I first wanted to post this on rpg.net, but I didn't want to start a possible "We hate\love d20 and we want to kill you for what you've done"-thread, so...

If I'm in the wrong part of the forum with this thread, it would be nice of the admins to move the thread, thank you. (Sometimes Im not quite sure which part a thrad belongs...)

For Nacht, my "always in progress" homebrew game, I plan to support many different rule systems. One will also be d20, a system which don't like much and which I did choose mainly because of its popularity. Also it would be nice to try and turn a system thats suboptimal for the game I'm writing into something that works for me. (It's a personal challenge. :D )

Now the last nights, I tried to sumn up the things that I wanted to change and think about ways to do that. It was hard not to get sucked into a "Gosh, this will never work, I'd have to change everything!!!" mode of thinking, but I made it. (At least on the second night.)

I started with throwing out the things that I didn't want to have in my game. Classes went first ("Nacht" is written with a skill-based ystem in mind and it would be too much work to invent new classes or change the old ones.), levels followed pretty soon, and the problems started. In d20, the only real way of comparing experience and competence is the level-mechanic. It limits the skills, the saves, the feats etc. As the numbers are pretty non-descript ("So you got a +2 in riding, does that mean you're good?"), the levels served as a good way to compare numbers. (So the limit for your level is 6 and you have a 5, so you're quite good for your level.") But without levels (and classes) I needed a way to determine and compare competence.

In most game, this is done by giving an average (Like a skill of 3 in Shadowrun. for ex.), something that (As far as I know but I may be wrong) is seemingly nonexistant in D&D\d20. (I took a skill level of 8 as maximum during character creation, but playtest will have to determine the exact numbers.)

The result, after some more hours of thinking and writing was something that doesn't resemble d20 at all, but that could work quite nice for my game:

No levels and classes.

Saves may either be turned into skills or ditched as a whole.

BAB is turned into Combat skills like "Swords", "Bows" etc.

The skill list was heavily changed, with some new skills added and many skills fused together (like Spot, Listen and Search becoming "Awareness").

Feats were thrown out completly. Some will be turned into combat manouvers, and some special tricks of the classes will be used in my magic systems. (Works a bit like the charms in "Underworld", but as gifts, tricks or talents.)

First I wanted to ditch HP's too and use some sort od damage save combined with a damage ladder a la Vampire or Shadowrun, but it became too complicated to balance things, so I just went with "Everyone gets 15+Con modifier HP's".
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So, after all these changes, I have a nice rules-light system sans classes or levels and an answer to the question "What do I have to change so that d20 isn't d20 any more?": Just throw out classes, feats, saves and, especially, levels.

So, what do you think? Should I use something like that or should I just forget the "support" of d20? Any comments to the systems.

M

based on the information you provide it's hard to tell. Anyway, your modifikation doesn't sound like d20 anymore to me, so it seems there really isn't any d20 support for Nacht/Night. In that case, you might add your former-d20 system just to make those players feel a little more at home, but if it's too much trouble to write it up properly, you might as well ignore d20. Or offer you former-d20 separately (AFAIK there are a number of conversions, for instance GURPS to d20, your system may or may not add to that.)
I doubt I was able to help, especially since I'm not sure what the actual question is. Maybe, if you rephrased it ...

Since you've pretty much scrapped everything that makes D20 stand out as D20. I'd say that you might as well scrap any notion that you had of making your game compatible with it.

To me if I see a system that says it's compatible with another system. That means I should be able to take a character out of the other system and drop it into this one. Perhaps some modifications like changing the scaling of attributes or something. But when you pretty much drop him in and left with only a name and stats, that to me isn't really a compatible system anymore.

What you're trying to do really reminded me of an existing project that's out there http://members.lycos.co.uk/merlinsworkshop/front.htm, called Classically Modern. YMMV. I found it to look cumbersome, and never tried it myself.

I think you have arrived at what I coin as "5th Edition DnD" which is basically GURPS using a d20 instead of 3d6 :-) ...

Umberhulk wrote: I think you have arrived at what I coin as "5th Edition DnD" which is basically GURPS using a d20 instead of 3d6 :-) ...

Kryyst wrote: Since you've pretty much scrapped everything that makes D20 stand out as D20. I'd say that you might as well scrap any notion that you had of making your game compatible with it. ...

