So, I'm really, really frustrated at this moment. That's my qualifier for this entire post. Please take the following with a grain of salt. As the title states, I really do feel as if I'm at the end of my rope.

The "kicker" for all this is a series of statements from one of the individuals in a game that I run on a weekly basis. Those who have followed my posts are familiar with the fact that, shortly after changing over from D&D3e to HeroQuest, my gaming group imploded. We collapsed from a 7-8 person group to a (now) 3 person group. The issues arise, however, when a fourth individual, who was nominally a member of the group to begin with, was speaking with me at my house this past week.

This fourth individual was "just dropping by." Actually, he's been prowling around the edge of my games for the last 3 weeks. He has stated that he's interested in taking over the game and running D&D (which runs counter to my entire reason for starting the game, see below). His comments about how sucky HeroQuest was followed my question of why he was interested in running but not interested in playing. My main concern was that he wasn't really interested in coming to a game on a weekly basis. I also have no desire to play D&D three times a week.

My frustration came from a regular player who launched into his own attack on HeroQuest and basically stating how crappy it was to play in a HeroQuest game. This hit me completely out of left-field, but (in retrospect) it actually fits in with a number of things that have come to light over the past week.

A little background first.

Originally, my weekly group pulled players from all different places. We met at the FLGS and I had a little overlap among the other groups with whom I play. But it was never enough to constitute yet another meeting of the same old crowd. My weekly game now, however, has become "another meeting of the same old crowd." I've played with them for quite a while now (going on 3 years) and it hasn't always be a labor of love.

First off, I like these guys (well, most of them) but I'm no longer sure if I like roleplaying with them. For reasons of which I am unaware, I have become persona-non-grata among their crowd of late. This happens as they seem to cycle through a strange ritual of disliking this person or that person for brief periods of time for reasons that only tangentially relate to anything that person has said or done. So, whereas in the past when they were having a "boardgame night" or going out to a movie, I might get a phonecall once in a while, no invites come now. Whereas, in the past, my characters in their RPGs would integrate with the party (I've often created flat-out support PCs to this end), now for some reason my characters are singled out, humiliated, killed mercilessly, and I am even subjected to barbs or being the butt of the evening's biting jokes as a result. Normally, if this function is divided equally among the group, I don't mind. We're all here to have a good time. (Right?) But lately it seems that more and more of the forced humiliation winds up on my doorstep. I don't mind kidding and laughing it up. But must it all come at my expense? And lately it has started getting personal.

For example, in the last game (which occured the night before my own) that was run by one of my players (the group meets separately on a night when I am not running; I try to play as often as I can), I knew within the first 20 minutes of play that the DM had decided that my character was going to die. According to the DM, the game was a standard D&D game and the DM made some minor pronouncements warning against evil characters (but nothing really concrete, as usual). So, I decided that I would be a Paladin. I thought I could supply some healing as well as turning and combat back-up. Usually, I play a Cleric or some such. It really is pointless for me to play anything else in this group. My theives are all beaten within an inch of their life, besides the fact that I have never stolen anything from the party (other than papers that another player said were papers stating that his character owned mine). My wizards are generally left for dead or outright killed by other wizards in the party. My fighters generally get slaughtered too in a typical "my broadsword is bigger than yours" contest. So, I generally stick with Clerics. If one thing is assured, it's that people will need healing. Clerics are usually safe and usually stay alive. So, I didn't think it would be a far stretch to play a Paladin. My bad...

Within the first 20 minutes of play, one of the players had been turned into a vampire (by GM fiat nonetheless) by a very heavy-handed railroad scene (i.e. the player had no chance of winning and was not even afforded the opportunity to fight back/resist). That's fine. No complaints here. The player who had been turned into a vampire was A-OK with it. Who am I to complain?

Little did I know...

The DM allows the player to keep playing the PC as a vampire. Meanwhile, my background comes into play. See, I'm a paladin from a beleagured nation to the North. We had been fighting a war against Goblinoids for over a decade and my mission was to ask the king of this land for aid. So the king puts me up in the castle...

