In a Fae game, aging becomes a big deal, chipping away at their immortality. It is a cup out of the pool of eternity. Its a big honkin' deal, man.

This is the color I am thinking of using to give a different flavor to aging.

It isn't an instant process. When you age, the rest of the world freezes, in a gray haze and the Sorcerer is the only one able to move. The spell is in living color, effecting those who it has been cast on. There is little light in this half-dead otherworld. The only light is the spell and its lines of effect. You can spend your time there following them if you wish.

You can follow the glowing thread from the guardsman whose helmet you've shrunk, destroying his skull. You can following a line of cause and effect, seeing his family, waiting for him at home. You could follow a thinner line to his parents, proud of their son the guard, who has made something of himself.

You can follow a line from the evil Sorcerer, whose magic you just sapped. You can see his apprentice, eager to see his master die so he can inherit his power. You can see the lives the bastard has destroyed.

You can't read the letters on the Sorcerer's desk, they are too dim, too inconsequential in this otherworld.

When you come back to the world it seems like only a second has gone by and now your hair is long and you have a beard. Not true, the Sorcerer knows better. It was months of solitude, a lonely and painful time.

Out of game, it is a time for the Seneschal to show a player something they've missed, a tidbit or morsel that might be tasty.

I'm also thinking of getting the players good and used to being alone in this aging otherworld and then seeing what happens when a magical creature isn't asleep with everyone else.

Woops.

Fun.

Comments, ideas, criticism?

I really like this. It gives even more reason for wizards to be recluses. It also lends a fae-like quality to magic in general. The fae, being all magical in some way or another, would have almost no concept of the normal passage of time. I can see kinds of fae who slip in and out of the greylands without even casting spells. They wouldn't age unless they had, but they would still be there. There could even be ways of these fae learning how to slip in and out volentarily and even move to new locations by doing so. To the rest of the world it would seem like teleportation, to them it would be a normal walk, heck, they might not even realize they were doing it.

I also like the idea of creatures that live there all the time. They wouldn't even be able to be percieved by the rest of the world at all. Living in the spaces between seconds, moving through time like we move through space.

Or walking in the greylands to the den of a dragon or the roost of a sphynx and have it raise it's head and look at you. All of a sudden you realize that you cannot effect anything at all, and you're not sure if that holds true to your new aquaintance.

Fun.

wolfsong wrote: Living in the spaces between seconds, moving through time like we move through space.

Damn. I'm floored. That's how I run it from now on. 10 points for Paka.

Jake

dang.... that is cool. Imagine two spells were cast simultaneously. would the sorcerers be able to interact in the skewed otherworld of aging?

That's some pretty cool shit.

I'm not reluctant to cast a spell because it'll age me 4 months, I'm reluctant because I have to experience those 4 months in real time, in the cold darkness of the beyond, where I can do nothing but waste away and watch myself age as everyone else remains static. And then, after a tormentous long wait, the crashing return of light, color and sensation as the world returns to normal and I have to force myself to once again begin to care...

Damn Paka, that's cool.

Methinks I'm seeing something else that will be going into SatF, with a nice little acknowledgement at the beginning.

Color me impressed too.

Thanks, folks. It is swell that ya dig the concept.

I also like the idea of using the effect to further story and promote the display of consequences and/or magical shit and/or a story point that the Seneschal wants to put in italics for the players.

A superb idea...

Especially in a Solo campaign, all centered round the experiencies of a lone adept.

I wanna run a mage so badly now.

It would have to be tempered well in mutliplay, however, lest aging turns into the 'hacking tortures' that we endured in Shadowrun. Play stops and a six-hour 'hacking the mainframe' session ensues. All other players cease to exist.

Gotta make sure the other players dont end up resenting the mage. If with every spell, action is frozen and the other players are excluded from play, then that mage will swiftly become unpopular.

The idea of sorcery acting as a beacon to other, possibly more powerful, entities, is also a great idea. Too much ripping of the cosmos, and you might as well be announcing your presence to the thousand cackling things which lurk from the fringes of existence, their tentacles a-tentacling.

The amount of aging incurred, over days at a time, or maybe just bound to a specific local (like a house, swamp, etc...), would indicate the level of interest aroused.

several months of aging and maybe the planes are twisted sufficiently to allow a small spirit through (a minor daemon, a poltergeist maybe, or some forgotten soul which had died horribly nearby).

