I am currently designing a role playing game based around a fictional world of my own design centered on vampires and the undead. I am currently looking for constructive criticism and opinions of what I have so far. It does not include the mechanics or character sheet, as yet; this is simply the first few pages of the game manual which discuss the history behind vampires in this world, as well as the established orders and organizations within its society.

It is in Adobe PDF format, ~550 KB in size, at: http://www.geocities.com/kittrbj82/index.html. Click on the link to access the PDF file.

Thanks in advance for comments.

terribly sorry to say so, maybe you could provide some more information to make things clearer, but as it stands it looks like a 100% copy of V:tM. The orders are slightly different, go by different names and such, but I failed to find any addition which would interest me. Except for the music thing in the introduction (which was otherwise a boring retelling of the oldest vampire cliche in the book).
Maybe there's some great ideas waiting around the corner, maybe you never heard of V:tM (which seems unlikely, given you use the terms Storyteller and Diabolism) but as it stands I feel I've wasted my time. My constructive criticism would be "write something original".

Yes, I've heard of Vampire: the Masquerade, but I do not see how it is a 100% copy of that game.

For starters, this game operates from the theory of vampires originating more as an evolutionary creature, rather than as a descendent of a biblical character. It also operates more on a social organization, rather than a clan-based organization; all the vampires are exactly the same in appearance and characteristics, though they choose to join different orders based upon their personality and personal history. Their powers are not truly based off of what order they are, but, instead, what patron or matron chose them, what they have studied over time, and so forth.

Orders are completely different from "Clans"; they are social institutions, not something that changes how you look, who you are, and so forth.

As for Diabolism, I believe they use the term Diablery (or something like that) in V:tM. In the case of Rhapsody, it is a totally different affair; Diabolism is simply the dark enchantment of vampire blood to create poisons, sickness, delirium, and other such effects, whereas in V:tM, it is the consumption of a vampire's total blood supply.

I can change the word Storyteller to something else, I suppose; it does not really matter to me. Seemed a decent word to use to describe the purpose of a GM.

As for "write something original", I assumed it would get such assessment; it is impossible to write anything on the subject of vampires in a roleplaying game without being compared to "the big name in the business right now", be it Anne Rice's series, V:tM, and so forth.

Also, I laughed about the "oldest vampire cliche in the book" a bit; the whole beginning story did sound kinda cheesey and used up, and I agree that a new intro story is in order. lol I will think about it.

In my humble opinion, I have played V:tM in the past, and I can most certainly say that it sucks. It captures none of the interesting concepts around vampires from literature, and the romance of the whole idea in V:tM is non-existent. In most White Wolf games, you are a vampire who drinks a little blood from some mortal, then goes about on some rampage across the city with little more than a care in the world. You are not vampires in V:tM, you are gods, but perhaps that is why people like it so much. Who knows.

But, thanks for the input.

heya Brian, welcome to the Forge.

alright, to the stuff you've presented us. first off, you honestly don't give us a lot of setting information to critique, but what stuff you do isn't exactly steeped in originality. what i see here seems to posit many ideas that are strikingly similar to those in V:tM. You have Orders which, though they are societal rather than "genetic" or familial, they are still social groupings of vampires vying for power over the other orders, and as such aren't much different in actual play than the Clans of V:tM.

You also have phrases such as Diabolism and The World of Darkness used in your texts, as well as Storyteller. Both the World of Darkness and Storyteller are trademarked words for White Wolf, and while, as you say, Diabloism is simply a form of magic and Diablery is much different, Diabolism is a form of magick that is used in Mage: the Assencion and Sorcerer's Crusade. You have a lot of "coincidental" similarities in your texts to things White Wolf-ian.

