Inspired by parts of Sorcerer & Sword, as well as discussions in the TRoS forum, I've been wondering about treating weaponry in fantasy RPGs strictly through the traits of the weapon - weapons would get bonus dice for what they were good at, and perhaps penalty dice for what they were bad at.

Weapon traits would be determined by (a) historical accuracy and (b) fantasy literature genre conventions. An example of (a): weren't warhammers and maces were especially useful against heavy armor? If so they would get bonus dice there. An example of (b) (from S&S): daggers thrown from surprise get a big bonus, being especially lethal in fantasy stories.

So - questions:

1) Are there factors besides (a) and (b) that ought to be taken into account in making such a list?

2) Is there a game which has already taken this approach that I should be buying or downloading for this, rather than engaging the groupmind?

3) Anyone want to help me make such a list? There are several people on these forums who have forgotten more about medieval weaponry than I will ever know. What would bonuses and penalties be for the weapons below? What about other weapons? Pick one or many or general categories to discuss...

I figure this is a reasonable post for RPG theory because there are lots of fantasy games out there for which such a list might be useful, even if they don't use a trait/die pool resolution system. For example you could use them for +/- on rolls if you wanted more complexity in a 'roll to hit' type RPG. So there might be some general interest here. If I'm wrong, sorry for the mistake in advance.

Axe (1h)
Bastard Sword
Bow
Club
Composite Bow
Dagger
Flail (1h)
Greatspear
Greatsword
Halberd
Heavy Crossbow
Javelin
Lance
Light Crossbow
Longbow
Mace
Net
Pick (1h, 2h)
Pole Axe
Quarterstaff
Rapier
Scimitar
Sling
Spear (1h)
Sword
Trident
Two-Handed Axe
various pole arms
War Maul
Warhammer
Whip

Hi Sean,

I'm not sure I quite get it ...

1. Are you looking for something like an extension of the tables in the 1979 D&D Player's Handbook, which gave weapons plusses and minuses based on what armor they were opposed by?

There are lots of games which extend that idea, from early RuneQuest's various "20% of current %" impales and bashes, to RoleMaster's complicated tables. So I figure that must not be quite what you mean.

2. Are you looking for situational modifiers in terms of available space, ease of use, and range of extension? As you know, both TROS and Sorcerer have distinct ways of bringing this issue into play all the time. The Burning Wheel might be a good resource too, for a fairly TROS-like approach toward stance, range-of-conflict at the moment, and reach.

3. Or?

Best,
Ron

Actually, this is sort of under the general rubric of 'description driving game mechanics'-type stuff, exemplified for me by Heroquest chargen.

In a lot of games, you've got, say, a mace, and that does a certain amount of damage, or whatever, and has certain modifiers against different 'armor classes', etc..

What I'm thinking of is more like the situation in Sorcerer, where your combat rolls are driven by a statistic (there usually Stamina, sometimes Cover, occasionally something else). But whereas in Sorcerer weapon damage converts to an interpretation of your victories, what I'm thinking of is more like: weapons good at x get a 1 or 2 die bonus, weapons bad at x get a one or two die penalty.

e.g.:

Warhammer: +1 die against heavily armored foes....

Spear: +2 dice when set against charge, -1 in close quarters...

Dagger: +2 dice when thrown from concealment, -1 dice in HTH combat generally

etc. But the actual mechanics aren't as important to me as what a given weapon 'means', where that meaning is determined both by historical accuracy and by fantasy fiction genre conventions.

In other words, I want to interpret weapons, and possibly other equipment, as floating 'traits' for the characters who possess them.

So there is an aspect to this reminiscent of the old AD&D 'weapon vs. armor class' tables, but pretty different in feel, and with no particular desire for the kind of ad hoc completeness those tables aspired to. What I'm really interested in is the kind of advantages and disadvantages that any given weapon represents. But then too regardless of what I want this for it seems as though it would be the kind of thing that you could use in a lot of fantasy gaming, an answer to the question 'what is a given weapon good and bad at'. For example, if you wanted to add the complexity to a 3e game that the old tables did to 1e (why is a good question here, but OK), you could use these modifiers as situational plusses and minuses instead. That's not what I want it for, but it seemed to me that the question had a certain amount of general interest for that reason.