The advantage for using d20 is that there is so much existing stuff out there to draw from and a large player base with familiarity to the rules. If the goal is to have a bridge system, you really should be able to easily convert existing d20 stats into Natch stats, since like 90% of roleplaying publications are d20 of some variety.

Umberhulk wrote: The advantage for using d20 is that there is so much existing stuff out there to draw from and a large player base with familiarity to the rules. If the goal is to have a bridge system, you really should be able to easily convert existing d20 stats into Natch stats, since like 90% of roleplaying publications are d20 of some variety.

Minx wrote: No levels and classes.

Saves may either be turned into skills or ditched as a whole.

BAB is turned into Combat skills like "Swords", "Bows" etc.

The skill list was heavily changed, with some new skills added and many skills fused together (like Spot, Listen and Search becoming "Awareness").

Feats were thrown out completly. Some will be turned into combat manouvers, and some special tricks of the classes will be used in my magic systems. (Works a bit like the charms in "Underworld", but as gifts, tricks or talents.)

First I wanted to ditch HP's too and use some sort od damage save combined with a damage ladder a la Vampire or Shadowrun, but it became too complicated to balance things, so I just went with "Everyone gets 15+Con modifier HP's".

(Kryyst) ...To me if I see a system that says it's compatible with another system. That means I should be able to take a character out of the other system and drop it into this one....

timfire wrote:

Minx wrote: No levels and classes.

(Kryyst) ...To me if I see a system that says it's compatible with another system. That means I should be able to take a character out of the other system and drop it into this one....

I don't think the purpose of d20 is create some sort of universal system in the way that GURPS is. I think the purpose is to create a general body of rules that players are familiar with, so they can switch from one game to the next without having to learn a new system. For example, I think the purpose is to be able to play DnD THEN SWITCH TO Modern THEN SWITCH TO d20 BESM (why did they update, their old rules were just fine?) THEN SWITCH TO Star Wars. I don't think the purpose is to take a DnD character and put them in Modern, or take a d20 BESM character and put them in Star Wars.

I agree. But the way the idea was presented was a fantasy game that was compatible with D20...so in that case I as a consumer/DM would expect to be able to drop in my current characters with little to no needed change. Not just you get to keep your name and pretty much scrap everything else.

So, after I dumped my system (Well, put it away for possible future use as some nice and small system.) it would interest me if there are interesting takes on the d20 system out there that could do it for me. I'm not a d20 crack, but I know some variants that exist. (Mainly Anime d20, the Grim 'n Gritty rules and some other things, which I can't remember clearly enough to put a name to them.)

I'd be very gratefull for some of the systems out there and some short description of the changes. Would be nice, thank you. :)

M

I'm not totally up on all the d20 stuff that's out there, but I know a few.

Ken Hood (the Grim 'N Gritty guy), also made a no HP system, though I don't know how it works. He also made a martial arts system that introduces specific manuvers that act like mini-feats. He also made a skill & Feat based psionic system. The GnG, martial arts and psionics systems were created for a Dune-eque scifi setting of his. I think he's in the process of publishing it.

Monte Cook's variant player's handbook Arcana Unearthed has a magic system that's still memory-based, but has flexible rules for modifying the effects of the spells. He also has a few minor tweaks as well.

Mutants and Masterminds (an OGL game) has some sort of alternative damage system that has some sort of "damage save" feature. I've never played the game.

D20 Modern has a few tweaks to the class system. They introduced a "profession" feature that provides pernament class skills. Also has a few other tweaks.

Every d20 game that comes out seems to have a few tweaks in it, but the point-based BESM and Ken Hood's ideas are the most radical I've seen.

I first couldn't believe it, but I've found a d20 system that not only sounds fun, but one that could actually fit into my game!!!

You can find it here.

Have a look!

M

Mutants & Masterminds (mentioned earlier) throws out Classes and Races, uses Level only as a measure (and limit) of character power and competence (skill bonus maximums, power point maximums, etc), drops hit points in favour of a Damage save rule (which lets it discard all the funky dice, except for the d20 itself), and adds a system for super powers and power points for character construction.

The result is a cool game system which is probably easier for DnDers to move to than Champions (whether the Hero or the Fuzion variants) or BESM. But it ain't D&D.

I think that unless you want to make your "fixed" d20 your primary system, it's not worth building just to offer a "bridge" system for DnDers, like what was done with Silver Age Sentinels d20 or Godlike's d20 version. If it's not a D&D variant, it doesn't need to be d20.

