It has been discussed in the past, and I know that Ron Edwards ran a game using it, but there has yet to be a true, widely-available conversion of the Planescape setting to the HeroQuest rule set.

The purpose of this thread is to construct a conversion of the setting with a secondary purpose of integrating the various genre tropes, as discussed in previous threads, of both Planescape and HeroQuest.

The HeroQuest tropes have been established, by Brand Robins as being:

"1. Myth Defines: This can be either the Sim “myth as background” or the Nar “myth as premise” – but in either case it is Mythology, not history or politics or even geography, that defines the world on the deepest level.

2. Community is Central: This ties in with mythology, as myths are communal events, but also goes farther. Everyone is from somewhere, and the place you are from determines a lot about you. This includes many of the ‘monsters’ of HeroQuest – who have communities and myths of their own that make them understandable and “human” but whom still are inherently opposed to humanity. This is the “Us vs. Them.”

3. Values are in Conflict: This is the part where you have to decide who “Us” and “Them” is, what that means, and what you’re willing to do about it. Big decisions in Glorantha are always about the clash between values and passions, either on the individual or global level. Old ways should conflict with new ways, their ways with our ways, and so on. Wars in Glorantha aren’t just about controlling land – they’re about belief and value systems.

4. Power Has a Price: It is possible for a human in Glorantha to become a god, or at least a demi-god if they gain their power from myths and communities. However, this power always has a price – both to you and to the world. From the Red Moon losing her humanity and changing the whole world in ways that create chaos, to Herrek becoming renegade and outcast, there are always ways to gain power, but never a way to do it without a price.

5. Ambiguous References: HeroQuest talks about this in reference to character generation, but I think it works for the world as a whole and for building games in the world. What is the Knight of Ghosts and Shadows, the Sacred Thread, the City of the Elephant, or Little Speaker of the Bush Voice? They’re ambiguous references, things that give a mythic feel without being tied to a canon point (and so this could be a corollary to #1). When they come up in the game they can be filled in (by GM or player, depending on narrative rights in your game), left dark, or expanded upon as needed. I honestly think a lot of sticky points in Gloranthan canon have become issues because they were started/intended as ambiguous references that people out of game tried to nail down into specific setting details.

6. Greg can screw it, so can you: Anyone trying to stick to canon to closely will eventually get Gregged. So either be ready to change your canon, keep it subjective, or stick to themes rather than details or metaphysics.
"

Next up is defining the conventions that define Planescape as a setting.

I thought that the point of going to a new setting was to adopt it's genre and tropes. I mean, yes, the system will carry some of that encoded, but I've found that where the settings do not match, you have to make changes. I'm talking magic mostly here, and related metaphysics.

Or are you just tyring to determine what does match already between genres? So you know where you'll need to make your alterations?

Mike

I'm sensing a bit of confusion in these threads between the HeroQuest tropes (i.e. what makes a HQ game fun to play) and the Gloranthan ones (what is distinctive about Glorantha compared to other gameworlds).

Certainly 'Greg can screw it' is not a rule of Planescape.

soru

Mike Holmes wrote:
Or are you just tyring to determine what does match already between genres? So you know where you'll need to make your alterations?

Mike

soru wrote: I'm sensing a bit of confusion in these threads between the HeroQuest tropes (i.e. what makes a HQ game fun to play) and the Gloranthan ones (what is distinctive about Glorantha compared to other gameworlds).

Certainly 'Greg can screw it' is not a rule of Planescape.

soru

doubtofbuddha wrote:
What would you consider to be HeroQuest tropes as distinguished from Gloranthan ones?

doubtofbuddha wrote: What would you consider to be HeroQuest tropes as distinguished from Gloranthan ones?

Haha, well we already discussed this didn't we?

Of course I want to see the revised Midnight document. ;)

I agree largely with what you posted about the tropes of HeroQuest.

As for relating them to Planescape, I think you can maintain the community focus while still maintaining interplanar travel. It seems that Planescape is focused much more around organizationl affiliation than cultural affiliation. While homeland affiliation is possible (ranging from the towns of the Outlands to the neighborhoods of Sigil to places like the Great Dismal Delve), it seems much more focused on around what sort of pantheon or god you worship or what faction you follow.

