Topic: Concering item quality..
Started by: Ingenious
Started on: 1/24/2004
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 1/24/2004 at 8:52am, Ingenious wrote:
Concering item quality..
Okay, I have not a clue if this has come up in the past or not..
But I did mention it to be discussed in the next IRC chat.. and since that is awhile from now.. I shall ask it here instead.
And I have not found the answer in the book.
Question 1: What modifiers could be applied for 'fine' quality weapons?
Question 2: What modifiers could be applied to 'fine' quality armor?
Question 3: What modifiers could be applied to 'exceptional' items, 'flawless', 'poor', etc?
Question 4: How much more would these new qualitie's cost?
I'd assume that modifiers to ATN's, DTN's, AV, CP penalties, etc are the norm.. but what are they specifically? And I just want to expand on the weapon quality issue. 'Fine' quality might just mean 'greater than average'.. but I'm thinking of items that might be considered works of art or near-perfection.
-Ingenious
On 1/24/2004 at 10:17am, bcook1971 wrote:
RE: Concering item quality..
Sounds like you're pining for your +3 Vorpal Blade.
Spirits of TROS, resist!
On 1/24/2004 at 10:28am, Ingenious wrote:
RE: Concering item quality..
Surely you jest Mr Cook.
I was not pining for some DND +anything weapon. Though I do see how it might be construed as that. I am merely saying for those characters that can afford them(note: Nobility), they might want something that would certainly outclass a high freeman's 'fine' weapon/armor. Aaaaaand since no such thing exists.. I was wondering is all. For example: my character is a low freeman and has many 'fine' quality items.
I'll keep your comments in mind next week too lol.
Be prepared for a crossbow bolt through the neck or a throwing knife through the forehead :-D j/k
The idea stems from having a new fresh character with zero insight points and so forth being a Noble(thus spending A or B), and changing the whole scope of priorities because of this. And were nobles not the most educated and often-times most well versed in certain areas? If I wanted a statistically endowed character.. And A was social B was attributes.. this makes Proficiencies C.. 9. so if I wanted to be competent in the sword and also the bow(nobles hunt I've head) let's say I spend 5 in sword and 4 in bow. That might make me have a combat pool of 10 or 11.. and a missile pool of 9 or 10.. depending on what my reflex and aim would be.
It's a matter of benefiting the user due to the amount of perfection of a weapon's craft that might make a noble like it, to value it as exceptional or a work of art.. and then be paying hand over fist for it.
-Ingenious
On 1/24/2004 at 10:50am, Thanaeon wrote:
RE: Concering item quality..
The page 203 in TRoS book actually does give a few pointers on fine quality items. The suggestion is that a fine quality weapon gainst -1 to ATN or to DTN, for example.
On 1/24/2004 at 2:01pm, Salamander wrote:
Re: Concering item quality..
Ingenious wrote: Okay, I have not a clue if this has come up in the past or not..
But I did mention it to be discussed in the next IRC chat.. and since that is awhile from now.. I shall ask it here instead.
And I have not found the answer in the book.
I referred to the book (Page 203 does sound right) and then I proceeded to House rule it!
Question 1: What modifiers could be applied for 'fine' quality weapons?
With fine quality weapons I go for a decrease in both ATNs and DTNs simultaneously to reflect the overall increased quality of balance and "ergonomic" design of the weapon. I generally don't allow increased damage for weapons.
Question 2: What modifiers could be applied to 'fine' quality armor?
With the "fine armour" option I usually go with a drastically reduced CP penalty. In the game I am running now a duit of fine full harness would have a CP penalty of -1. If your dropping 75 gold on the bloody thing then the coin had better be worth it!
Question 3: What modifiers could be applied to 'exceptional' items, 'flawless', 'poor', etc?
Yeah, I did three categories... Munition Grade, Average or Production Grade and Fine or Quality Manufacture. Munition grade, which is basically the stuff cranked out in preparation for a war is generally not a good as a production grade weapon. The may suffer a reduced ATN/DTN and or just not be a durable, not to mention the finish of the weapon...