The impression i get is that this is your Vampire "heartbreaker", a concept that has been explored by Ron Edwards in one of his articles. take a look at these articles here:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/10/

these articles may help with your development of your game.

also, i have some questions about the game's background. As you have said before, vampirism in this game world is something that has developed through evolution and, as such, is simply an advanced strain of humanity some-what like the mutants in X-Men. If this is so, how are new vampires created? are they born to vampire parents? is vampirism transmitted through a bite? can a vampire be born to human biological parents simply as an outgrowth of the tide of evolution, just as mutants can be born to human parents?

you also have mentioned that characters select their own Order to belong to. Can characters choose to have belonged to one Order in their past and have changed their Order? And, if so, do they get to keep their Gifts (which is a Werewolf: the Apocolypse gaming term)?

a suggestion to help differentiate your world from that of White Wolf's World of Darkness: bring the vampires out of the shadow. make them into this world's "mutants". Say that vampirism is an evolutionary trait that is popping up in mankind. have religions turn to zealotry over this. make your vampiric orders a part of the real world. put them on TV, have them have dignitaries that speak with human governmental officials. hell, give them a country of their own and a seat on the U.N.

Creating a new RPG is a fantastic chance to say something original. right now you're taking the statement that White Wolf put down thirteen years ago and rephrasing it. It may use some new words and have an odd cadence, but you're still winding up saying the exact same thing.

good luck with the game man.

laters

I agree it's hard to come up with an original take on vampires these days, and now, that you point it out, I can see the differences you have in mind.
It might be a mere problem of presentation. After some generic info on vampires the intro immediately goes to the various orders, and thus I assumed these were important. If they are not, you might be well advised to ban that section to the back of the rulebook to emphasise it is a secondary concern. While at it, you might want to expand the initial section, both to highlight the differences to V:tM and even more importantly, to answer the important question of "So f@&king what?".
These days players no longer get excited when you tell them they can play a vampire (in fact, quite the opposite, they get upset when they can't) so I a game on vampires needs some different attraction IMO. If there's nothing in there to get excited about except being able to play a vampire, why bother?
And while I realise that it's hard to do original stuff on vampires these days, I doubt it is harder than doing original fantasy or scifi stuff. Read "The Golden" http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2547/fantasy6.htm, Polidori's "The Vampire" http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/louxsie/polidori.html , consider making the vampires mere ghosts that prey on emotions not blood, think about what you can make of the description of the vampiric bite as the "primal rape scene" (dunno where I picked that up, sounds remotely Freudian), mix vampires with elves or elements from "The Crow", the Sandman comics or use The Addiction http://www.deep-focus.com/flicker/addictio.html or Near Dark http://www.sfsite.com/01b/nd144.htm as an inspiration, and write an RPG on the equivalence of heroin addiction. None of these sources is revolutionary, but they offer starting points for an original twist on vampires. So there's really no need to rehash V:tM or present one's original take (which –as stated– I failed to see) in way that makes it look like V:tM.

btw: have you merely _heard_ of V:tM or have you _played_ V:tM? You state both, so which is it?

Hi, everyone,

Thanks for the input and resource links. I will take a look into them and see what I can do with what I have at present. As for now, I may let it rest a while; I need to get a list of what standard English words White Wolf has copyrighted and trademarked for their own. lol Besides, I have this other game I was designing before this, and I think it has more merit to be considered "original enough" by the gaming community in general.

As for having heard of and played V:tM, yes, I have played the modern day one and the dark ages one before, and have heard the slightest things about the other ones that White Wolf makes. I heard that Mage is extremely complicated (at least in the modern times), that Werewolf campaigns are extremely power-gamer-ish, and so forth.

And I agree with the part where montag is talking about difficulty of coming up with "things that have never been seen before" in all genres of roleplaying; it is becoming increasingly more difficult as more things come out, new editions are released of a variety of best-selling games, and so forth.

To answer some of Zathreyel's questions,

Vampires, in this setting, originally derived from an evolutionary shift happening many, many, many ... years ago. This is what created the first "batch". Somewhere along the line, these ancients discovered that ingesting blood from a vampire by a mortal alters their anatomical processes, such as a vaccination changes how the immune system fights disease. The actual reason or source for vampirism is not precisely known, just as the true source of humans or the solar system cannot be proven beyond a doubt.

I don't think you should care too much whether your game has "merit to be considered "original enough" by the gaming community in general." if you don't intend to make money from it. If it's just for you and your friends, and a few interested people on the net, forget the gaming community. Who cares what a bunch of smartasses with too much time on their hands think about your game, as long as you're having fun (gaming, being creative, socialising, whatever)?