So I imagine if someone wanted to run a plane-hopping campaign it would help to have some sort of group organizational or homeland tie to bring the PCs together. For example having to deal with how their beliefs as members of the Athar (for example) are dealt with when encountering all of the various divinely-inspired wonders of the Plane or whether the values as Avandorians hold up when they deal with societies from the Outlands or even Gehenna. How do their beliefs liberty hold up in the face of the crushing brutality of most of Gehenna's inhabitants?

One of the major issues that I believe might arise as a result of the conversion of Planescape to HeroQuest is that of alignment.
Obviously alignment, which was a very important part of D&D Planescape, is far less relevant in HeroQuest, requiring some other sort of explanation of what holds the planes together the way they are.

doubtofbuddha wrote: I agree largely with what you posted about the tropes of HeroQuest.

doubtofbuddha wrote: As for relating them to Planescape, I think you can maintain the community focus while still maintaining interplanar travel. It seems that Planescape is focused much more around organizationl affiliation than cultural affiliation. While homeland affiliation is possible (ranging from the towns of the Outlands to the neighborhoods of Sigil to places like the Great Dismal Delve), it seems much more focused on around what sort of pantheon or god you worship or what faction you follow.

doubtofbuddha wrote: So I imagine if someone wanted to run a plane-hopping campaign it would help to have some sort of group organizational or homeland tie to bring the PCs together. For example having to deal with how their beliefs as members of the Athar (for example) are dealt with when encountering all of the various divinely-inspired wonders of the Plane or whether the values as Avandorians hold up when they deal with societies from the Outlands or even Gehenna. How do their beliefs liberty hold up in the face of the crushing brutality of most of Gehenna's inhabitants?

doubtofbuddha wrote: One of the major issues that I believe might arise as a result of the conversion of Planescape to HeroQuest is that of alignment. Obviously alignment, which was a very important part of D&D Planescape, is far less relevant in HeroQuest, requiring some other sort of explanation of what holds the planes together the way they are.

Scripty, sorry for the delayed response I have been sick and busy so I haven't been as active with well thought-out posting as I would like. Also I would like to thank my friend Rip van Wormer (Rasgon) for helping me out by discussing some of the Planescape tropes with me.

I looked over the Midnight document and will e-mail you my comments some time this week (or weekend)

These are what I beleive the Planescape tropes are:
1) Belief is Power
In Planescape Belief actually can have "physical" effects on the world. If you have enough people in a particular town begin to align themselves with the alignment of another plane then it will eventually shift and become part of that plane. If an individual gets enough worshippers then they can become a god and if a god loses all its worshippers it will eventually drift away to nothing.

This trope is the one that is easiest to align with the two tropes that you identified as being associated with HeroQuest. One technique that can be used to get the most out of both this aspect of Planescape and HeroQuest's tropes is to have play center around concepts that will require to get some sort of permanent change in the planes, whether that is a quest to become a god (which will like a large amount of worshippers) or the shifting of some portion of a plane from its current location to one that is more preferable to the PCs.

Obviously any sort of action like this will result in values in conflict as the entire set-up of the Great Wheel is about conflicting values. If you seek to shift a town from the Abyss to the Outlands than some oppositional force in the Abyss will want to prevent that from happening. Likewise if you try to become a god, someone else will want to either a) usurp the power you are building or b) prevent you from upsetting the balance between pantheons.

This can also be easily applied by making the PCs servitors to a philosophy (whether it is religious, one of the factions, or something else would of course be between the players and the Narrator). In recognition of the metaphysical nature of the multiverse all of the philosophies of the planes desire to prove the superiority of their particular vision by getting as many people as possible to believe what they believe, thus proving it to be true. (Sound familiar? ;))

2) Center of All
As the multiverse is an infinite thing then there is no center of the multiiverse. By the same token, anything can be seen as the center of the multiverse because of the fact that multiverse radiates infinitely out of it. This can be applied to mortal (PC) heroes easily by keeping the following idea in mind:
There is always going to be something out there that is bigger, badder, and more important than the PCs. Whether this is a god, a demon prince, or the Factol of their faction, it should always be obvious that the PCs aren't the most influential, the most important, or the most powerful beings out there. The Planes are HUGE and there is always something out there that the PCs don't know about, secrets that are impossible to find, and mysteries that can't be solved. By the same token the characters are the center of the multiverse in one perspective. They may not be able to grind the Blood War (the big war between fiends) to a halt or bring down the Olympian pantheon, but they could save a Gatetown from being sucked over into the Abyss or save a nation from the curse of the Fates. The multiverse is bigged than the PCs but that doesn't mean they can't make a difference if they keep to an appropriate perspective.