In the vampire's old chambers. To my credit, a lucky roll on Turning allowed my 3rd level Paladin to banish the vampire. But I had no magical weapons. No spells. Nothing. I was a sitting duck outside of my lucky roll on Turning. So I died. 6 hours over 2 evenings to just up and die. I could have easily just turned in my character sheet to the DM. All attempts at procuring help were thwarted. For some reason, there were no clerics in this kingdom from whom I could ask assistance. For some reason, there was no one (not even the King) who would lend me a blade that might hurt this vampire-PC. So I holed up in the chapel and waited. Another PC (who had since been turned into a Ghoul) came along and desecrated the chapel prior to the vamp-PC showing up. So, no protection there. As a GM gimme, the DM created a +1 sword out of thin air for me to find. It wasn't much good, however. My 3rd level paladin had to face off against 2 Ghouls, a vamp-samurai and a cleric of undead. To his credit, another PC managed to stay non-undead long enough not to partake in this round of Paladin Pinata. To another player's credit, he was significantly disgusted enough by what was happening to take an active role against the other players. He had also been subjected to such treatment in the past. Repeatedly. I daresay he finds it distasteful.

But this is how their sessions go. Someone starts it off by pickpocketing another player. Another PC offs someone else. Or we just spend the evening being belligerent to each other. Thing is... I'm tired of it. Sure, it can be fun every now and again to do the whole "imploding evil PCs" game, but every weekend?? I've seen them play the same way in Call of Cthulhu, Star Wars, Marvel Superheroes... you name it. Same evil-backstabbing sociopaths... Different genre...

But what really cheesed me were comments by another player regarding HeroQuest.

I like (make that LOVE) HeroQuest. I think it's a great game. I started running on my own nights at the FLGS in order to try out games like HeroQuest. Games that just don't get a fair amount of exposure in this area (because they're not D&D). I've had mixed success with it (with this particular group). Over the course of several weeks, I still have not had a player take a follower or a sidekick. They think these will be used as "plot bait." Suffice to say that I have NEVER done this in a game I ran. Yet, they are so used to it outside of my games that it is, I suppose, proper DM tactics. Players continue to create the "Man With No Name" character. It seems like everyone wants to play Yojimbo. No name, no connections... But even the samurai in Yojimbo had more depth than the entire group of PCs with which I have to work combined.

And then it comes. Outside of calling my character names, such as being called an "ass" for trying to drive the ghoul out of the chapel before it desecrated it (which the player did with considerable glee). Tangent starts here: it was funny that I was called an "ass" because I was trying to get the ghoul to *leave* without killing him. See, like it or not, he was a PC. I just don't dig stepping all over other players' fun to prove what a big strong man I am. So, instead of kill him, I tried to drive him away. Ironic. As it turns out, I should have killed him. The DM had his legs cut off shortly after I died. So now he's a legless ghoul. Would've worked out better as a dead ghoul.

But the catcalls and barbs keep coming. I'm in "Endure it and move on" mode because I know I'm gonna die soon. I'm honestly just trying to wriggle my way into a situation where I can be killed by the vampire instead of a ghoul, reasoning that I might conceivably "join the party" in that fashion. And then one of the players starts laying into HeroQuest. The statements passed around were how it is too freeform. You can just make up whatever you want. etc. etc. Even players in my weekly game join in. So, not only am I being dismantled as a PC, I am having my GM style and game of choice ridiculed for all to witness. As it turns out, my efforts were fruitless anyway. The vampire did kill me. But didn't turn me into a vampire. I was under the *impression* that anyone who is killed by a vampire in D&D is then raised as a vampire. Apparently, I was wrong yet again. So, here we have a predominantly undead party and guess who gets to create a human PC for next week's pinata party?

A little more backstory now: I have been trying to get this group to try a game of HeroQuest for going on 3 months. I think the system has its merits. So, when the DM torch is passed, I offer to run HeroQuest. "No," come the replies, "We don't want to learn another system." So, instead we play RIFTS, out of 7 people I am only one of four to have ever played Palladium before. So there are at least 3 people willing to learn a new system. And instead we play Shadowrun which, again, out of 7 people, only 2 have played before. Ah, so five people want to learn... I give up.

See, prior to the "deconstruction" of my playing preferences, I was having a really hard time "getting" it. Now I think I do. While others were whooping it up and ridiculing everything except for my shoe-size, I was listening to what was passing right on by the rest of them.

