I got the chance to play a lot during the past week. During this time, I have come up with a few questions.
First, how should evasive attack be handled when you're facing multiple opponents? For that matter, how should any action be handled against multiple opponents?
Also, why is it that putting a spear point at the end of a quarter-staff makes it more difficult to parry with? Do you use a different technique?
And what is the cost for the new horse breeds in oBaM?
And given that most of my PC's are more or less typical adventurers, they are almost always homeless. That means that they usually have a *lot* of money on their hands, since thy don't have to buy a house. Suppose they buy any equipment they want, and it costs a total of 5 gold. If they're Low Freeman, they still have 10 gold to spare. If a Peasant, the they may not have that kind of money left, but they'll come with a longsword, chain shirt, leather for the extremites, pot helm, full travelling equipment, bow and quiver, three sets of clothing and a few silvers to spare!
In some cases it would work, i.e. if the Peasant has sold his house and everything to buy this equipment, but that is usually not the case.
One solution would be to enforce new costs that I haven't thought of. Any ideas?
Another is to simply lower the starting budget. But with how much?
Help is really appreciated.

While you bring up some thoughts that I am not qualified to answer, my first experience with TROS was with a GM that stated that each character essentially cashed in their houses, life savings, nest-eggs.. etc... in order to fund their adventuring careers. This brings up the logical point of which why the different social classes start with such varying amounts of money. A peasant's life savings could amount to only 5 gold, because he IS a peasant after-all and worked for cheap, but yet lived cheaply. This gets scaled up a bit towards the upper classes too. And if you're seriously worried about the amount of gold each player has, maybe they bought their equipment from a country that instituted heavy taxation. This would take their remaining cash reserves down a bit.. but I always liked to carry around some money in an adventure as a precautionary measure.
I do know how to handle attacks against multiple opponents however, use terrain rolls.. keep the players moving about in the fighting.. it isn't like the old school vid-game of Mortal Kombat where it was all 2-dimensional fighting and such... I assume in your world there are trees to block some of the attackers, tables, chairs, horses, etc.
As to the other stuff, maybe Jake knows.. or someone more knowledgable in weaponry than I.

-Ingenious

"Also, why is it that putting a spear point at the end of a quarter-staff makes it more difficult to parry with? Do you use a different technique?"

Good question. Also, why is it harder to parry when holding a dagger than with bare hands? I think it's house rule time.

I would say that if the character doesn't spend some of their funding on housing and such, that they don't have any means of additional income, as described in the book. They've severed ties to any one place, and as such, don't get paid. See page 202, Sources of Wealth for more information on this.

Also, in the case of peasants, this could anger the lord that they worked for, depending on the circumstances under which they severed ties. Even high freemen usually work for someone, so there are story hooks for why they're wandering free as well. Unless the PCs specifically state something about it in their background stories, make 'em pony up to the consequences of being unattached.

As for evasive attack.. Use common sense. Essentially you're going backward from the opponent you're attacking. If you've not managed to maneuver to be facing only one opponent at a time, then the others may, depending on their relative positions, have a free shot at you.. or if they're right next to the man you're moving away from, they may have the same penalties to attack as that opponent.

Have you ever handled a quarterstaff? Have you ever handled a spear? I can't speak with total authority as my experience involves mock-up weapons, but as spears are exceedingly unbalanced (much of the weight is centered at the very end) they're not good defensive weapons.

Horse costs (my take):

Destrier: same as listed, page 205
Courser: same as listed, page 205
Palfrey: same as Riding horse, page 205
Rouncy: same as Work or Cart Horse, page 205
Garron: same as Pony, page 205

So a spear is more unbalanced than staves? Ok, it makes sense.
Good take on the horses, there.

On multiple opponents, I was refering to the cases where terrain rolls was not an option or if the terrain roll failed. In this case, it was in a street, which two PCs had to cover. That street was wide enough for four people to fight "side by side". After rolling a terrain roll to avoid being flanked, they *had* to fight two opponents each.

On the money subject, at what age is the character supposed to have the kind of money each social class recieves? I mean, a 19 year old is not going to have as much savings and property as someone in his thirties or forties, right?

Mokkurkalfe wrote: I mean, a 19 year old is not going to have as much savings and property as someone in his thirties or forties, right?

Caz wrote: "
Good question. Also, why is it harder to parry when holding a dagger than with bare hands? I think it's house rule time.