A bit more aging and it's proper daemons being pulled through. Or the awareness of rival mages, bitter and jealous rival mages, being brought to bear on our hapless wizard.

Huge amounts of aging and.... I hardly dare mention. But those tentacly things cum a knocking possibly.


Take care,

Marc

*drooools* Paka has just made me want to play a sorceror. That is impressive as hell.
If only I could come up with shit like that.

I also very much like wolfsong's idea about moving through seconds as if they were space. This opens the door to possible time-travel, time-warping, bending, etc. And then there's the pandora's box of going into the past and making a change to history, and see how it alters the present, and so on.

Good god that's interesting.
-Ingenious
:edited to add to Vanguard's concern about cooperative play
Instead of making everything static at that point of casting a spell... have everything become REAAAAAAALLY SLOW. That way people are still moving, and can eventually do something. *shrug*

I don't think other players would be so much an issue, to be honest.

The way I see it, you wouldn't force the mage player to roleplay out the down-time every time he casts a spell (because yes, that would annoy other players, and probably the sorcerer player too). But certainly the first time, and occasionally after that. If it's done right, the other players will look forward to what's happening and listen with interest, rather than just say "Oh no, another downtime while Bob mopes aropund in a time stop zone".

And then, as each time you DO actually describe the effect (which doesn't have to take all that long really), but you subtly introduce freaky things, and pave the way for the tentacled horror (or whatever) to eventually emerge, all the players will be hanging on it, not just the sorcerer player.

You could have some serious fun with this. It's a damn nifty idea.

Brian.

Hi,

Paka wrote: It isn't an instant process. When you age, the rest of the world freezes, in a gray haze and the Sorcerer is the only one able to move. The spell is in living color, effecting those who it has been cast on. There is little light in this half-dead otherworld. The only light is the spell and its lines of effect. You can spend your time there following them if you wish.

If it occurs at an exact point in time, you would pretty much never freeze at the exact same time as another sorcerer (especially if you can infinitely subdivide units of time), so you don't really need to worry about what you can do with regards to other sorcerers in the space-beyond-time. Whoever does the spell first would do his time, whoever does it later would do his subsequently. Similarly, creatures that live in the space-beyond-time would themselves by necessity have a differently relationship to time that could possibly be interesting to examine.

Of course, the existance of something else itself in the space-beyond-time, and the ability of the caster and others to act within that space, means that there is time in the other place, but that it moves similarly but not in relation to real time. Depending on the metaphysics decided upon, this could potentially invalidate my speculations in the first paragraph as well...

kenjib wrote: If it occurs at an exact point in time, you would pretty much never freeze at the exact same time as another sorcerer (especially if you can infinitely subdivide units of time), so you don't really need to worry about what you can do with regards to other sorcerers in the space-beyond-time. Whoever does the spell first would do his time, whoever does it later would do his subsequently. Similarly, creatures that live in the space-beyond-time would themselves by necessity have a differently relationship to time that could possibly be interesting to examine.

Ian.Plumb wrote: Hi,

Paka wrote:

Will the spell caster try to gain an unexpected advantage from this? For instance, can the spell caster cast another spell during the period of solitary confinement? Can they heal? Can they in any way use the time productively -- to improve skills, to formularize spells, to work in a world completely free of distraction?

Can the spell-caster follow the spell lines to see who the individual is connected to and use this as an information gathering tool -- discover co-conspirators perhaps or a traitor within the party?

Can the spell-caster, in a tight combat situation, cast a spell with the intent of aging so that they have ample time to walk around and study the scene? Formulate the optimal response?

Is the spell-caster able to contact other spell-casters that are also in the midst of an aging-duration? Can the spell-caster construct an abode in this nether-world and a portal between the real world and this twilight realm?

If you implement this rule the players will attempt to exploit it -- so have your definitions, limits and counter-measures ready!

A neat idea though -- adds depth to the core concept.

Cheers,

My first instinct is no healing, no skill use, no formulizing of spells, no studying the scene too carefully. Areas of light and dark are very much a part of the Seneschal's tool kit in making this otherworld not a place of combat study but a place of introspection and knowledge of your spell's ramifications.