Question 4: How much more would these new qualitie's cost?
Munitions Grade: base cost x 0.5-0.6
Munition Grade weapons and armour are basically mass cranked out in preparation for an upcoming war. They are intended to last as long as the war and then be placed back in the armoury or sold to pay for the war. These pieces of equipment tend to work well enough and are the backbone of most battles. These weapons tend to be more fragile and have been known to break at inopportune times (botched rolls or even just too many 1's).
Production Grade: base cost x 1.0
Production Grade equipment is the equipment of the regular soldier and mercenary. They aren't looking for flash or neet-o, but a good working piece of kit. This class of product is known for being sturdy, reliable and decent manufacture. This quality of equipment has to be purposefully attacked in order for it to be broken.
Fine Manufacture: x 5.0
Fine quality weapons and armour are known as the equipment of the amazingly wealthy and kings. This class of weaponry is the finest quality available for love or money. This equipment sees a massive advantage over production weapons in the better numbers all around, had from better balance, metallurgy and over all design consideration. This quality of equipment is just as sturdy as the production equipment.
On 1/24/2004 at 7:51pm, ZazielsRephaim wrote:
RE: Concering item quality..
Thanks, Salamander, for that insight to how you work the issue in your games. Quite similar to how I've been running it so far. It just made sense that a fine quality weapon would have either a bonus to ATN or DTN due to a superbe balance and quality... and Armor... while there are those tempted to increase the AR, I just don't see it working that way. A superb quality and fit will not necissarily make it resist more damage, but will definately allow for more agile movement and a lower CP penalty.
But I have yet to run around in actual armor, so this is mostly hypothesis. In this topic I shall yield to those of you with realworld experience fighting in armor.
YMMV, except when you stand still and do nothing.
-Luke
On 1/24/2004 at 8:00pm, Salamander wrote:
Actually....
I apply the bonus to both ATN & DTN for fine quality weapons.
On 1/26/2004 at 5:01pm, toli wrote:
RE: Concering item quality..
ZazielsRephaim wrote: A superb quality and fit will not necissarily make it resist more damage, but will definately allow for more agile movement and a lower CP penalty.
-Luke
I think there are ways you could rationalize an increase in AV. Higher quality armors might have more "fine points". That is various pieces or additions that would protect joints and the like. I thinking of the various ridges and plates that would prevent lance or other thrusts from sliding up off the breast plate to the neck or head. Some of the mid 15th century armors also had more developed left arm armor to make up for a lack of the shield. Likewise, some of the 16th century amors the fit of the close helment to the gorget is quite intricate to provide as little space for a blade to get up under the helmet as possible.
NT
On 1/26/2004 at 5:06pm, toli wrote:
RE: Re: Concering item quality..
Salamander wrote:
Yeah, I did three categories... Munition Grade, Average or Production Grade and Fine or Quality Manufacture. Munition grade, which is basically the stuff cranked out in preparation for a war is generally not a good as a production grade weapon. The may suffer a reduced ATN/DTN and or just not be a durable, not to mention the finish of the weapon...
What values would you give to Almain Rivet, the munitions grade infantry armor of the beginning of the 16th century--especially the "arm slates"? They wouldn't have the full AV of complete plate armor, but also probably wouldn't have the same CP penalty. They look quite light to me in examples I've see.
On 1/27/2004 at 2:59pm, Salamander wrote:
RE: Re: Concering item quality..
toli wrote:Salamander wrote:
Yeah, I did three categories... Munition Grade, Average or Production Grade and Fine or Quality Manufacture. Munition grade, which is basically the stuff cranked out in preparation for a war is generally not a good as a production grade weapon. The may suffer a reduced ATN/DTN and or just not be a durable, not to mention the finish of the weapon...
