Okay, this has been bugging me for some time:

why are swordsmen so pitifully, horribly bad at Body Language? They get the Body Language skill at +3 as a part of their package - so a swordsman with a priorty A skill category would have Body Language at 9.

Now let's take a Thief with a priority A skill category - he takes Thief and, oh, Laborer, and then spends 1 point of MA to pick up Body Language. Ta-da, he learns it at 6. A swordsman spending 1 point of MA would bring Body Language from 9 down to 8...

Why does swordplay make Body Language so HARD?

Well, in this case.. as a seneschal I would say that any skill that is in a skill packet that has a plus or a minus to it.. use that even when characters buy that skill with an MA point. So the theif would also have body language at 9.
That's in the core book I know... under complexity of skills in book 3 I beleive. Whichever page has them there skill packets on em.

Just my suggestion.
-Ingenious

Lxndr wrote: Why does swordplay make Body Language so HARD?

Swordsmen are just insensitive clods. Naturally, they can't tell a triumphant smile from a grimace of pain.

Brian Leybourne wrote:

Lxndr wrote: Why does swordplay make Body Language so HARD?

Because all good swordsmen look like Ah-nold and it's hard to see their body language through all the rippling muscles?

Brian.

Lxndr wrote: Okay, this has been bugging me for some time:

why are swordsmen so pitifully, horribly bad at Body Language? They get the Body Language skill at +3 as a part of their package - so a swordsman with a priorty A skill category would have Body Language at 9.

Now let's take a Thief with a priority A skill category - he takes Thief and, oh, Laborer, and then spends 1 point of MA to pick up Body Language. Ta-da, he learns it at 6. A swordsman spending 1 point of MA would bring Body Language from 9 down to 8...

Why does swordplay make Body Language so HARD?

A possible explanation, but not one that really holds much water in my book.. When you spend points from MA, it implies more dedication than what comes from Skill Packets, as you're spending time and energy (represented by the MA points) outside of your normal field of study. In the case of Body Language and Style Analysis (+3, and +2, respectively) the "default" swordsmanship school touches on these briefly, giving a very rough understanding of them, but does not spend as much time bringing it up to the same level as actual sword skill and other related skills.

All in all though, Swordsman isn't much of a prize as far as skill packets go.. You get at least 2 less individual skills than any other packet, and 2 out of the 5 are more heavily penalized than any other skill in any other packet.

Also, to address Ingenious reference to a guideline that skills should be assigned a + or a - in the book.. That guideline suggests at most a +1 or -1, rather than the +2 and +3 given to swordsmen.

All humorous answers aside, I also would like to know if there is an official explanation for this. It's something I've noticed often before, but never really though worth mentioning. As Lx has brought it up, I figured I'd weigh in on it, though.

It's not just MA, though, Lance. It's also if you spend SA on the skill later - 2 SA points and you get it at 9, while the BEST swordsman (skill-wise) starts at 9 (and worse swordsmen get it at 10, 11, or 12).

I looked for a guideline last night, such as the one Ingenious is claiming is in the core book, but saw no guideline that specifically addressed MA skills. As far as I can tell, new skills bought with MA have no modification to them whatsoever. Ingenious, could you dredge up a page reference for me? 'Cause I can't find it anywhere in the section you were describing.

Ingenious wrote: Well, in this case.. as a seneschal I would say that any skill that is in a skill packet that has a plus or a minus to it.. use that even when characters buy that skill with an MA point.

Point made, Lx. As I said, my possible explanation didn't hold much water for me anyway.

To be honest, Ingenious' and Toli's solution doesn't really do it for me. It isn't supported (tho' they're not forbidden, either) by the rules, and it seems a little.. clunky. It doesn't address the fact that Swordsman is easily the least beneficial packet, nor does it address the fact that different skill packets have different ratings for different skills (ex. Woodsman and Knight, which both have Hunting, but one at a -1 and one at base rating).

My solution thus far has been to shrug and leave it alone. Unless someone comes up with something that really seems to fit, then likely that will be my continued solution.

Wolfen wrote: It doesn't address the fact that Swordsman is easily the least beneficial packet,

I can't see giving the skill to other characters as a better level than to some one who takes the skill packet, however.

Wolfen wrote: The point is not to make it harder for people to get this skill, but rather to ask why it's so hard for trained swordsmen to use it,

I'd house-rule it by rebuilding the swordsman skill package using the guidelines for building new packages, rather than messing around with how people get skills from MA or SA expenditure in-game.

Yeah, sheesh, it's a flaw.

Either make it cheaper or make it more expensive as an MA choice, or follow the skill-packet doubling rule (in modification), so that if you buy it at MA, then you get it at the better rating minus one. Hah.

Jake

No, It's not a flaw... (don't let 'em brow bet ya' Jake!)

I treat skill modifiers as being a permanent modifier if a PC buys it with MA or gets it with a skill packet. - doing it the other way is just cheating!

Body language needs to start out heavily penalized because it is so brutally effective in combat once a PC has gotten the TN down to 4-5 or so.

Many of you have obviously not been present when a Swordsman PC has been played with a low Body language target number. Say you have a TN of 4-5 and a Per of 6 (it's already easy to get to these levels)

You now have a player who can get 2-4 additional defensive dice Every exchange! This is not an Sa this is a skill and a PC would stay on the defensive and be able to use these extra dice anytime he wanted. (like an SA that is always firing)

In combat those additional 2-4 dice are HUGE.

Non-swordsman PC's should be just as heavily penalized as starting swordsmen, if not more when they buy this skill.

Personally, I just limited penalties from skill packets to +1 (anything less would be kinda stupid, since MA can deliver at packet rating.)

Worked well enough. I have no complaints.

After all, if everyone has body language, it's back in balance.

Yeah, I'd rather see swordsmen get a better body language than have to remember "oh yeah, for this ONE skill, I should add 3 to everyone's scores if THEY pick it up too."

And it does all balance at the end. Plus, since most people WON'T take Body Language (there are a lot of better, or more important-looking, skills out there) that makes the Swordsman even more ascendant.

So, yeah, my "ruling" if I ever run this game would be to reduce the penalties down to +1.