They actually ENJOY this style of backstabbing, buddy-screwing play. I had been confused because, in the past, all I had ever heard was them bitching about it. I had heard "Wah, Wah, this and then he did Wah, Wah, that." This led me to believe that the group actually didn't like the buddy-screwing, not to mention the masochistic role the players often had to take with the GM's railroading and derision. So I thought, like me, they *wanted* something different.

I've come to believe now that I was wrong.

Despite the whinings and complaints to the contrary, they actually DO enjoy this style of play. IME, it's not gamist, it's not narrativist, nor even is it simulationist. It's just flat out dysfunctional. It's a group of individuals that get together to attempt to make others all around feel less about themselves.

Has anyone else encountered this or groups like this? I'm resolved to break off my entanglements in this particular group. Maybe (just maybe) there is an oasis in this area where people want to do something other than pickpocket my paladin's holy symbol. Somewhere I can mention games like Sorcerer, HeroQuest and the Pool and players respond with engaged interest, even curiosity, instead of defending the Palladium system like it was some almight tome of RPG design. Since when is the statement "There's this game I bought called HeroQuest. I think it's really cool." an attack on Palladium?? Especially when stated during the commercials of a Dave Chappelle Show episode (as in "not stated at the gaming table")? Apparently, one of the players has a problem with this, as it was one of the many things pushed into my face.

I do think this necessary break is a shame though because there are a couple of players who I genuinely like. They are nice guys stuck in an abusive cycle. Unfortunately, I don't have the inclination to endure the heckling and jibes of those who apparently think so little of me.

Any other advice on this situation? I think I know what Ron would say and I'm already acting towards that end. Sorry that this rambles a bit, but the entirety of it adds up to one big ball of frustration. In order to address what I perceived to be unsatisfying roleplay for the group, I go on a quest for more engaging games/systems. I am ridiculed/humiliated for this. For some reason, I'm apparently known as the "whacky systems guy" even though I've run around 7 different systems in three years (spread over three separate groups) while this particular group goes through 4 in just as many months. And to add injury to insult, apparently no one is *really* interested in playing these new games I'm introducing on my game night (whose initial purpose was to try new things). They only do so for some unspoken reason. Quite possibly it's part of their routine. Further, it turns out (from my most recent observations) that what I had taken at face value as unsatisfying play actually isn't. These guys actually like sitting around, being jerks to one another and then complaining about it to each other days later. It's almost like being a hamster on a wheel...

Scott

Well, taking what you say with a grain of salt, if they actually DO enjoy the one-upsmanship you refer to, it might not be as dysfunctional as you think.

Regardless, it sounds like it's not functional for YOU, and not just on a gaming level, per se. At the very least, you need a break from these guys.

My advice would be to leave the group and never play with them again. Preserving the friendship can be optional; the important thing is that you remove yourself from the game group as a participant.

I recently ran into a similar situation, and decided to leave the group of several years. As a result, I haven't actually gamed in several months. But you know what? I haven't missed it. No play at all is better than disfunctional play.

Wow.

Sounds like one big Self-Esteem Black Hole.

I suggest throwing the engines into full escape mode and heading to a more pleasant part of the galaxy.

You know that you don't enjoy the dominant mode of play. The players show no motivation to change their style of play, it appears they even enjoy themselves. If you feel the need to try and take a couple of the other abused players with you, go ahead. But don't let them slow you down when it comes to an immediate evacuation from this group.

That's my two horrified cents.

-Chris

ethan_greer wrote: My advice would be to leave the group and never play with them again. Preserving the friendship can be optional; the important thing is that you remove yourself from the game group as a participant.

I recently ran into a similar situation, and decided to leave the group of several years. As a result, I haven't actually gamed in several months. But you know what? I haven't missed it. No play at all is better than disfunctional play.

Hi there,

Actually, what I "would say" has to wait until I understand a little better. As it stands, I'm kind of confused.

Three players in the HeroQuest game, right? And it was some other guy who spoke to you about that game? Or he complained and they joined in? Or?

Maybe I'm just not reading well, but I don't see the statement or description of how the regular HQ players are bitching about the game. Oh wait!! I get it ... this started during a D&D game, and then one of the HQ players joined in ...

Ah ha. I submit that your regular HQ players are not necessarily unhappy with that game. I submit that the abusive/humorous (Hard Core) context of the D&D game makes its own rules about what can be said, up to and including coming up with whatever will hurt the most regardless of its actual validity to the speaker.