3) Rule of Threes
Opposing forces always include a third force, a balance. For every unambigous extreme there is a third, ambigious balance and for every amibgous balance there is two unambigous extremes.
This can be implemented by making it so that for each major NPC you bring in you should bring in two more, each representing an aspect of the overall campaign theme or premise. Two should represent opposition with a third pulling things off into an entirely different directions. For example you could have a holy knight of Mount Celestia and a pit fiend of Baator and then some sort of third force such as a modron, elemental, rilmini, or even a Far Realm entity. The PCs not only have to deal with the "villian" but also the plans of the other two. Synthesis could be the key to their dilemna or one of the extremes could.


4) Unity of Rings
Every ending is a beginning and every beginning is an end and things come back to bite you in the ass. This can be emphasized by having is to it seems that, on a larger scale, the same events happen over and over again. The struggle between kings, the rise and fall of gods, love affairs between eladrin princes. Events create themselves and propogate over and over again creating cycles of opression and death but also love and peace. The entire Outer Planar cosmology is based on a ring and it is easier to find portals to the next plane in the ring. Even Sigil is a ring city at the center of the above-mentioned ring of planes.
Everything cycles, rotates, and comes full circle eventually.


I don't think Planescape would necessarily require that the PCs become major players in the setting any more than it would be required in a modern-day HeroQuest campaign.

The important thing is to create strong ties between the players and their community, whether it is a planar city, a group of plane-faring merchants, a faction, or even the realm of a particular deity. All of these groups require certain members to travel the planes to deal with extraplanar powers, attempt to alter the beliefs of individuals in hostile terrain, or spread the influence of their community. The PCs can very easily be these members. 4-5 sessions sounds like a great period of time to acclimate the PCs to their local environment and grow fond of it before throwing them into the wider planes. This would also allow them to avoid having to become familiar with the larger setting at first. It is easy to make PCs native to a reslusive portion of the Planes and begin to experience the awe and fantasy of the setting at large just as their players do it. After all, how much would someone who grew up in a small fishing village along the banks of the great river that moves through the Egyptian Pantheon's lands know about Olympus or Tir Na Og, much less the Abyss or the Elemental Planes. Of course lacking knowledge wouldn't work as well in more cosmpolitan areas such as Sigil, but its definitely doable.

I am all for making adjustments to the setting to make it more workable with HeroQuest. In fact a level of that is going to be required to make it even work with the HeroQuest system. However, I think your suggestions carried it a little bit too far. Mainly because the suggestion you gave changes one of the coolest things about the setting... a city built at the top of an infinite spire in the center of an infinite plane, ruled by one of the down-right coolest individuals I have encountered in PS, the unknowable always-silent Lady of Pain who keeps the gods out and the populace in line.

However it would be just as easy to apply your idea to some other important gate-city (such as one of the gate-towns or a city built around a location with alot of gates), making the PCs servitors of (rival) factions who, for one reason or another, wish to keep the city running.


Also it would be very, very difficult for their to be a Great Plane War. The Lower Planes are already invovled in such a thing with the fiends of Baator and the fiends of the Abyss battling it out for ultimate control over the face of "evil" with the fiends of the planes inbetween theirs serving as mercenaries, profiteers, and the like. If the other planes and their populations were drawn into such a war than they would be helping the fiends win without even fighting the fiends. Unless they were careful the nature of the planes would shift as the beliefs of their inhabitants did until the planes of "good" were no more.

If I were to entirely rehash the setting (which is something I have considered) than that would definitely be an interesting way to go about it. Another idea I have thrown around is making it even more focused on mythological pantheons with the PCs taking the roles of individuals who serve to allow two rival pantheons communicate with each other. The scope of the interactions would increase as the game progressed and the player's comfort level did until they reached the point were they were dealing with several pantheons (communities) dealing with each other and trading for the things that theses communities would value (souls, belief, whatever).

You probably should refresh your memory on Planescape. I plan on doing the same for Dark Sun once you have the first version done.