What values would you give to Almain Rivet, the munitions grade infantry armor of the beginning of the 16th century--especially the "arm slates"? They wouldn't have the full AV of complete plate armor, but also probably wouldn't have the same CP penalty. They look quite light to me in examples I've see.
If we are talking about a version of Black & White 3/4 or 1/2 harness then I would basically keep the CP Penalties, reduce the AVs and movement penalties. Got a link to a pic? I'll be able to give you my opinion better then.
On 1/27/2004 at 4:58pm, toli wrote:
RE: Re: Concering item quality..
Salamander wrote:
If we are talking about a version of Black & White 3/4 or 1/2 harness then I would basically keep the CP Penalties, reduce the AVs and movement penalties. Got a link to a pic? I'll be able to give you my opinion better then.
No I'm not talking about 3/4 or 1/2 harness. For those I'd leave the AVs the same for the covered parts and drop the CP to account for no leg armor (or only tassets).
Almain rivet was used to refer to a munitions grade armor produced in germany (hence almain) and imported especially in England especially in the early 1500's. I don't sure how to post this as a link (but here goes), but there is a picture here:
http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1220_gothic/from_regions.php
The arm defenses are quite light and certainly wouldn't give the protection of plate, but I doubt they'd be as cumbersome either.
On 1/27/2004 at 6:56pm, Salamander wrote:
RE: Concering item quality..
So a version of 3/4 harness. I am calling it thusly in a loose fashion just because there is at least some (not very much, but some) protection for the arms.
I would say that the AV for the arms would be reduced by 2 or 3 points, the body by one and the CP penalty would be reduced by one. The movement Penalty would also be reduced by one or two, depending upon how you penalize armour in your game.
On 1/27/2004 at 7:04pm, toli wrote:
RE: Concering item quality..
Salamander wrote: So a version of 3/4 harness.
I would say that the AV for the arms would be reduced by 2 or 3 points, the body by one and the CP penalty would be reduced by one. The movement Penalty would also be reduced by one or two, depending upon how you penalize armour in your game.
Yes it is a sort of half or 3/4 harness. It was much cheaper than demilance armor (say real 3/4 or 1/2 armor) worn by the nobility in england in the 1500s, which provided much better arm protection.
I had more or less thought of an AV of 4 for the arms and upper legs and 5 or 6 for the breast plate. They also came with a gorget some times. I had thought to make the whole thing a -1 CP, making it more or less a "breast plate plus mail" eqivalent. I'd probably give thrusts as +1 damage vs the arms, since the slates really only protect against swings.
Thanks..NT
On 1/27/2004 at 9:08pm, Salamander wrote:
RE: Concering item quality..
toli wrote: Yes it is a sort of half or 3/4 harness. It was much cheaper than demilance armor (say real 3/4 or 1/2 armor) worn by the nobility in england in the 1500s, which provided much better arm protection.
I had more or less thought of an AV of 4 for the arms and upper legs and 5 or 6 for the breast plate. They also came with a gorget some times. I had thought to make the whole thing a -1 CP, making it more or less a "breast plate plus mail" eqivalent. I'd probably give thrusts as +1 damage vs the arms, since the slates really only protect against swings.
Thanks..NT
I would think AV 4 for the arms is a good number. For the body I would say plan on an AV of 5 seeing as how it is munition grade. Just to reflect the poorer heat treat and handling of the work done during manufacture. A -1 CP is a good consideration in my opinion, as the arms don't seem to be slowed down too much by something like that. I think that maybe just rolling a d10 (even hits armour, odd hits bare skin) or even just a smart player target selection would do the trick when trying to determine where the blow lands regarding the arms. I would avoid the whole +1 thrust damage v. the arms thing though.
On 1/27/2004 at 10:01pm, toli wrote:
RE: Concering item quality..
Salamander wrote:toli wrote: I would avoid the whole +1 thrust damage v. the arms thing though.
Yeh. You're probably right. The lower AV really accounts for less protection any way...