That aside, I'd like to second Michael's suggestion concerning the mutants. I think it has a lot of potential, it wouldn't stretch your current concept too far IMO (merely fast-forward a few years), and I'd really like to play or at least read that. (Plus, you'd get to reuse some nice X-Men plots, with hardly anyone noticing.)

Honestly, I'm curious about your mechanics much more than about your setting (except as system relates to setting)... can you tell us a little about it?

Edit: By this, I mean the following:

• Sketch out the system, including any reward mechanics you wish to include.
• Describe your design goals.

Well, the mechanics of the game could be compared easily to most other RPG's currently out; you have body, mind, and tact stats, as well as skill, ability, and knowledge traits.

All the above can rise to 10 in any level, dependent upon restrictions built into the mechanics. i.e. Only very old vampires (of Ancient substance) may rise to 10 in stats and traits, and it varies the younger a vampire is in the scheme of things.

At this point, I have two possible ways of going with it. Either 1) roll X d20's dependent upon Y stat + Z trait to determine successes based upon a difficulty, or 2) subtract (Y stat + Z trait of NPC) from total of (A stat + B trait of player character) to determine the difficulty rate of making an action against the NPC.

The first possibility is self-explanatory. The second possibility, for instance, would go a little something like this... hit it!:

- John the Player has a Dexterity stat of 6 and a Melee trait of 4. This totals 10, and we shall refer to this total as the variable J.
- Paul the NPC has a Dextery stat of 4 and a Parry trait of 7. This totals 11, and we shall refer to this total as the variable P.
- John attacks Paul. J - P = X. X is the adjustment modifier. Since J = 10 and P = 11, => 10 - 11 = -1. Thus, John's difficulty to attack the NPC is increased by 1 on the dice. If the base difficulty for attacking someone else is 10 on a d20, then John's difficulty to attack this particular NPC would become 11, meaning he would have to roll an 11 or higher to succeed.

Personally, I like both possibilities. The first gives you more chances to succeed, but the second makes you roll less dice in the long run. I am a big fan of rolling less dice when, on average, the results are generally about the same/the results are equally fair.

The second method also balances the system in its own way. Since it is not the player's ability alone which allows him to succeed, but his roll against a variable, it would encourage players to in return increase their defensive traits and stats. Rather than seeing a character sheet with Melee and Dexterity full, we would see a sheet with a good balance of Dexterity, Melee, Parry, and, perhaps, Shielding and Use Armor, etc.

If I went totally off course of your question, let me know. I hope I answered it, though. :)

Actually, I snooped around a little bit, and this might make V:tM playable for those who are... unhappy... with how the current thing works. Even if you disagree or don't like it, it is definitely a funny article to read.

http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/RPG/bloodsuckers.php

Looks like I need not worry with making a game myself; this guy has already fixed V:tM. hehe

That aside, I'd like to second Michael's suggestion concerning the mutants. I think it has a lot of potential, it wouldn't stretch your current concept too far IMO (merely fast-forward a few years), and I'd really like to play or at least read that. (Plus, you'd get to reuse some nice X-Men plots, with hardly anyone noticing.)

The article doesn't 'fix' V:tM. It doesn't do V:tM. It does Buffy the vampire Slayer with the WoD system. While I'm religiously against the show albiet never watched it, from everything I've heard about it the Buffy system is excellant and more fine-tuned towards it's concept than the WoD system is towards any concept.

The fact is, people like the V:tM as is. Most people wish the horror element was played down. Alot of people are attracted to the hype as a legitimate feature, in the thought that it will cause the ST's to try to represent the game's claims and put a cursosry effort into not making the game a dungeon crawl. Sometimes it works.

Now, personally I think if you're still thinking of your game as something to run with friends, forget about originality. I think a big incentive to play in a game by a friend's system is that if you game with that person, you apparently must have some compatiable ideas, more likely than a game that's meant to please the largest market possible.

I'd say you should be abit more coherent on the game's originality issue... not liking v:tm is not an explaination that the game you are making is completely unattached to it, what it really seems to mean is that you have elements that you WANT from V:tM, but don't want to deal with the junk that's stuck to it.