Dotan Dimet wrote: Mutants & Masterminds (mentioned earlier) throws out Classes and Races, uses Level only as a measure (and limit) of character power and competence (skill bonus maximums, power point maximums, etc), drops hit points in favour of a Damage save rule (which lets it discard all the funky dice, except for the d20 itself), and adds a system for super powers and power points for character construction.

The result is a cool game system which is probably easier for DnDers to move to than Champions (whether the Hero or the Fuzion variants) or BESM. But it ain't D&D.

I think that unless you want to make your "fixed" d20 your primary system, it's not worth building just to offer a "bridge" system for DnDers, like what was done with Silver Age Sentinels d20 or Godlike's d20 version. If it's not a D&D variant, it doesn't need to be d20.

Suggestions on what systems I could-should support are very appreciated. :D

M

GURPS and HERO would probably be good ones for you throw some support in for. They are both fairly flexible systems with a good amount of following and support that could easily have conversion information in the back as all you would need to do is show rules for whatever powers or abilities makes your setting unique.

hmmm...

Well, the setting actually started a background for a planned BESM setting, but I soon learned that things like BESM form the setting in a way that I want to circumvent. Maybe it was just me, but as soon as I started to think about the setting and how things in it could work in the system, I always got the feeling that the style of play and campaign creation I had in mind would be impossible in a power-based point-buy system.
Its hard to describe...

My current plan is to use "The Window" with some rules added. The character creation consist of the freeform selection of skills, skill levels and Attribute level of TW (Although the group and or the GM is free ti limit the coice) and some additional choices I added. These choices are the tricky part. One part is the group the character belongs to (Which race? Is he a member of one of the ruling houses? ) and these things add non-numerical advantages like powers. Another part is the question what "gift/s" the character should have. These gifts, which may be inheritet powers, learned tricks or whatever, are an important part of the character. While everything I just described could be made with a powers-based point-buy system like HERO, BESM or GURPS, it wouldn´t make any sense, as the whole point of those games, the purchasable, cost-balanced powers, wouldn´t (Or at least shouldn´t) be used because it would change the setting into something defenitly not inteted or wanted. (At least by me.)

While I could use the central mechanik (Like the stat- and skill-system of BESM), the main point of the system would be lost. It would be like trying to play "Underworld" (Nope, not the movie) with BESM: While it could surely work, it would make some integral parts of the game unnecessary and therefore worthless. (In this case the charms, which are IMO integral to the setting.)

Hmmm...

I think I will include an article about games like BESM, Gurps or Hero, saying something like: "IMO, its quite possible to use Gurps (Or whatever) to play Nacht, but only if you just use the part of the system concerned with the basics (Atttributes, skills, how to make a check...) and ditch at least 60% of the powers. (Maybe leaving some mundane powers like "Fame".)

Thank you for your post, it certainly made me think hard, trying to express my concerns and reasons. (Which is a good thing most of the time ;)

M

I thought about it a little and I came up with a number of systems Nacht could be playable with and which I will probably "support". (Meaning I will include a "How to play Nacht with XXX"-passage.):

-The fixed-number "Storyteller" system of Exalted
-Kathanaksaya and some pool variants (The puddle maybe), which would be fairly easy
-d02, which should be pretty easy too (Even though I should include some rules to make it a bit more gritty) ;D
-Underworld
-The d20 Lite system mentioned above
-Otherkind could be very interesting...
-maybe Shadowrun

Hmmm, comments, more ideas?

M

Sounds similar in a lot of way (though not all) to what I wrote up for The Live System.

Link to www.postmort.demon.co.uk for a bit more info.

Basically, classless,levelless d20 wit spells shifted into more general feats.

Minx, I can understand your difficulty with the d20 system and the classes it provides. If you're still wanting to try, I'd suggest looking at the recently published Unearthed Arcana.

In that tome, you will find a description of how to play with Generic classes (Warrior, Expert, and Spellcaster I believe) and still integrate skills and feats along with class abilities. This may be generic enough for your venture!

Hope this helps!

Faithfully Yours,

Aman the Rejected

Thanks Aman, I´ve already heard of UA and I will take a look at it, if one of my D&D-addicted friends will buy it. (I wouldn´t buy it myself.)

But you´re right, it really looks interesting.
(Personally, the little powergamer in me wants to take a look at the Gestalt classes. ;) )

M