROS, and just because of the type of game it is, I think every magic sword should basically be a legendary artifact. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is some ultra-powerful weapon that makes its wielder invulnerable. Rather, it should be named (even if it is something so mundane and "The Sword of Antarchus"), with a set of deeds, mis-deeds, and legends surrounding it. Should it be known that a character is in possession of one of these, it might almost not be worth the trouble to own it. Iin fact, it might be a burden the character would prefer to live without (hmmm, interesting idea for an adventure).

The best known weapons might have a well-known appearance (well-known according to the legend, the reality might be different). There could be mundane copies of these made for certain people, for vanity, fashion, or perhaps just to satisfy the secret fantasies of one who has the money to pay for such a copy (much in the same way that people buy reproduction swords based on certain well-known historic or fantastic swords today).

I really like thinking about the effects a magic item would have OUTSIDE of combat. Some weapons might not even be that powerful, and yet the owner of such a weapon might wield great social/political power as the sword might could him a certain legitimacy in spiritual or political matters.

Steve

Jaif wrote: If I made a sword with a "purpose", I'd use both SAs and "reverse SAs" potentially. Plus 2 dice when you're fighting the enemies of the Fey, -3 if used against the Fey. That sort of thing.

-Jeff

Edit. Bah, hit submit too fast. You could get a lot more complicated, like a sword with +1 die in battle, but that subtracts 2 dice from all social rolls while in the character's possesion, and for one week if the character loses the sword (withdrawal's a bitch).

tauman wrote: Given the way magic and combat work in TROS, and just because of the type of game it is, I think every magic sword should basically be a legendary artifact. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is some ultra-powerful weapon that makes its wielder invulnerable. Rather, it should be named (even if it is something so mundane and "The Sword of Antarchus"), with a set of deeds, mis-deeds, and legends surrounding it. Should it be known that a character is in possession of one of these, it might almost not be worth the trouble to own it. Iin fact, it might be a burden the character would prefer to live without (hmmm, interesting idea for an adventure).

I forsee carrying around such a weapon giving a character an automatic Good/Bad reputation. Given the individual weapon's history.

Back after reading all the directory stuff (and I'll still have missed a lot of it).

Anyway, great thread people.

Jake Norwood wrote:

tauman wrote: Given the way magic and combat work in TROS, and just because of the type of game it is, I think every magic sword should basically be a legendary artifact. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is some ultra-powerful weapon that makes its wielder invulnerable. Rather, it should be named (even if it is something so mundane and "The Sword of Antarchus"), with a set of deeds, mis-deeds, and legends surrounding it. Should it be known that a character is in possession of one of these, it might almost not be worth the trouble to own it. Iin fact, it might be a burden the character would prefer to live without (hmmm, interesting idea for an adventure).

I agree ab-so-lutely.

Jake

Hugin,

Read the recent thread about demonic possession here on these boards, and I'm sure you can find some way to incorporate these two ideas together to do Charnal Gods.

Funny thing, I was thinking along these same lines, despite the fact that I've never even played Sorcerer, or read the Charnal Gods supplement. I do own Sorcerer, and I've heard the basic concepts of Charnal Gods, though.

As for how to get them to accept the weapons.. Easily done, so says I.. Tell the players your idea for the campaign, if they like it, have them make characters with powerful drives and passions that will make it make sense for them to accept the two-edged (pun intended) sword of the Fell Weapons. Great power, and great price.. Would make for an intense campaign, I think.

More reading! I'm glad I got here before there were too many pages of previous posts - only 40! :)

Charnel Gods is a fantastic idea, giving the players great power at the price of a demonic deal and the risk of bringing the world to an end if they overuse it. Talk about power going with responsibility. Also Sorcerer and Sword offers brilliant advice on setting up a fantasy campaign, easily applicable to games other than Sorcerer. A good base for TRoS I reckon.

Anyway, thanks Wolfen.

Dave

It's funny you guys should think of this.

I'm planning on running a TRoS game, but using some of the Sorcer & Sword ideas, including the collectively developed map and setting, and that sort of thing.

I'll report back on how it goes!