What do you think about parrying 'bare handed' when you are wearing plate armor? Would it really be much different from parrying with a buckler, in terms of effect at least? In both cases you would really be trying to redirect not block a swing.

What do you think about parrying 'bare handed' when you are wearing plate armor? Would it really be much different from parrying with a buckler, in terms of effect at least? In both cases you would really be trying to redirect not block a swing.

It would be notably less protection than parrying with a buckler.. Generally, the palm of the hand was covered by a leather glove; you can't really (and the more knowledgeable are free to correct me if I'm wrong) put plate into the palm of the hand and still expect to be able to flex the hand enough to grab things..

On the other hand, specially designed gloves (arming gloves) did have a light chain mesh in the hand.. but this was mostly to avoid being cut, I'd think, rather than offering full protection.

I can say with authority that a spear is no less balanced and no heavier than a staff, at least not noticable, so that theory is out the window.
If you have a dagger, it should be even easier than parrying with bare hands. When it's held underhand, you can use it just like your bare arm, but you can catch blows on the dagger instead of your flesh if you want. When overhand, it's just like a longer, sharp arm.
BTW, can anyone give me historical reference for arming gloves? Just curious.

Caz wrote: I can say with authority that a spear is no less balanced and no heavier than a staff, at least not noticable, so that theory is out the window.

toli wrote: What do you think about parrying 'bare handed' when you are wearing plate armor? Would it really be much different from parrying with a buckler, in terms of effect at least? In both cases you would really be trying to redirect not block a swing.

If you have a dagger, it should be even easier than parrying with bare hands. When it's held underhand, you can use it just like your bare arm, but you can catch blows on the dagger instead of your flesh if you want. When overhand, it's just like a longer, sharp arm.

Mokkurkalfe wrote: First, how should evasive attack be handled when you're facing multiple opponents? For that matter, how should any action be handled against multiple opponents?

Also, why is it that putting a spear point at the end of a quarter-staff makes it more difficult to parry with? Do you use a different technique?

And what is the cost for the new horse breeds in oBaM?

And given that most of my PC's are more or less typical adventurers, they are almost always homeless. That means that they usually have a *lot* of money on their hands, since thy don't have to buy a house. Suppose they buy any equipment they want, and it costs a total of 5 gold. If they're Low Freeman, they still have 10 gold to spare. If a Peasant, the they may not have that kind of money left, but they'll come with a longsword, chain shirt, leather for the extremites, pot helm, full travelling equipment, bow and quiver, three sets of clothing and a few silvers to spare!
In some cases it would work, i.e. if the Peasant has sold his house and everything to buy this equipment, but that is usually not the case.
One solution would be to enforce new costs that I haven't thought of. Any ideas?

On the spear thing, think of that DTN as the one handed DTN. Spears are used this way with shields, and when using a spear one handed, it's probably the worst parrying device in the world. Because no matter where you hold it, the length works against you. For two handed, I'd just assume that it's being handled like a quarterstaff for defense, and use that TN.

Why use a spear with a shield then? Sounds pretty lethal. Well, it's a mass formation weapon (and dirt cheap, too, especially if it's actually just a sharpened stick). So TFOB will cover that. Right Brian?

Mike

I'm still a bit confused on the dagger issue. So, I understand that if you just stand there, and you put your dagger between you and an incoming sword, you're probably gonna die. But, in my experience, it's no harder to put the dagger there than it is to put your arm there. And who would defend by just standing there and interposing the dagger? Sounds like some people have trouble with that though. I think a dagger makes defense easier than bare hands, from practical experience, and I really don't think I'm unique.
For an untrained person, yes, but an untrained person wouldn't have the proficiency.
Try this. Get a training dagger, and just defend vs. an unrmed person. It should be easier if you have any skill.
For spears, if it's a purely thrusting spear, the head is too light to change the balance. If it's a cutting head, it's almost a polearm and the blance will be slightly different, but still I'd save tht for a more granular world.
Defending with a spear one handed is best done vertically, (if it's not too long) so it's not hard either, and won't work against you, and it's still easy to thrust with from that position. But hey, if you're doing that you probably have a shield anyway.
I don't say anything I haven't tried either, I'm no BS artist. I've tried all these, and I've handled enough replicas.