I had a similar idea for modern weapons recently. The purpose was to get rid of designing weapons and balancing them carefully, so as not to end up with one best weapon everybody with some sense will want to use (which usually happens anyway). Rather, I wanted to give players the freedom to have the gun they want. The idea was, much like Calithena's, to have weapons with knacks/aspects/feats, like the advantages and disadvantages you can take for your character.
I came up with the following:
Advantages:
Range: 1point /10 metres
clip size: 1 point per bullet beyond six
large round: +3 per additional point of damage

Disadvantages:
lack of precision: 1 point per unit
susceptile: +3 per die result on rolling which the weapon jams.

I ran into problems when considering reloading, as that interacts with clip size.
Obviously these are just a few quick notes I took, and the whole thing still needs lots of work. It won't even do as a decent first step, but as an example of the idea it might suffice.

Hey Sean. Check this out: http://www.septemberquestion.org/lumpley/guns.html. It's a weapon list (guns and cars and stuff) that works, I think, exactly the way you're suggesting. I made it a few years ago.

It shouldn't be too hard to treat a fantasy armory the same way.

-Vincent

Hello,

To clarify the Sorcerer situation, especially in pulp-ish fantasy play, weapons are very highly modified for the immediate situation.

A dagger in curtain-hung, dark, close quarters is a savagely deadly weapon, far more so than a mace. The situation is reversed when fighting from horseback on an open field. Since these modifiers work both in terms of bonus dice and in terms of which damage category is being used, and all the usual bonus-dice modifiers apply as well, that's a pretty wide range of application.

Sean, are you looking mainly for a more-organized, less "figure it out moron" presentation of these principles? Or different principles altogether? I'm getting the idea it's the former; am I right?

Best,
Ron

Ron, you got it - mostly the former. The kind of thing you could write up a quick weapon table for. Not exhaustive, though. One could do it MLwM style:

Dagger:
-Good when thrown suddenly from surprise, except against protagonists
-Bad when used in melee combat, except against foes using clubs, daggers, or fists

Sword:
- Good in single combat, except against heavily armored foes
- Bad if you're not born to the upper classes, unless you're a trained warrior

etc.

Mostly I'm looking for the stereotypical historical and/or genre features of any given weapon so that I could run them like floating traits. Sorcerer & Sword pulp fantasy games would be a possibly good application of such a chart, and I have some others in mind as well.

Vincent, your gun examples would be another perfectly fine format for the same thing, and exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.

When I read especially Jake's stuff, but lots of people here's stuff, on medieval armaments, I think (a) damn, I wish I knew all that and (b) maybe if you were using a description-driven combat system you could just have traits associated with the weapons based on their most common types of employment in history and fantasy fiction. Nothing hairy and complicated, just a codification of the basic flavor and tactical elements that any particular weapon might represent.

It sounds like designing a (relatively) gritty combat system based on master components for a game of Universalis. As each combat is resolved through the Complication mechanism, dice are drawn on for those various special rules as they apply to the current situation.

Sounds like a fun experiment, at the least.

Chris

I can't think of a system that had an extensive list of weapon traits using this approach, although I feel I've seen some early systems that abandoned the statted-out damage and to-hit bonuses by armor type that's typical of most gritty combat systems. I was sort of thinking of this approach to weapons when I wrote Empedocles: Daemons of Strife and Love, which first appeared as my submission for the Iron Game Chef Simulationist competition here on the Forge. edged weapons would have a Sharp trait that subtracts a die from your rolls (since in that system more dice = more difficulty.) however, the reason why I liked that approach was because it doesn't require weapons to be statted out in advance and can be easily expanded for whatever new exotic weapons you dream up; this is why I never created a large list of weapon traits.

Calithena, if your still interested I would like to contribute to a list here also because I need something similar for my game.

Just give me the word and we can get started.