I suggest making damn sure that the actual three regular HQ players do not want to continue to play before assuming that is the case. Unless you are careful, it is quite likely that your D&D DM will achieve his possible real goal: scuttling a perfectly viable game that he perceives as a direct threat to his authority, his vested interest in D&D over the past decades, and his social circle and position in it.

If the three HQ players really don't want to continue to play, well and good; then stop playing. But make sure first.

Best,
Ron

If you're 3rd level and it's 3e, you're Vampire Spawn, not a Vampire, which isn't that hot because you can't advance it, unlike the template. A non-viable character choice. If it's 1e, who knows, that's a DM house rule if other people are still playing characters after the vamp takes them.

That DM singled you out for gaming and emotional torture on purpose and I think if you never saw him again it would be too soon. I would second Ron's suggestion to double check with the three players in both games, though. It may be that they were just showing moral weakness by joining in the 'pick on Scripty' fest, or it may even be that these guys as a whole are the kind of sociopaths who were on my intramural football team in college, who enjoy picking each other apart with words simply to hurt the emotionally vulnerable. That's manly in some circles, and standard operating mode in some games. Doesn't matter now: you clearly don't like that kind of game and I don't blame you, neither do I.

But if you think you can forgive those other guys or your behavior with them in other contexts suggests that they can enjoy other kinds of gaming, and you think that the play in your HeroQuest game has been good enough to keep going, then yeah, I second Ron's opinion, see if they really don't like the game or not before ending it.

Scripty wrote: It wasn't until the knives came out that I understood how a number of the players *really* felt. My back still hurts.

If nothing else works for you... the indie netgamers are always interested in new players and GMs... and cool games.

I'm dubious about wanting to game with people who might like your game but are compelled to trash it in order to preserve status elsewhere. Haven't they ever seen The Breakfast Club? Maybe they're cool guys most of the time, but man, there's so many good players out there looking for other good players, and you won't always have to be checking your back for knives.

Bob McNamee wrote: If nothing else works for you... the indie netgamers are always interested in new players and GMs... and cool games.

We played it once. Short set of scenes, only the first inklings of a story.

Years and years ago, I played a few times with a similar group. The group consisted of four "core" players and a few others who came and went. The "core" players seemed to treat the game as an excuse to have their characters plot against and ultimately backstab each other -- never mind what the game in question was.

I played with them a couple of times as a player, and, not being privy to everything that was going on, and with them playing established characters, thought that it was something with the characters they were playing. Later on, though, they asked me to run a game for them, and I did, with them making up new characters -- and it dissolved into the same backstabbing session the games I'd played with them had. Further, from the GM's vantage point, I got to see all the notes they were passing back and forth and find out what was going on in the private GM-player discussions... so I got to see the instigation of all of it, and how the players in question were looking for any pretext, no matter how flimsy, to have their characters plot against each other.

Still later, I decided to try once more with that group, in hopes that playing something other than D&D might change things. (They were great guys *outside* of the game, and I loved the pre- and post-game socializing with them.) I ran Marvel Superheroes, thinking that the ingrained spirit of how superheroes cooperate (well, once you get past the standard "we meet and fight each other" bit) might help.

Nope. They met, fought, became a group... and then fell right back into the same pattern of passing notes to the GM asking "can I see if X is up to anything?", asking for private conferences, and plotting against each other. That was enough of that for me, and I gave up on gaming with that group. I did invite some of them individually to game with a different group I played with, and separated from each other, they played quite reasonably... but as a group together, they couldn't get away from backstabbing each other.

Ron Edwards
Hi there,

Actually, what I "would say" has to wait until I understand a little better.

Three players in the HeroQuest game, right? And it was some other guy who spoke to you about that game? Or he complained and they joined in? Or?

Ah ha. I submit that your regular HQ players are not necessarily unhappy with that game. I submit that the abusive/humorous (Hard Core) context of the D&D game makes its own rules about what can be said, up to and including coming up with whatever will hurt the most regardless of its actual validity to the speaker.

I suggest making damn sure that the actual three regular HQ players do not want to continue to play before assuming that is the case. Unless you are careful, it is quite likely that your D&D DM will achieve his possible real goal: scuttling a perfectly viable game that he perceives as a direct threat to his authority, his vested interest in D&D over the past decades, and his social circle and position in it.