Jake Norwood wrote:
Blocking or deflecting with an armored hand would work quite well I suppose, and you could treat it as a buckler if you liked.
Jake

Caz wrote: I'm still a bit confused on the dagger issue. So, I understand that if you just stand there, and you put your dagger between you and an incoming sword, you're probably gonna die. But, in my experience, it's no harder to put the dagger there than it is to put your arm there. And who would defend by just standing there and interposing the dagger? Sounds like some people have trouble with that though. I think a dagger makes defense easier than bare hands, from practical experience, and I really don't think I'm unique.
For an untrained person, yes, but an untrained person wouldn't have the proficiency.
Try this. Get a training dagger, and just defend vs. an unrmed person. It should be easier if you have any skill.
For spears, if it's a purely thrusting spear, the head is too light to change the balance. If it's a cutting head, it's almost a polearm and the blance will be slightly different, but still I'd save tht for a more granular world.
Defending with a spear one handed is best done vertically, (if it's not too long) so it's not hard either, and won't work against you, and it's still easy to thrust with from that position. But hey, if you're doing that you probably have a shield anyway.
I don't say anything I haven't tried either, I'm no BS artist. I've tried all these, and I've handled enough replicas.

It's not about vs. unarmed, just an example. Maybe the reason so many people think it's harder to parry w/a dagger, is because, like you said, they're trying to use a different motion than that of their arm. If you're holding it underhand, you have the option of blocking w/your arm vs. something that won't hurt it, or blocking w/the dagger on your arm. Either way, it's no more difficult. If you interpose your dagger or your arm, you do it with the length, so it's width/thickness does not enter into the equation. And since it'l laying on your arm or at a strong angle, neither does the part, or leverage.
Same if you hold it overhand. But, if you hold it overhand, a larger weapons leverage will work against you in a strike, but it's no harder to interpose your dagger than your hand, and if you have a proficiency, you should be stifling it to help negate the leverage.
Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong. Is the high dtn not representing your ability to defend with it, but how hard it is to stop blows from heavier weapons? If that's the case, the dtn should fluctuate depending on the weapon it's facing, shouldn't it? It should be same as hand for putting by thrusts, (or better) and unarmed and dagger attacks, but high vs. swung long weapons? It's no harder to defend against a rapier with a rondel dagger than a main gauche, but a left hand daggers guard makes it easier to trap a thrusting blade.

Here's something I whipped up I think I'll start using.
Dagger, atn 6 dtn 7

DTN + 1 per range increment of the weapn over the dagger, for defending vs. blows. (might try the same w/bare hands)
This works much like attacking vs. longer weapons, simulating the difficulty of closing the distance to stifle swung attacks of longer weapons, or for the untrained, the difficulty of stopping swung attacks by longer weapons in place.
It simply handles all the fluctuation in dtn. Thoughts?
A dagger designed to be used for parrying rapiers may have an abstract -1 dtn vs thrusts, or simply a lower activation cost for binding the opposing blade.

Here's another exercise. Spar unarmed vs. a sword. Then spar w/a dagger vs. the sword. Which one's easier to defend and attack with?

Here's another exercise. Spar unarmed vs. a sword. Then spar w/a dagger vs. the sword. Which one's easier to defend and attack with?

And then we all forget what parrying really is about. It's about re-directing attacks.. sending them off in a direction other than towards you. So instead of BLOCKING with aforementioned arm and it being 'FREAKING CHOPPED OFF'... you essentially swat at the thing in an attempt to send it in a different trajectory. It's also like palm-thrusting the thing out of the way... and if you're SMART about it when you're unarmed in the hand region, you'll be hitting the flat, non-razor sharp side of the sword. It's like the inverse of using a broadsword to break someone's clavicle... by hitting them with the flat side of the sword in order to have more surface area and force at the point of impact. Plus it's safer to do this way.. and most likely easier than with a dagger due to a dagger being shorter than an arm, not as easily articulated as a hand... etc etc etc.
Hell, even when parrying with a dagger it isn't like you're putting steel to steel in hopes of completely stopping the attack.. that would be outrageous to attempt. In rapier/dagger mode.. a parrying dagger such as a main gauche or other form of parrying dagger would be used to intersect the weapon.. and then you would 'turn' the parry and push the opponent's weapon away from you.. etc. etc.
Ash, you mention the common sense factor of the arm or other appendage taking damage that is doing the blocking... it depends on how you are parrying with the appendage.. if you're going to use sweeping moves to swat away the incoming weapon... or if you're going to be smart and try to take on the edged part with your arm/leg/whatever.
Hell, let's even talk about martial arts for a second. Anyone worth listening to in that field knows how to redirect punches, kicks.. etc.