Cheers.

OK, Here is a start. Please anyone add/modify this list and keep posting. Weapons can be viewed categorically too. Should we do this? The following weapons are of the same “family”:

CLUB
Description: Clubs can be made of stone, long, heavy animal bones or thick lengths of wood taken from trees, bushes or plants. Some have molten lead poured into a hole at the top of the club, leather strips on the handle to improve grip, or a loop for the user’s wrist.
- Good for breaking through hard objects; barrels, doors, helmets, armour, skulls.
- Devastating in combat but
- Very slow to wield. They must be swung in a large arc for the momentum to deliver the weight for serious damage.
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.

MACE
Maces are simply metal clubs which can be fashioned to have a weighted spiked or pointed end.
- Great for battering an enemies shield or armour.
- Even greater damage potential when swung from a height (such as horseback) for more momentum.
- Like the club in weight but even heavier and slower to wield.
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.
- The sheer weight could hinder movement and would need to be dropped to seriously flee a fight.
- It may get stuck in armour.
-

WARHAMMER
The war hammer was like an ordinary hammer, but had only one claw, a kind of spiked pick. The shaft or handle of a war hammer was up to a metre in length.
- A soldier could reach out from his saddle to strike his enemy with the sharp claw and puncture his enemy’s metal helmet. This kind of blow to the head could be fatal, killing instantly.
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.
- Like the club in weight but even heavier and slower to wield.
- The sheer weight could hinder movement and would need to be dropped to seriously flee a fight.
- It may get stuck in armour.

FLAIL
The flail is a mixture of mace and club. Between one and three lengths of chain were fixed to one end of a thick metal stick. Weighted spikes were attached to the end of each length of chain. When the flail was used, the chains whipped through the air, and struck the enemy in several places at once. An example of a flail is a morning star.
- Can strike multiple areas of the opponent
- If not used with caution it can cause injury to the possessor.
- It may get stuck in armour or the chains may wrap around an object

Notes about blunt instruments:

If short-ish, weighted away from the user, and (usually) flexible, you can get extra power from the wrist (e.g. blackjacks, etc.). This works best at close range. A well-handled cosh can break bones or even kill surprisingly easily.

The longer the weapon, the more power you can get from leverage. Thus a staff can be a brutal weapon in the hands of a small person who knows what he's doing with it, because instead of swinging it like a baseball bat you more or less pull on one end and push in the middle, and the far end whips out at fantastic speed. mv^2, after all.

Similarly, the less restricted you are about which end to hold, the quicker the weapon can be. A short-stick can be blindingly fast, but a heavy baseball bat tends to be slow to recover. It's all a question of whether you have to "muscle" the weapon, and how heavily weighted it is away from you.

Advantage of blunt instruments: they don't get inconveniently hung up in people, animals, trees, etc. except under very unusual circumstances.

Disadvantage of inflexible blunt instruments: go out and hit a tree really, really hard with a baseball bat and see how your hands feel.

Advantage of blunt instruments: very difficult to make illegal, because they're often just lying around, or readily accessible.

Chris Lehrich

Man, this list could be massive! Thanks for adding. I think it would be a good idea to categorize. Here is what we have so far:

BLUNT WEAPONS

Examples:
Cudgel, bastinado, bat, baton, billy, billy club, birch, blackjack, bludgeon, cane, club, cosh, conk buster, convincer, ferule, hammer, hickory, mace, mallet, nightstick, paddle, persuader, quarterstaff, rod, rosewood, sap, shill, shillelagh, spontoon, staff, stick, swatter, switch, truncheon, wand.

Description:
If short-ish, weighted away from the user, and (usually) flexible, you can get extra power from the wrist (e.g. blackjacks, etc.). This works best at close range. A well-handled cosh can break bones or even kill surprisingly easily. The longer the weapon, the more power you can get from leverage. Thus a staff can be a brutal weapon in the hands of a small person who knows what he's doing with it, because instead of swinging it like a baseball bat you more or less pull on one end and push in the middle, and the far end whips out at fantastic speed. mv^2, after all. Similarly, the less restricted you are about which end to hold, the quicker the weapon can be. A short-stick can be blindingly fast, but a heavy baseball bat tends to be slow to recover. It's all a question of whether you have to "muscle" the weapon, and how heavily weighted it is away from you.