Calithena

If you're 3rd level and it's 3e, you're Vampire Spawn, not a Vampire, which isn't that hot because you can't advance it, unlike the template. A non-viable character choice. If it's 1e, who knows, that's a DM house rule if other people are still playing characters after the vamp takes them.

That DM singled you out for gaming and emotional torture on purpose and I think if you never saw him again it would be too soon.

rafial
Just a quick thought. I gather from your original post that these "yeah, Heroquest really sucks" comments were made in the context of the dysfunctional game? It may be possible that some of your Heroquest players actually *have* been enjoying themselves, but feel compelled to join the "dump on Scripty" party in order to maintain their status in the disfunctional group.

Bob McNamee

If nothing else works for you... the indie netgamers are always interested in new players and GMs... and cool games.

Matt Wilson
I'm dubious about wanting to game with people who might like your game but are compelled to trash it in order to preserve status
elsewhere. Haven't they ever seen The Breakfast Club? Maybe they're cool guys most of the time, but man, there's so many good players out there looking for other good players, and you won't always have to be checking your back for knives.
_________________
-Matt

heya scripty,

first off, where are you located? maybe there's some kind of organiztion that you can get in touch with to locate other gamers. also, Issaries, Inc. has a fantastic support system for HQ and you should be able to find other gamers through their website, if you haven't tried that route yet, that is.

and on the similar stories note, my first gaming group was in the same vein as yours. there were five regular players: myself, my younger brother Danny, my best friend Justin, my neighbor Harry and this guy we all knew named Rob. Rob was older than most of us by a couple of years easily and was weened on old-school, pickpocket your friends and always kill the halfling in the first session ay-dee-en-dee. we played adnd2nd and had a blast for a while doing your basic dungeon crawling. then, my neighbor Harry and the DM Rob started "getting together" on gaming stuff, and normally i was the target of it all. they would tag team during games, Rob using harry and his PC as a mole in the game to railroad our group into certain quests or doing certain things.

it culminated in a session where-in, during a break of a minute or two wherein i had to go and put something away, another PC at one of the games we were playing in went stepping through a fiery cave using magic to protect himself. Overhearing "I'm walking in," i say "oh, were all following, right? well, i'll take up the lead, 'cause i'm a paladin and i don't want anyone else getting hurt."

Rather than explaining the situation to me, Rob simply let me walk of into the fire. After laughing in devlish glee and grabbing dice from other players' piles of dice because he "didn't have enough dice on his own for the damage roll", he then told me that my character walked into a flaming hallway in a volcano and burnt to a crisp, rolling approximately one hundred dice in the doing.

yet i stuck it through, playing in games of Rifts and Heros Unlimited with them. These games were alternately run by Harry and Rob. the experiences were so bad that both my brother and my friend Justin stopped role-playing entirely after the group desolved and i stopped hanging out with both Harry and Rob.

To solve my frustration i simply stopped going to their games, got some of my friends who had never role-played before and sat down with a copy of the Robotech RPG from paladium one afternoon. Twelve years later I have ran Nobilis, i own a copy of Riddle of Steel and I've never been happier as a player.

maybe it's time to start fresh for you too. see if any of your regular HQ players wants to come along with you and start a new group. if not, you can always try going to your non-gamer friends and seeing if they're interrested, use the avenues listed above, or go for indie netgaming, which is an on-line Yahoo groups "game room" where players can get together and run games of their choosing and find like-minded players. That's going to be where i turn soon, seeing as how i've recently moved to hawaii and they don't make gamers out here. hey, if you go indie-netgaming i'd gladly join your group. i've got a copy of HQ and no one to play with.

well, i'm sorry you had to go through so much crap. hopefully you'll be able to cut the dross and get down to having fun around the dinner table again.

laters

Hey Scripty,

I think that Mike hits it on the head:

Zathreyel wrote:
maybe it's time to start fresh for you too. see if any of your regular HQ players wants to come along with you and start a new group. if not, you can always try going to your non-gamer friends and seeing if they're interrested, use the avenues listed above, or go for indie netgaming, which is an on-line Yahoo groups "game room" where players can get together and run games of their choosing and find like-minded players.