*shrug*
-Ingenious

Ingenious wrote: And then we all forget what parrying really is about. It's about re-directing attacks.. sending them off in a direction other than towards you. So instead of BLOCKING with aforementioned arm and it being 'FREAKING CHOPPED OFF'... you essentially swat at the thing in an attempt to send it in a different trajectory. It's also like palm-thrusting the thing out of the way... and if you're SMART about it when you're unarmed in the hand region, you'll be hitting the flat, non-razor sharp side of the sword. It's like the inverse of using a broadsword to break someone's clavicle... by hitting them with the flat side of the sword in order to have more surface area and force at the point of impact. Plus it's safer to do this way.. and most likely easier than with a dagger due to a dagger being shorter than an arm, not as easily articulated as a hand... etc etc etc.
Hell, even when parrying with a dagger it isn't like you're putting steel to steel in hopes of completely stopping the attack.. that would be outrageous to attempt. In rapier/dagger mode.. a parrying dagger such as a main gauche or other form of parrying dagger would be used to intersect the weapon.. and then you would 'turn' the parry and push the opponent's weapon away from you.. etc. etc.
Ash, you mention the common sense factor of the arm or other appendage taking damage that is doing the blocking... it depends on how you are parrying with the appendage.. if you're going to use sweeping moves to swat away the incoming weapon... or if you're going to be smart and try to take on the edged part with your arm/leg/whatever.
Hell, let's even talk about martial arts for a second. Anyone worth listening to in that field knows how to redirect punches, kicks.. etc.

*shrug*
-Ingenious

Dude.
I was merely pointing out that the factors in calculating DTN's was acceptable to me. The whole thing makes sense to me. You only have to use a little bit of effort to swat something out of the way with your hands.
Now then, parrying with a dagger... involves more motion than with hands.

Example:
Say someone did an overhand diagonal-swing to my zone 4(left shoulder)
All I do is push the sword away as I pivot to where I am perpendicular to him.. and he would then be facing my left shoulder. I hope you see my point with that... It would be far more effortless to do than to attempt to just stand there and hope to redirect a cut such as that with a parrying dagger.

-Ingenious

Mokkurkalfe wrote: That means that they usually have a *lot* of money on their hands, since thy don't have to buy a house.

Caz wrote:
Try this. Get a training dagger, and just defend vs. an unrmed person. It should be easier if you have any skill.
For spears, if it's a purely thrusting spear, the head is too light to change the balance. If it's a cutting head, it's almost a polearm and the blance will be slightly different, but still I'd save tht for a more granular world.
Defending with a spear one handed is best done vertically, (if it's not too long) so it's not hard either, and won't work against you, and it's still easy to thrust with from that position. But hey, if you're doing that you probably have a shield anyway.

Lol nobody knows what I'm talking about!
As for the spear, try some of the one handed spear work in gladiatoria, w/the point down. It's excellent for defense, and still easy to thrust with.
As for the dagger, like it was said, it's common sense you'll get your arm chopped off it you put it in the way of a sword cut. Why I didn't bring that up. I'm talking about the ease of putting it there. And if someone is talking about going unarmed vs. a sword, what kind of retard would assume you'd block the blade w/your arm anyhow?
The DTN on daggers as is means it's extremely hard to move a dagger around. I'm saying it's not much harder to move a dagger than a hand. And there is a grand canyon of difference in the dtn in this very non-granular system. Some are saying they can't defend themselves with a dagger worth a darn because it doesn't have a wrist. Fine for them. I just don't see that it's that hard to put a dagger there instead of your arm. But thanks for the attempts anyhow hehe, been fun

Parrying with a dagger against anything other than a thrust is nearly impossible if the guy really wants to kill you, unless you are quite skilled (in TROS terms, that means "higher DTN"). Historically the dagger was protection against thrusts and for closing in for the kill, meaning that the sword was actually the defense weapon and the dagger was the kill weapon. It's an issue of leverage, amongst other things.

Caz, actually I, for one agree with you. But look at the DTN of the spear listed. Does it seem wrong to you? I'm just arguing that it should be worse than the DTN on a quarterstaff. Would you disagree?

Mike