Which gets to tje important issue... what do you think sucks about V:tM, what do you like about V:tM, and what would your system/setting do better?

If your game was in fact completely and totally not influenced by V:tM, these would still be the questions that will pop up most whenever you discuss the system, due to the fact that Vampire is a huge piece of structured roleplaying and vampire fiction doesn't have enough marketplace to make people think of something other than V:tM when they see a vampire game.

Look at TROS, I think it's one of the most original games I've ever seen, yet it knows it'll have to answer why it's different from D&D, and it answers with pizaz: Realistic Combat, Commitance to the source material, Sorcery's powerfull, strange mystique versus some commonplace gimmick, and the Spiritual Attribuites system.

It's not very easily advertised, but I wish it was, would be the feature of "Coherence". That's something that's lacking in severly V:tM.

Course, the poster could have completely forgot about this game by now, but I think this is good advice to games in similar veins.

@Michael O'Sullivan
please do go ahead and flesh out the mutant-vampire idea a bit. Personally, I'd suggest making them as normal as possible: allergic to sunlight; a little stronger; thougher; feeding on blood substitute (a common commodity) and with a long but final life span. Just being different should be enough.
Heck, vampirism makes such a neat substitute for puberty, the first time you drink from a human, the temptation to simply "use" people (ok, that's more of an addiction angle).
If you absolutely must make them immortal, allow me to suggest this book: Simone de Beauvoir "All men are mortal" http://www.virago.co.uk/virago/meet/debeauvoir_extract.asp?TAG=&CID=virago
Granted, she's a socialist, a feminist and she's French, ;) but the novel does an excellent job describing why immortality is a very bad idea.

Brian,

I've had a quick glance at the PDF you have posted. I'm afraid that I have to agree that it's essentially a re-hash of V:tM. Please don't see this as a dig, it's not that bad a thing. Your understanding that this is different from V:tM (based on your posts) is probably because the feeling you've tried to capture is the same as the one the original Vampire had. The current incarnation appears to have become a "Gunz and Fangz and kewl Powerz" powerfest, and if that's the only experiece you have of the game then I understand you distaste for the franchise. But (he says as he buttons his cardy, strokes his beard and stokes his pipe, while slouching into his old man's slippers) back in the day V:tM was actually a pretty cool game. It was fairly original in that it took a type of fiction and turned it into an RPG. It wasn't the first to do this genre, but it was containly, for me at least, the most interesting.

So I think you've in some way reinvented a game you've never played "properly". You're trying to build another pre-munchkinite Vampire.

Your comments that a Vampire's clan "changes how you look, who you are, and so forth" are fairly typical of players i've met in recent years who've missed the point with the clans entirely: They were always supposed to be social institutions and as such just attracted a certain type of person. Brujah don't all wear leather jackets and carry shotguns, but the vast majority of munchies who've flocked to the game in recent years lack the inagination to read beyond the illo in the book and actually create someone interesting around that framework. As a result I understand why you think the game's like that and why you want to "fix" it.

But you're also not doing yourself any favours by making your manuscript look almost exactly like an except from a WW book. I think you even re-used one of their Clan Symbol thingies.

I tried doing something original with Vampires in my setting. Doing something original is easy: Making it work's the hard bit. Far instance, you could say that all vampires are fruit and grow like bananas on trees. I don't think I've seen that in an RPG before, but then I'm not supprised: It's bloody stupid. That's hardly scary is it?

My post here http://indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9029 shows what I've come up with. Granted that my Vampires aren't the focus of Urban Mythos, but the point is that you CAN do something at least A BIT original.

I really don't want to come across as saying (as many folks do in other forums) "you are stupid, your game is stupid and this it why I am cleverer that you are". I think what you're trying to do is capture feel. It's too early in the development to see if you've done a good job, but so far it looks just fine. It's a cool vibe that I really groove on. But it's one that's, like, so 1994 ;)

Originality is over-rated. Your game is original enough already. It's problem is related to originality, however:

In my humble opinion, I have played V:tM in the past, and I can most certainly say that it sucks. It captures none of the interesting concepts around vampires from literature, and the romance of the whole idea in V:tM is non-existent. In most White Wolf games, you are a vampire who drinks a little blood from some mortal, then goes about on some rampage across the city with little more than a care in the world. You are not vampires in V:tM, you are gods, but perhaps that is why people like it so much. Who knows.