Advantages:
- They don't get inconveniently hung up in people, animals, trees, etc. except under very unusual circumstances.
- Very difficult to make illegal, because they're often just lying around, or readily accessible.

Disadvantages:
- Go out and hit a tree really, really hard with a baseball bat and see how your hands feel.

Detailed examples of Blunt Weapons:

CLUBS

Description: Clubs can be made of stone, long, heavy animal bones or thick lengths of wood taken from trees, bushes or plants. Some have molten lead poured into a hole at the top of the club, leather strips on the handle to improve grip, or a loop for the user’s wrist.

- Good for breaking through hard objects; barrels, doors, helmets, armour, skulls.
- Devastating in combat but
- Very slow to wield. They must be swung in a large arc for the momentum to deliver the weight for serious damage.
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.

Other stuff uncategorized yet:

MACE
Maces are simply metal clubs which can be fashioned to have a weighted spiked or pointed end.
- Great for battering an enemies shield or armour.
- Even greater damage potential when swung from a height (such as horseback) for more momentum.
- Like the club in weight but even heavier and slower to wield.
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.
- The sheer weight could hinder movement and would need to be dropped to seriously flee a fight.
- It may get stuck in armour.

WARHAMMER
The war hammer was like an ordinary hammer, but had only one claw, a kind of spiked pick. The shaft or handle of a war hammer was up to a metre in length.
- A soldier could reach out from his saddle to strike his enemy with the sharp claw and puncture his enemy’s metal helmet. This kind of blow to the head could be fatal, killing instantly.
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.
- Like the club in weight but even heavier and slower to wield.
- The sheer weight could hinder movement and would need to be dropped to seriously flee a fight.
- It may get stuck in armour.

FLAIL
The flail is a mixture of mace and club. Between one and three lengths of chain were fixed to one end of a thick metal stick. Weighted spikes were attached to the end of each length of chain. When the flail was used, the chains whipped through the air, and struck the enemy in several places at once. An example of a flail is a morning star.
- Can strike multiple areas of the opponent
- If not used with caution it can cause injury to the possessor.
- It may get stuck in armour or the chains may wrap around an object

DAGGERS AND KNIVES

Small, light and easy to carry, daggers and knives are hand held weapons that are excellent for concealment and useful in hand-to-hand fighting or for throwing. The knife is sharp on one edge only and may have a relatively blunt point. The knife is used as an everyday tool as well as being a weapon. The dagger is used exclusively for combat. The dagger is double-edged, tapering to a sharp point, and may also have a guard between the handle and blade to protect the user’s hand. Daggers can be made from bone, bronze, iron or steel. Most daggers are works of art with beautiful inlays and precious or semi-precious metals and jewels set in the handles. Knuckle dusters could also be incorporated into the handle.

Advantages:
- Easily concealed for covert operations.
- Handy for making breakfast with.
- Good when thrown suddenly from surprise, except against protagonists.
- Can be thrown as well as used in melee combat.
- Fast loading and throwing time – about 15 per minute.

Disadvantages:
- Poor reach and small blade make it fairly lousy for hand to hand combat except against foes using clubs, daggers, or fists.
- Can only be thrown about 25 metres.

Lorenzo Rubbo-Ferraro wrote: DAGGERS AND KNIVES

Small, light and easy to carry, daggers and knives are hand held weapons that are excellent for concealment and useful in hand-to-hand fighting or for throwing. The knife is sharp on one edge only and may have a relatively blunt point. The knife is used as an everyday tool as well as being a weapon. The dagger is used exclusively for combat. The dagger is double-edged, tapering to a sharp point, and may also have a guard between the handle and blade to protect the user’s hand. Daggers can be made from bone, bronze, iron or steel. Most daggers are works of art with beautiful inlays and precious or semi-precious metals and jewels set in the handles. Knuckle dusters could also be incorporated into the handle.