Hey Scott,

Here's the link to the Indie-netgaming site.

Indie-netgaming

Also, here is a blurb from the site..

Indie-netgaming is a community devoted to the organization of PBN (Play By Net) sessions of independantly designed, owned, and published role-playing games (commonly referred to as indie-rpgs or indie-games). Examples of play venue include IRC, PBEM, WebRPG, and http://www.playbyweb.com.

You might also include your location in your profile. You could be living next door to a Forgie and not know it.

Worth a try, anyway.

Mark Johnson wrote: You might also include your location in your profile. You could be living next door to a Forgie and not know it.

Worth a try, anyway.

peteramthor wrote:

Mark Johnson wrote: You might also include your location in your profile. You could be living next door to a Forgie and not know it.

Worth a try, anyway.

What he said.

Well back to lurking for me now.

Scripty wrote:

Yes, I know. You've went to Spring Break here. Not to diminish anyone's experience, but I just get that a lot. Including from, oddly enough, a waiter in Paris.

Scott

johnmarron wrote:
Actually I did some archaeology there, and Panama City has nothing on Sneads, Bonifay, and Defuniak Springs in the armpit competition (that's not quite fair to DFS, but true of the other BFE panhandle towns).

John

hey, my best friend's from panama city, FL. he's not a gamer so much as he is "the guy who plays occasionally and makes up a character who is too funny for words". but, hey, i'm sure you'll be able to find other gamers out there.

also, any updates on the situation? have you spoken to any of the other players about what's happened yet?

laters

Scripty wrote: Panama City, FL

Zathreyel wrote: also, any updates on the situation? have you spoken to any of the other players about what's happened yet?

Brand_Robins wrote: If you ever get up to Toronto, there's a space in my circle for you.

Brand_Robins wrote: As for the rest of it, I don't know if those folks you're playing with count as "dysfunctional gamers" or not, due to the fact that they may like it (though I'd doubt its so much that they really enjoy it as that they are stuck in a cycle).

Brand_Robins wrote: As for the ones playing HQ, talk to them and ask them if they want to play. If they do, tell them they need to bring it to the table. If they don't, then let them go back to their hole.

Brand_Robins wrote: To be honest, it sounds like at the point you're at it would be better for you to find non-RPers and get them to try it out, get friends into the game, rather than looking for people who already game. It can be a lot of work, and frustrating in its own way, but I've had good experiences with it and can guarantee that the difficulty of getting a friend to try something is far less annoying than the pain of dealing with idiots who happen to share a hobby with you.

Scripty wrote: I've been trying and, every once in a while, a non-RPer shows a little interest. I think it's the time commitment that's the real turn-off for most of my other friends, though.

Scripty wrote: Another problem is that the few nonRPers that I have been able to bring in have wound up playing once or, even, twice with many of the same guys from the D&D night. That sort of screws things up. For instance, my wife played in a Buffy game with the group once. One of the players called her a very bad word because she grabbed a sword that he dropped and started hacking away at vampires.... "If you call my wife a B#%@& at the gaming table, it's not going to help your case." Needless to say, my wife has written off RPGs entirely. I don't blame her. The guy was way out of line. I don't game with him anymore.

Similar stories exist for every other friend I've tried to introduce to the hobby via this group or sub-groups thereof.

I second every bit of Brand's post. Also, Indie-netgaming isn't the horde of flesh eating walking dead that you may have heard about. We only eat your brain. :) Seriously though, it's a relaxed atmosphere with people that like to play games, particularly indie games. So, no need for anxiety.

-Chris

P.S. Almost all of my rpg purchases over the last year and a half have been due to actual play in the Indie-netgaming irc channels.

Scripty wrote: For instance, my wife played in a Buffy game with the group once.
...
She perceived it as the least wounded "Slayer" picking up and helping out. It was also totally in character for her. She was playing "Faith" after all.
...
My wife came in as Faith because, well, she wanted to play a character she knew.
...
Needless to say, my wife has written off RPGs entirely.

Well, I was waiting for a final decision before I talked to "quiet guy." I'm definitely not going back to the D&D game. I'm just not interested in a 1 or so hours of character creation and then waiting 30-45 minutes to be intro'd to the party only to have anything of relevance pickpocketed in the first 30 minutes or to have my character flat out killed by the end of the evening. Everyone here seems to be with me on this matter.