Simply put, it will not put an original spin on anything, as I will not be working on it anymore. :)

As for "stealing" back the mutant idea, feel free; it's your idea, anyway, and I shall not be working on this anymore.

And, as for the comments about how V:tM does not make you look and behave exactly like everyone else in your clan, look at the Nosferatu; they are ALL ugly. The Brujah have a clan weakness of being angry all the time (or pushy, something of that nature). Since all of these weaknesses are required, it creates a stereotype which members of these clans must adhere to in some respect. It seems to be a game designed in the attitude of the designers wanting you to play it their way instead of experimenting on new ground.

A friend has found the very first edition of V:tM and he has asked me to play with him, so I may try that; it seems from what Rich said, it is probably a better game to play for people who are looking for what I am looking for.

That's really all I have to say about it.

Also, since White Wolf has written so many books on the different aspects of their vampire game, it would take longer to research the copyrights to ensure no copying was made than to write the damn book. Another reason not to pursue writing a vamp. game.

Well, a point to be made.

You use the term Storyteller. Its really, really common in games, so no problem there. It's generic, dammit.

You use the term "World of Darkness". I'm sure that's pretty trademarked, it's their branding, etc. so that's one word to stay away from.

But: as for the general ideas in V:tM - there's hardly ANYBODY with the definitive copyright on that! Really.

There's a lot of leeway you can get - there were tons of D&D knock offs back in the day, which were pretty much identical but "Strongfulness" instead of Strength or something like that. (At least, that's what the old-schoolers do say.)

Although names and art (images especially) are copyrighted, the ideas never are, and if we forget that, the terrors have really bloody won. We think you'll have more fun with coming up with novel *ideas* versus the V:tM version, but if I went and copied the tropes behind the WW clans - rename the "Brujah" the "Boo-Yah", etc. - I'm not violating copyright, and I think they have a weak claim on anything at all.

In fact, if you are NOT versed in V:tM while writing about your own Vampire game, then you have a still stronger defense that you're not copying wholesale - but as I say, I think you'd be largely safe.

The moral of the story: there are essentially NO cases where you should feel that you can't write game X because of fear of stepping intellectual property W, because especially within genres, there are tropes (Elder Vamps, light-sabers) that most everybody will use and reuse.

lol for the Penny Arcade link. I liked that alot, and it does speak a good bit of truth.

I may work on this in the future, but not at this time. I've come up with something that might be really fun and original to everyone; I did a search on the web earlier and it seems that no one has created a game along these lines as yet, so I may be in luck.

Rather than a game based upon the killing of endless enemies and getting their treasure, I am writing up a demo for a game which is based primarily on solving puzzles in order to progress further into an immersive story.

More on this will come later, but I don't want to give too much away at this time..... :O

yeah, man, i say go for it. the first thing that you have to consider in gaming is your fun factor. if you're having fun designing this game and its setting then just run with it. you obviously have some ideas for your Orders, and i do agree with you on the Clans insofar as how they have been developed over the various different editions of the game.

honestly though, don't listen to us, or at least me. ;-)

make your game, have fun. don't worry about copyright until you've decided to publish, then you can just pick up a copy of Vapire third, find the copyrights page and adjust accordingly.

also, the entire World of Darkness line is going the way of the dodo, so maybe you could be the second coming of Mark Rein(dot)Hagen.

laters.

If I were writing a vampire game, in which the players were playing supernatural, ostensibly immortal creatures, I'd play up the ostensibly immortal angle (I say ostensibly because immortal does not mean unkillable).

V:tM always pushes you to play new vampires. Why? Because they're stuck in the old D&D, linear character advancement scheme. They don't want Elders in the hands of players, because it unbalances the Storyteller's ability to traverse the grand metaplot that the designers have set up for us ("Thank you oh great game designers for this pre-fab world. Lucita is so hot. Anatole is so spooky").

In my mind, the coolest thing about the Highlander TV show was the flashbacks. I'd create a mechanic around that, and use it as the vehicle for character development.