The best thing about Planescape-HQ, IMO, is that it affords us the opportunity to define precisely what it is about a plane that gives it its "Lawful-Goodness." Rather than saying "Hell" is "Chaotic-Evil," (and again I'm just giving a foggy example) we can say that the theme of Hell is "Eternal Torture." In some areas of Hell "Eternal Torture" would be rated at 13, in others at 5w, and in others it might be as high as 17w2. But all actions in Hell would be touched by its theme, its entire reason for being.

doubtofbuddha:
"These are what I beleive the Planescape tropes are:
1) Belief is Power
This trope is the one that is easiest to align with the two tropes that you identified as being associated with HeroQuest. One technique that can be used to get the most out of both this aspect of Planescape and HeroQuest's tropes is to have play center around concepts that will require to get some sort of permanent change in the planes, whether that is a quest to become a god (which will like a large amount of worshippers) or the shifting of some portion of a plane from its current location to one that is more preferable to the PCs."

...

"This can also be easily applied by making the PCs servitors to a philosophy (whether it is religious, one of the factions, or something else would of course be between the players and the Narrator). In recognition of the metaphysical nature of the multiverse all of the philosophies of the planes desire to prove the superiority of their particular vision by getting as many people as possible to believe what they believe, thus proving it to be true. (Sound familiar? ;))"

doubtofbuddha:
"2) Center of All
As the multiverse is an infinite thing then there is no center of the multiiverse. By the same token, anything can be seen as the center of the multiverse because of the fact that multiverse radiates infinitely out of it. This can be applied to mortal (PC) heroes easily by keeping the following idea in mind:"

doubtofbuddha:
"I don't think Planescape would necessarily require that the PCs become major players in the setting any more than it would be required in a modern-day HeroQuest campaign. The important thing is to create strong ties between the players and their community..."

doubtofbuddha:
"I am all for making adjustments to the setting to make it more workable with HeroQuest. In fact a level of that is going to be required to make it even work with the HeroQuest system. However, I think your suggestions carried it a little bit too far. Mainly because the suggestion you gave changes one of the coolest things about the setting... a city built at the top of an infinite spire in the center of an infinite plane, ruled by one of the down-right coolest individuals I have encountered in PS, the unknowable always-silent Lady of Pain who keeps the gods out and the populace in line.

However it would be just as easy to apply your idea to some other important gate-city (such as one of the gate-towns or a city built around a location with alot of gates), making the PCs servitors of (rival) factions who, for one reason or another, wish to keep the city running."

doubtofbuddha:
"Also it would be very, very difficult for their to be a Great Plane War. The Lower Planes are already invovled in such a thing with the fiends of Baator and the fiends of the Abyss battling it out for ultimate control over the face of "evil" with the fiends of the planes inbetween theirs serving as mercenaries, profiteers, and the like."

doubtofbuddha:
"If I were to entirely rehash the setting (which is something I have considered) than that would definitely be an interesting way to go about it. Another idea I have thrown around is making it even more focused on mythological pantheons with the PCs taking the roles of individuals who serve to allow two rival pantheons communicate with each other. The scope of the interactions would increase as the game progressed and the player's comfort level did until they reached the point were they were dealing with several pantheons (communities) dealing with each other and trading for the things that theses communities would value (souls, belief, whatever)."

doubtofbuddha:
"Thanks for the post. It was definitely food for thought and I look forward to your response to this one. I am rather tired though and I hope this is at least half-way coherent.

I am going to bed."

Hi everyone.

I will start a Planescape Campaign with the HeroQuest Rules in a few weeks. So if anyone who ist already working on a Planescape - HQ conversion would share their thoughts with me, that would be great! I would appreciate any ideas on keywords, magic, rules changes etc.
So if you feel like it (especially Scripty and doubtofbuddha), I would pm you my e-mail adress.

Thanks in advance and I will post my experiences in PS-HQ either here or in the Actual Play forum soon!

Nicolas

Nicolas Crost wrote: Hi everyone.

I will start a Planescape Campaign with the HeroQuest Rules in a few weeks. So if anyone who ist already working on a Planescape - HQ conversion would share their thoughts with me, that would be great! I would appreciate any ideas on keywords, magic, rules changes etc.
So if you feel like it (especially Scripty and doubtofbuddha), I would pm you my e-mail adress.

Thanks in advance and I will post my experiences in PS-HQ either here or in the Actual Play forum soon!

Nicolas