But my weekly HeroQuest game is shot now too. Right in the head with a big silver bullet. I got to talk with "quiet guy" (name withheld to protect the innocent) tonight. He's not interested in HeroQuest anymore either. Ironic, in that I just bought him the corebook. He had asked me to get him a copy of the Hero's Book but, hey, it was Christmas! Hopefully his appreciation of what I feel is hands-down, the best RPG of last year will change somewhat after he has the book.

He did illuminate a bit of what the other players had apparently been discussing when I wasn't around... Please give me some leeway. I'm trying to give a fair representation of what was said and some of it is contradictory.

1) HeroQuest was too freeform. Skills were wishy-washy and there were no specifics. They wanted a skill list (outside of homeland and occupation listings). I guess what they're looking for is a "master skill list" like in RIFTS. Here the group and I disagree. I think HQ straddles the fence quite well between being completely malleable and open to improvisation/imagination, while still codifying things quite nicely.

2) HeroQuest didn't let you do what you wanted. This is the essence of the other major complaint. On one hand, you couldn't be a jack-of-all-trades in HeroQuest and still pack the punch of someone who had specialized all their energy into one specific field. On the other hand, if you concentrated all of your Hero Points into one focused area, you would have blind spots as there would be a number of things at which you would not be as skilled. I'll try not to be to grumpy here. But this part of the complaint seemed to break down into two primary gripes: HeroQuest doesn't allow you to have your cake and eat it too and HeroQuest doesn't support number-stacking.

Personally, I think this complaint was entirely bogus. These are players who never took a follower or a sidekick and who rarely interacted with the setting/environment at all. The couple of games in which they did come out of their shell and play we had a great time. But then they turtled up again.

3) Adversaries were too tough to beat in HeroQuest. Now, this complaint is quite possibly my fault mixed with a bit of theirs. This last campaign they wanted Cthulhupunk. They wanted horror-Cyberpunk. That's what I gave. Their primary concern here was that they couldn't punch out a Shoggoth. Okay... well, not many people can. The root of most of these complaints was playing a zombie PC in that game. How he kept his free-will I left up for him to decide. It's what he wanted, so I was cool with it. I felt a really good adversary for him would be a trio of Necromancers loosely based on the Karotechia from Delta Green. Physically, they were no match for the zombie. He could've killed them without a moment's thought. But, when working their mojo, his Undead ability worked against him. They *were* necromancers, after all. Now he could've resisted with anything: Willpower, Ravenous, Determined, etc. etc. Most people familiar with HeroQuest could probably denote a number of ways the big bad Nazis necromancers could've been taken out. But did he? No. He turtled and said he had nothing to resist, which defaulted him to 14. Now why was this? Because in character creation he hadn't taken any personality traits to speak of. He had, maybe, two of them. He refused relationships. Everything. All he wanted was "Undead" and I let him boost that to 20w3. I warned him of the pitfalls of such an approach, but he ignored me. When faced with adversaries/obstacles that outmatched him, I advised he use the Extended Contest. This is truly the one way to "game" the HeroQuest system. Did he? No. He wanted everything resolved with a Simple Contest. Of course, he's going to have trouble with more skilled adversaries. Especially ones with more than one dimension.

So the ONE time he came across a Karotechia in the entire four games where he didn't run away and hide they took control of him and had him...

guard a door while they escaped.

Somehow, I was underwhelmed by his complaint.

There were other complaints along these lines but it primarily centered around being helpless in the face of cosmic horror. Well, they weren't helpless. Not at all. They single-handedly destroyed New Orleans AND stopped Octopus Umbrella from completing an important hostile takeover of another corporation. They stole an artifact from a Satanic corporation, unleashed a zombie plague and took down an Octopus Umbrella airship.

Sure, one of them went insane and turned into a Shoggoth and another died at the hands of the Zombie PC, after having the De Vermis Mysteriis uploaded to his cortex. But this IS Cthulhupunk.

With that taken into account, they rocked the house. But still there's the whining and moaning and, of course, they've heaped it all on to the HeroQuest system, which is unfortunate. They're closing a door. Oh well, I'm not intending to follow.