It would have to be narrated in a brisk but weighty manner to show the player the passing of time in this half-dead, half alive place but not take away from the game's flow. Ultimately, if it doesn't make the game more magical, drop it.

Contacting other spellcasters and finding a portal from the twilight realm to reality is really interesting and could be the focus of an entire campaign but if it is stalling a combat, nix it.

I hadn't even thought about a group casting. That would be interesting and makes covens of casters an even more logical and closely knit thing. Suddenly these are people with whom you will spend months or eventually years of your life in a grey otherworld. Neat. That is bonding.

I'd make it perfectly clear what the realm was in order to attempt to avoid too much cheesiness. But a little eye-balling of the competition wouldn't be a terrible thing.

True, lines would have to be drawn and carefully.

I like the idea of two casters who have cast spells at the same moment, going to the otherworld together.

I think I'd run it that they can't harm each other. Weapons are dull, fists weak, like in a dream where you can attack all you want but it comes to nothing. Perhaps there are some ancient weapons that can do harm in the greyworld but they are rarities.

Some particularly nasty cabals will get a colleague to do a collaborative spell with them if they have such a weapon and wish to do away with him, leave his corpse in the greyworld for time itself to feed on. What happens to a spirit brought back from the dead who has spent a near eternity in such a place? Or casting a spell and stumbling across a corpse that was not in the room in the real world.

A fun toy to play with.

I have all these wonderful images floating around in my head...

Opening a book and seeing nothing but blurred lines, even attempting to write one and having the letters slowly fade into incoherancy and eventually vanishing compleatly, stitching up a wound (with all the pain that entails) only to have it slowly re-open itself the closer one gets to going back to the real world. Casting a spell with another Mage and attempting to speak with them only to find that your voice is muffled and distant and your partner is slightly blurred and looks like he's moving through murky water.
A mage could do whatever they wanted in the grey world, but before they went back everything would revert to the way it was at the time of the casting. Even them. Imagine walking for months on an empty road away from wherever the spell was cast only to see the party you left, still frozen in space, on the horizon very slowly drifting twards you, pulling you inexplicably back to the place you needed to be in order for reality to right itself.

The movement vagery: So a spell is cast to move something somewhere, but the resist roll is failed. Now you actually get to watch the object move in the Greylands.

Sculpture: You get to watch as something very very slowly rearanges itself. If the something is living.... Ick

No hunger or sleeping, nothing to make the time pass faster, inability to do anything even remotely productive. Living in a cold, grey lifeless nowhere without real light, sound or life. Sounds like my definition of hell.

Hi,

wolfsong wrote: No hunger or sleeping, nothing to make the time pass faster, inability to do anything even remotely productive. Living in a cold, grey lifeless nowhere without real light, sound or life. Sounds like my definition of hell.

"I also very much like wolfsong's idea about moving through seconds as if they were space. This opens the door to possible time-travel, time-warping, bending, etc. And then there's the pandora's box of going into the past and making a change to history, and see how it alters the present, and so on."

Perhaps that has something to do with how men got to weyrth in the first place before their recored history.

I'm not trying to be the head honcho of the Otherworld here and everyone will handle this in their own way...

but...here are my two ducats on the matter.

I like the idea of some sick bastard who enjoys his time away from reality. No doubt they exist and in doing so they quickly spend their time in the real world, using it to exist in a place sideways to our world. To someone, someone not too well, it could be seen as a pleasant escape...maybe.

But that person would be the exception to the rule. I wouldn't allow for any statistical improvements to be made in this world. Skills couldn't get any better, wounds don't heal but just give off a dull ache and the world where things matter, where your SA's can be achieved has stopped, leaving the character with nothing to do but consider the amazing sorcererous power they have just thrown around. They have a painful amount of time to consider this alone, without any way to write observations down or cast any further spells, without any companionship but the odd, unfriendly spirits who would inhabit (how did wolfsong put it), who inhabit the place in between seconds.

Aside from that, what it really means to me is a way to further the story, using what I saw as the most interesting part of the Sorcerery system to make the already fascinating TROS magic system all the more magical.