Thanks Chris. Updated it here:

BLUNT WEAPONS

Examples:
Cudgel, bastinado, bat, baton, billy, billy club, birch, blackjack, bludgeon, cane, club, cosh, conk buster, convincer, ferule, hammer, hickory, mace, mallet, nightstick, paddle, persuader, quarterstaff, rod, rosewood, sap, shill, shillelagh, spontoon, staff, stick, swatter, switch, truncheon, wand.

Description:
If short-ish, weighted away from the user, and (usually) flexible, you can get extra power from the wrist (e.g. blackjacks, etc.). This works best at close range. A well-handled cosh can break bones or even kill surprisingly easily. The longer the weapon, the more power you can get from leverage. Thus a staff can be a brutal weapon in the hands of a small person who knows what he's doing with it, because instead of swinging it like a baseball bat you more or less pull on one end and push in the middle, and the far end whips out at fantastic speed. mv^2, after all. Similarly, the less restricted you are about which end to hold, the quicker the weapon can be. A short-stick can be blindingly fast, but a heavy baseball bat tends to be slow to recover. It's all a question of whether you have to "muscle" the weapon, and how heavily weighted it is away from you.

Advantages:
- They don't get inconveniently hung up in people, animals, trees, etc. except under very unusual circumstances.
- Very difficult to make illegal, because they're often just lying around, or readily accessible.

Disadvantages:
- Go out and hit a tree really, really hard with a baseball bat and see how your hands feel.

Detailed examples of Blunt Weapons:

CLUBS

Description: Clubs can be made of stone, long, heavy animal bones or thick lengths of wood taken from trees, bushes or plants. Some have molten lead poured into a hole at the top of the club, leather strips on the handle to improve grip, or a loop for the user’s wrist.

- Good for breaking through hard objects; barrels, doors, helmets, armour, skulls.
- Devastating in combat but
- Very slow to wield. They must be swung in a large arc for the momentum to deliver the weight for serious damage.
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.

Other stuff uncategorized yet:

MACE
Maces are simply metal clubs which can be fashioned to have a weighted spiked or pointed end.
- Great for battering an enemies shield or armour.
- Even greater damage potential when swung from a height (such as horseback) for more momentum.
- Like the club in weight but even heavier and slower to wield.
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.
- The sheer weight could hinder movement and would need to be dropped to seriously flee a fight.
- It may get stuck in armour.

WARHAMMER
The war hammer was like an ordinary hammer, but had only one claw, a kind of spiked pick. The shaft or handle of a war hammer was up to a metre in length.
- A soldier could reach out from his saddle to strike his enemy with the sharp claw and puncture his enemy’s metal helmet. This kind of blow to the head could be fatal, killing instantly.
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.
- Like the club in weight but even heavier and slower to wield.
- The sheer weight could hinder movement and would need to be dropped to seriously flee a fight.
- It may get stuck in armour.

FLAIL
The flail is a mixture of mace and club. Between one and three lengths of chain were fixed to one end of a thick metal stick. Weighted spikes were attached to the end of each length of chain. When the flail was used, the chains whipped through the air, and struck the enemy in several places at once. An example of a flail is a morning star.
- Can strike multiple areas of the opponent
- If not used with caution it can cause injury to the possessor.
- It may get stuck in armour or the chains may wrap around an object

DAGGERS AND KNIVES

Small, light and easy to carry, daggers and knives are hand held weapons that are excellent for concealment and useful in hand-to-hand fighting or for throwing. The knife is sharp on one edge only and may have a relatively blunt point. The knife is used as an everyday tool as well as being a weapon. The dagger is used usually only for combat. The dagger is double-edged, tapering to a sharp point, and may also have a guard between the handle and blade to protect the user’s hand. Daggers can be made from bone, bronze, iron or steel. Lots of daggers are quite straightforward affairs, nothing fancy. Some daggers are works of art with beautiful inlays and precious or semi-precious metals and jewels set in the handles. Many daggers have a dominant edge and a partial back-edge. Daggers serve very well as ordinary hand-tools, so long as you're used to them; this is especially true if there's at least a small section of the back-edge that isn't sharpened, so you can put your thumb on it without cutting yourself.. Knuckle dusters could also be incorporated into the handle.