But, being as how a couple of the players are really nice people whom I consider friends, I was willing to work with them. I offered to run Freedom City/HeroQuest. We're talking Justice League-style supers. I thought showing them the other end of the spectrum might be nice. They turned it down because it was going to be in the HeroQuest system. Reference what I said about closing doors...

Then there was Atomic Horror. I was willing to run a pulpy Atomic Horror campaign using (gasp!) the Call of Cthulhu d20 system. I was going to retool the Insanity results a bit so that people went crazy like Christopher Lloyd in Back to the Future instead of Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs. Light, B-Movie, Pulp fun with just a dash of camp (Giant Robots... Alien Invasions... Flying Saucers... Rayguns...). Nope, came the reply. We're tired of Cthulhu.

Well, I always have Midnight-HeroQuest. Ready to go. Has been for months. But, oh yeah, that's in HeroQuest. And, oh yeah, it's Midnight. They're not interested in that setting because there's "nothing to do(?)."

So my last offer was the best received. A Wierd War II Call of Cthulhu d20 campaign which mixed elements of Saving Private Ryan with H.P. Lovecraft. This was a go?! Odd. I told them that I thought they were "tired of Cthulhu." This was THE most Cthulhoid campaign I had ever put together. I was at a loss.

So I decided to call it quits. Rather than muddle through yet another lukewarm group. Rather than spend hours on things like relationship maps, kickers and filling in details that they were too lazy to figure out for themselves. Rather than bending over backwards to try and try and try to squeeze some excitement out of them. I decided my energies would be better spent elsewhere.

Brand, if you want to do indie-netgaming, I'm there. My internet connection really bites. But I'll definitely show. I'd love to actually play in a HeroQuest campaign, if just to find out exactly what the reason for Glorantha Fever is. Personally, I'd just love to play again with people who really want to play. To have fun. Remember when we used to do that?

I'll continue to work on my own things. I have some interesting ideas on the magic end of the HeroQuest system swimming in the soup of my head. I'll also try to run some demos up at the FLGS. I would hate to let an open invite go to waste.

But I'm not going to work my tail off for people who really just don't give a flying flip. It's just not worth it. They would be better served playing D&D 1st ed. I would be better served by reading in the bath.

Thanks for all the support. It's really nice to know that I'm not completely insane in wanting more out of this hobby than just getting slapped around 2 nights a week.

Scott

By the way Mike Holmes is about to get an HQ game going on Indie netgaming (link in my sig)...at the Magicstar IRC...soon.

He may be still open to players...and we always welcome lurkers.

I think this is an intereasting phennom. It's been my expiereince that how abusive people are in a game has nothing to do with what they're like out of a game. Hope you're so lucky.

I've been described as not the nicest person in real life, but in a game, I'm very big on my character's being supportive of others and adhering to the social contract as much as possible. If I want my character to have an attitude, I express it towards the non player characters.

But not so much with most people I know... like this friend, she apoligizes to people who are playing air hockey if she thinks her conversation is too loud for them. She seems to have self-esteem problems alot of the time. But her characters are usually focused on pointing out what's wrong with other characters, giving them derogatory name-variations, you know.

Infact, every female gamer I know gravitates towards this style of play, or GMing. Watching a small, sickly girl in an anime shirt GM people into situations out of a S&M flick is kind of a strange thing... I think it's funny because you usually asort this sort of play with a collection of psuedeo-frat boys.

Personally, I'd say you should be aggressive about getting the players you like out of this group, and find another one to play in. It's been my observation that once people get used to this style of play, they often have a hard time letting go of it voluntarily, after a year or two they feel like they're just starting to be in the in-crowd.

Not saying that this is some sort of an inherently bad thing, but it's bad for -you- if you don't attempt to help you and the friends who's style you like to go to a setting where you can have fun gaming.

Also, in this new group you're joining, you should consider finding people that you can talk to about roleplaying when you shoot the breeze. It'll make you reframe from talking about it to these people which will just be a headache in the future.

Ironically, Scripty is very aware of my efforts to play HQ in a non-Gloranthan environment (namely Shadow World). He and I have exchanged conversions and have been having a great time talking about it. Anyhow, the point is that he wouldn't get to play Glorantha. OTOH, he would get to play HQ and has more knowledge of my conversion than anyone else in the world.

So, you're plenty welcome to play if you like. :-)

Mike