When I thought of two sorcerors casting their spells at the same time, and then both being in the grey world, I had this idea of them having some epic struggle.
It wouldn't necessarily be much of a physical battle, but more of some sort of mental and psychological battle. Imagine two wizards who have been rivals for years, and they finally face off, only to find themselves in the grey world at the same time. While maybe not in an attempt to kill the other, but in an attempt to drive the other insane, they could fight in this grey world.
or perhaps, rather than fighting eachother, they would have to fight those unthinkable beasts that live within the grey world in order to survive, all the while trying to make the other be defeated by the strange things. Even stranger yet, the two enemies could have to join forces temporarily in order to battle off the twisted creatures of this grey world. MAybe even realizing that they do not want to fight, but it is too late, since they have both already cast their spells, and all they could do is wait for the terrible effects of what they have done.

Heh heh, just a funny thought. imagine if two sorcerors were in the grey world, and one finds out that the other cast a spell far better than him, and he had pretty much lost the battle.

I just finished playing Legacy of Kain: Defiance. I imagine the Greylands (as I call it) to be something like the underworld that Raziel travels between throughout the game. (if you haven't played any of the series I highly recommend them, if for no other reason than to have the neccessary background to play Defiance. Amazing game.) The main differance of course being static time.

I love the idea of a slightly darker, more twisted world on the other side of our perception, I especially like Paka's "body in the room, but only on the Otherside." idea. What a great way to start a murder mystery game. The questions that spring to mind are: If somone had a weapon that could do real damage in the Greylands how would that work? Would it only work if both parties were there at the same time? If it could effect people in the real world from the greylands it would be terrifying indeed. What would happen to the body? Would it simply materialize wounds in the real world? (if so it would be the ultimate assassins tool) Would the real power of the weapon be the ability to pull other people into the Greylands involentarily, and even if it couldn't hurt them, could the weapon's wielder just leave them there? If someone died in the Greylands, for whatever reason, what would happen to the corpse?

Now I'm all hyped about a game where a group of players is pulled into the greylands and is stranded. How would they get out?

Or how's this:

Major Flaw (gifted): Out of Phase
The charecter is prone to slip in and out of the greylands. Usually when sleeping or is otherwise incapacitated. Everytime the charecter falls unconcious or asleep roll WP/8 (or something) or slip sideways. This acts as random aging, actual time spent is dependant on how badly the roll was failed.

If this world really is a half-way place, as has been suggested, where is it halfway to.

Can anyone explain why my same post is up there three times? I'm at a loss, myself

Krammer,

After you hit "submit", don't touch anything again until it comes back with "your message has been posted", and then don't use the back button on your browser.

I'll delete two of the three identical messages for you.

Brian.

in the Sorcery Concept thread, Ingenious wrote:

...could your character not be able to 'see' what the target character in this situation will do ahead of time, thus being able to manipulate the energy of the spell and modify it to counteract the future actions? Have it be then, that when creating an initial spell... and it has to be modified... the sorcerer already has seen in, pops back into the 'static' real world before the spell is finished, then everything goes back into motion... the sorcerer modifies the spell, the spell gets finished and everything happens according to what the sorcerer wanted.

A friend of mine and I have been bouncing ideas of of each other in regards to this topic. One of the things that got us really fired up was the concept of wizards duel in the Greylands. Two wizards mystically duking it out sinking ever farther into eldrich darkness beyond space and time. They couldn't really hurt each other there, but the spells would stack and stack and then go off all at once, after they got back. I really liked the idea of the two expending all of their spell energy, not being certain who really won, and having to join forces to fight off the locals and find their way back, just so one or the other (or both) could die.

We decided that there was really no reason that a mage couldn't continue to use magic in the greylands, it just couldn't effect the real world at all, (unless they were casting magic at a target in the greylands who then went back to the real world, like in the above description.) and we thought it would be mighty cool if using magic there would sink a mage even further away from the real world. We also thought it would be interesting if some of the things that live in the lands beyond actually fed on ambient magic or spell residue. Attracting these creatures could be quite hazardous to a mages health, especially if the mage also happened to be Fae.

This would also explain why mage rivalrys haven't destroyed big chunks of the world of unraveled reality. Most wizards battles couldn't even really effect anything but each other.