Basic idea of how it works: You have your character, right? He looks about 25, because, well hey, all V:tM characters look about 25. No one knows how old he really is (maybe the player knows). He could really be 28, or 280, 2800, or whatever. It doesn't matter at the beginning, because these details come out during the course of the game. And they come out as a result of the flashback mechanic, which would allow for anything from new skills added to the sheet, to new NPCs the character knows (friends and enemies), to background elements about the character ("Wow, you fought for the South?" "Yeah, we lost").

And because they all develop at roughly the same rate (say you have a rule like "only X flashbacks per session", or it costs points or something), elders are now on fairly equal footing with newbies.

Your character runs across a certain situation where X skill would be handy, like say, being able to land a plane after the pilot bailed out and left you to crash, so roll for Flashback, and Bam! he was a fighter pilot in WWII, flying night misions over Berlin; add Pilot to the sheet.

Or you come across a serial killer that's stirring up trouble in your territory, making it difficult for you to feed. Roll for Flashback, and Bam! That's the work of Marcus so-and-so, your old nemesis from ancient rome that you thought was dead.

The only other thing you'd really need is some sort of method for making sure that flashbacks don't contradict what's come before, or if they do, find a way to explain it.

[In the previous examples, read "Roll for Flashback" as "Invoke Flashback Mechanics", whatever they may be.]

A brief side note on the character sheet: I like to think of the sheet as your character's resume. A resume is not a moment-by-moment accounting of one's entire career, but merely a list of one's achievements and highlights. I don't mention that I worked at McDonald's for 3 years on my resume, and neither should your character have to do so.

This goes back to what I've said many times before (I apologize if I repeat myself): characters don't necessarily have to get more powerful as they go along, they should get more interesting.

-- Ben

Ben Morgan wrote: Basic idea of how it works: You have your character, right? He looks about 25, because, well hey, all V:tM characters look about 25. No one knows how old he really is (maybe the player knows). He could really be 28, or 280, 2800, or whatever. It doesn't matter at the beginning, because these details come out during the course of the game. And they come out as a result of the flashback mechanic, which would allow for anything from new skills added to the sheet, to new NPCs the character knows (friends and enemies), to background elements about the character ("Wow, you fought for the South?" "Yeah, we lost").

Heya Brian,

As someone who has met and talked with several people on this board in real life, I can tell you that they honestly want nothing more than to help you make the best game you can. They aren't just saying things because they think they are clerver, better than you, trying to keep you out of the market, whatever.

I'm sure that your game is good. But a game needs to be both good and different to get noticed and accepted. I personaly like Heartbreakers, but the people here (me included) want to push designs to be more than that. We want a new experience, something we had never seen before.

Let me try to make an example. Wendy's is an excellent fast food joint. Best food, good prices. But it's nothing special to see a new one built. Even if the ingrediants they use were to come strait off the farm and they had the best burger chef in the world working at it. We've all been to one, nothing new. But a fast food join that sold Greek cuisine is something new and would, at the very least, generate a lot of interest and discussion. See what I'm getting at?

No one, not a single person here, would say that you dont have the right to produce the kind of game you wanted. Even Ron in his heartbreaker articles said he defends the Heartbreaker's right to exist. But what gets people really jazzed up is a game with a new mechanic, new insight, new theme, or new style that no one has seen before or one that has barely been developed.

I really wish you the best of luck. Dont give up on designing all together. Just have the patience to refine your ideas.

Peace,

-Troy

Yes, of course; I never thought anyone was trying to be mean or anything like that with their ideas concerning this project. If anyone was, I didn't take it that way; I take alot of things in stride and as a learning experience rather than an insult, anyway.

Anywho, here's that other thing I have been drawing up some concept writing on, talked about in http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9330.

I've just been working with the vampire model too much, as it got me quite stressed out and overwhelmed me a bit with the similarities to Whtie Wolf, so I'm gonna try and break some new ground on this other project for a while, as I've seen nothing like it out there as yet, though there may be something similar somewhere.

One last bit of advice: Ignore anyone who cries, "But that's not what vampires are like!"

hehe Indeed, gobi. That's definitely a good piece of advice.