Advantages:
- Easily concealed for covert operations.
- Handy for making breakfast with.
- Good when thrown suddenly from surprise, except against protagonists.
- Can be thrown as well as used in melee combat.
- Fast loading and throwing time – about 15 per minute.
- Excellent secondary weapon when your primary one is lost or broken.

Disadvantages:
- Poor reach and small blade make it fairly lousy for hand to hand combat except against foes using clubs, daggers, or fists.
- Can only be thrown about 25 metres.

Should we have the elaborate descriptions or keep it to simple point based lines? Sticking more to Calithena's original post should we just write down cliches/aphorisms?

There are probably a lot of resources for deatailed weapon descriptions; internet, library, GURPS supplements etc...

However I'm happy to continue as is. Any suggestions?

One nice resource is Stone's A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor. Palladium cribbed from this heavily when they did their little booklets on various types of weaponry.

As to what needs to be listed, that's Calithena's call. Somebody mentioned TRoS here -- how do they do it? (I admit, I haven't read it yet, sorry, sorry, I'm a weenie....)

Chris Lehrich

Wow, just checked out that book at Amazon! I wanttsss it. I neeedss it. My preciousss.

Ok, for sake of ease I am going to only write down weapon aphorisms as requested by Calithena. Let’s focus on the simple clichés that weapons possess. Here’s what to do so that I don’t have to keep maintaining the list:

1. Copy this entire post.
2. Add/change aphorisms.
3. Replace this introduction with a change log (e.g. added 2 dagger advantages, added new weapon: Sword etc.)

Ok?

CLUB
Advantages:
- Good for breaking through hard objects; barrels, doors, helmets, armour, skulls.
- Devastating in combat but
- Can be easily be made impromptu from stone, bones or branches.
Disadvantages:
- Very slow to wield. They must be swung in a large arc for the momentum to deliver the weight for serious damage.
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.

MACE
Advantages:
- Great for battering an enemies shield or armour.
- Even greater damage potential when swung from a height (such as horseback) for more momentum.
Disadvantages:
- Like the club in weight but even heavier and slower to wield.
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.
- The sheer weight could hinder movement and would need to be dropped to seriously flee a fight.
- It may get stuck in armour.

WARHAMMER
Advantages:
- A soldier could reach out from his saddle to strike his enemy with the sharp claw and puncture his enemy’s metal helmet. This kind of blow to the head could be fatal, killing instantly.
Disadvantages:
- The weapon relies on the users strength for effectiveness.
- Like the club in weight but even heavier and slower to wield.
- The sheer weight could hinder movement and would need to be dropped to seriously flee a fight.
- It may get stuck in armour.

FLAIL
Advantages:
- Can strike multiple areas of the opponent
Disadvantages:
- If not used with caution it can swing back and cause injury to the possessor.
- It may get stuck in armour or the chains may wrap around an object

DAGGERS AND KNIVES
Advantages:
- Small, light and easy to carry
- Excellent for concealment in covert operations.
- Useful in hand-to-hand fighting or for throwing.
- Knuckle dusters could also be incorporated into the handle.
- Handy for making breakfast with or carving your initials in a tree.
- Good when thrown suddenly from surprise, except against protagonists.
- Fast loading and throwing time – about 15 per minute.
- Excellent secondary weapon when your primary one is lost or broken.
Disadvantages:
- Poor reach and small blade make it fairly lousy for hand to hand combat except against foes using clubs, daggers, or fists.
- Can only be thrown about 25 metres.

PIKES AND HALBERDS
Advantages:
- Severe deterent for horses.
- Can be used to pull opponents from their horses.
- Great power from leverage can be acheived because of the length.
Disadvantages:
- Difficult to use in close quarter combat.
- Very Encumbersome.