Paka, I know your idea is perfect for story hooks and so forth, but I was only attempting to expand on your idea to fit a different situation. This can be a momentary thing, this seeing the consequences of his actions... more-over.. I can revise my idea by saying that the mage does not see the future actions of his targets, but he can see the future actions of his spell and the consequences of if the spell works as intended or fails. He THEN can see that, realize it, travel back to the static world and revise his spell... and then be sent BACK to the overworld because he modified his spell... sees if it works or fails, and repeats the process if it fails UNTIL IT WORKS. (It's the most brutally simple answer I could come up with in a comprimising sort of fashion for all parties involved in the idea) And it seems to work well, at least in my mind.

-Ingenious
'But, in my mind.. I am God.'

The big "advantage" to sorcerers doing this, it seems to me, is that the Sorcerer has time to look around. Even if things are shadowy, if the Evil Sorcerer's apprentice is just in the other room, I'll find that out during my time, and be able to mentally prepare for what I'm going to do when I return.

Call this the Jackson/Travolta effect. Appears to be divine intervention if when the guy comes out of the closet with his gun blazing the sorcerer knows to duck before it happens. So in a "tactical" situation, I think there's a huge advantage to this effect in terms of being able to aquire intelligence.

Further, if a character ages in this world (that's the idea, no?) then why wouldn't he also heal up? If it's not supposed to make sense, then why do we need the rationale in the first place?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I like the imagery too (mayhap Ringwraiths live there almost constantly?). It's just that some of the ramifications ought to be considered.

Mike

When using this technique the Seneschal would have to be very careful when considering what to describe. Luckily, the greyspace is a dimly lit otherworld, whose light, dimensions and perceptions aren't governed by any clear logic.

What the players sees and doesn't see is entirely up to the Senescal. It could be used as a way of the PC getting a handle on a situation, only if the Senescal wanted that. It oculd be used to watch a kind of consequence of the spell just cast if the Seneschal has something to say in that arena. Or it could just be used as another method of describing the price of casting these spells as time spent in a grey otherworldly prison where wounds don't heal and seconds tumble by in total isolation.

The big thesis of this special effect is this: The Sorcerer is alone. There are few who are the Sorcerer's peers and many of them will try to kill him. There are beasts who share this magic but the Sorcerer willl frequently not understand their odd minds.

I am glad people are questioning this because it allows me to hone and sharpen my ideas on the matter.

Thanks.

Paka wrote: I like the idea of some sick bastard who enjoys his time away from reality. No doubt they exist and in doing so they quickly spend their time in the real world, using it to exist in a place sideways to our world. To someone, someone not too well, it could be seen as a pleasant escape...maybe.

But that person would be the exception to the rule. I wouldn't allow for any statistical improvements to be made in this world. Skills couldn't get any better, wounds don't heal but just give off a dull ache and the world where things matter, where your SA's can be achieved has stopped, leaving the character with nothing to do but consider the amazing sorcererous power they have just thrown around. They have a painful amount of time to consider this alone, without any way to write observations down or cast any further spells, without any companionship but the odd, unfriendly spirits who would inhabit (how did wolfsong put it), who inhabit the place in between seconds.

For me the real implication of the greylands, as we're calling them, is boredom. Being bored off your rocker for 6 months, only to exit it and not feel better rested or anything. No advantages. Nothing good at all. It just plain sucks.

Jake

Ironically Jake, 6 months of sheer boredom is alot like a mirror image of my life for the next 7 or 8... presuming I work at the same seasonal job next year....

So I'm not liking the idea of having to spend months and months in a depraved world, with no entertainment... and nothing to keep a superior mind like a sorceror's occupied. Like others have previously stated, it would drive someone mad.

-Ingenious

Psychological Argument

But it is a magic otherworld. Real world psychological studies on sensory dep. don't count. If wounds don't bleed nor heal maybe the mind preceives differently too. The world keeps you sane, keeps your mind from doing what it normally would do to keep itself whole or reject the horror of the situation.

Otherworld Player Cues

I would take my cues from the players. How interested are they in the theories behind magic and what the greyworld really is? If not, the description of the place will be no more than how long it would take to describe the growing of hair and fingernails for Sorcerery's aging.

If interest is piqued, game time will grow a bit. It will never eclipse combat or kill combat's flow but it will become more and more fleshed out and a dark, frightening world in its own right, the more the players show interest in poking and prodding about.

No interest, and it is just a pretty pained backdrop on a movie set.

More Flavor

The next TROS game I run will most likely by the Riddle of Twilight, a Fae game.

The altered priority system will allow players to be ancient Fae. The greyworld will be known affectionately among the Fae as Death's Parlor and was once a shining bastion of magic, a bridge on the way to the Twilight Realms. Now it is a dingy colorless place, signifying the change in the world since the Seelie and Unseelie left (or were banished).

I would have percievability in the greylands be dependant on how long something has been in one place in the real world or how old it is in general. People, who have a tendancy to move about, would hardly be able to be percieved, if at all. (thus negating the "i see him in the other room and know he'll jump out at me when I return" problem) Trees and such, which don't move around much, would be hazy reflections of their real world selves. Same with things like the ground, and distant mountains. Graveyards. (cool images there) Maybe a hazy lighter blur across the sky where the sun travels every day. If a wizard was in a house when he cast a spell, if it was a newer house it might not exist yet in the greylands. Or it might be translucent, not quite having built a ethereal reflection yet.

Magic and magicalal creatures, by contrast could be sharply outlined and almost Hyper-real. (in the grey-blue dismal fog that masks everything, the only color or life that exists at all is coming from that Dragon. What do you do?) One of the cool things about this aproach is that anything using magic to hide itself would be starkly visable from the greylands, not the creature themselves but the magical residue of the still active spell would be quite obvious to another caster in the area. I fugure, as long as a spell is active (and even for a little while after it fades) the magic would be visable from the greylands. Maybe pool refresh time is how long it takes the magic to fade and be reabsorbed by the mage who cast it.

This aproach makes for a very barren, bleak world, exept in the incredably rare event of two magic creatures both using magic at aprox. the same time and one of them failing their resist roll.

Like anything else in a game, players (the crafty little devils that they are) are going to want to use it to their advantage. That's fine. I say let them, Try assigning differant colors to vagerys so that a mage miight be able to decipher what that fading spell residue is, or let them try to track the evil mage by the trail leading to him from his spell as his pool refreshes. Sure. The one thing that must be kept in mind is the cost of these advantages. The greylands are not a place players should ever want to go. It is the embodyment of failure and death. If the percieved results are worth that price to them than let them have it. and remember, anything the players come up with can be used against them. Perhaps a group of greylands fae tracking a PC mage who's been frivilous with his power's residue trail, with the intent of syphoning off magic to try to save their dying ruler or some such. And all the PC knows is that his pool isn't refreshing....

It's the first rule of gaming. Players will try to turn everything to their advantage. Dont let them. A player of mine in a DnD game wanted a mercurial greatsword. Without the argument about how stupid and broken they are, I said yes and introduced an overpowered weapon into the hands of a 2nd level fighter. For a while he felt like he was god. Then the party ran into the race of Elves from the frozen north who left no tracks in the snow, could teleport through snowdrifts, summon blizzards and who wielded Mercurial greatswords as cultural weapons. heh heh. Mercury doesn't freeze easy, and it's poisonous. The players all wanted to kill him by the end of the session.

wow.

What a rant. I sure am a long winded bastard aren't I.

The idea I had to counter the boredom of was have them deal with whatever foul creatures live in the greylands. If there are none around, or the spell wasn't big enough to attract any, then the time spent in the Greyland will get little description and then back to the realworld.

if there are creatures around, then the game will focus on it for a while more. The way I plan on running it in my games, is have it so that the creatures within the greyland cannot be killed, but the sorceror can. that way, it is more of a fight for survival, where you can only keep the beast back, and not get rid of it. Of course, I wouldn't focus on them battling this creature for the whole time, that would take forever, rather, I would have them deal with it for a short while, no more than a few minutes, then, depending on how they do there, they will either be dead, or survive til the aging is past.

I have not yet run a session since this stuff has come up, but when I do, I hope to have this work.

Today, hopefully, I will run a former d20 Midnight game in TROS. If the player who is a Sorcerer shows I will describe aging as if he were giving those months to the Shadow in the North...their Sauron-clone who won the Final Battle, 99 years ago.

It will feel like sa dark god ripped away those years and took an icy dump on your soul.

Not as complicated as a grey otheworld but still...it has its charm.

Paka wrote:
It will feel like sa dark god ripped away those years and took an icy dump on your soul.

Not as complicated as a grey otheworld but still...it has its charm.