A few days ago, I was looking over Jerry Stratton's Gods and Monsters, a game I pimp whenever possible, when I noticed a new link on his page. "Book versions of these works are available." G&M isn't small, so I was pretty interested.

Clicking this link blew my mind.

Bob Young, the founder of Red Hat, (if that means something to you, keen. If not, it's not important) has started a company called Lulu.com. Lulu, in its own words:

Lulu has created a marketplace where creators can deliver their content directly to consumers. It?s publishing without a middleman. That means that more of your money is going right where it should?into the pockets of artists and creators.

Wow! Talk about print-on-demand, this is it. Very interesting. Thanks for the tip, Clinton.

It looks like this can't hurt you at all, since you could still explore other printing options while having your book listed on Lulu as well. Their terms are even better than most of the distribution outlets, too.

I know he said to compare it ourselves, but I thought I'd think out loud ...

I'd like to directly contrast this to buying a pdf and having it coil bound yourself at Kinkos. I've recently bought a couple of pdf games, and so this was fresh on my mind.

(1) Cost

I paid $10 or thereabouts for a pdf of My Life With Master, of which the author got presumably 100% I paid another $5 to have it coil bound at Kinkos. I didn't pay any shipping, so the total cost was about the same to me as the print on demand.

(2) Quality

I very much liked the quality of the final product; it sounds like it is comparable, but perhaps slightly inferior, to Print On Demand.

(3) Time

I got the game immediately, but I had to invest about an hour worth of time in making a pretty bound copy.

...

My point here is that the time is much faster, the quality slightly reduced, and the time investment slightly increased, to buy a pdf, if you want to wind up with a pretty bound copy.

As a buyer, I'd prefer a pdf if I was in a hurry to look at it, but I think I'd like print-on-demand if I didn't think I'd get around to reading it soon anyway.

Except, one of the players in my regular group is blind, which makes it hard for her to read any rules that -aren't- in pdf format.

James,

Good points all.

Lulu works for me with the time increase only because I've recently changed my business model. All my games from now on - and I'll retroactively be doing this with Donjon - have their text for free online. Therefore, anyone interested can read the game all they like. If they want a printed copy, they can get one. It'll take a week or so to get, but they still have access to the text while they wait.

Clinton R. Nixon wrote: Lulu works for me with the time increase only because I've recently changed my business model. All my games from now on - and I'll retroactively be doing this with Donjon - have their text for free online.

Brennan,

I'm offering the text as HTML. See my new game in development, The Shadow of Yesterday, for an example. I'm hoping to include a way to grab a one-page printable version of the entire document soon, as well, and will include the original text files when the entire game is finished.

We do likewise in HTML format for all our core rules, complete with hyperlinked TOC and index.

An example:
http://shades.hinterwelt.com/SOEHTML/AETOC.html


Good luck with the project Clinton. Thanks for the info on Lulu, it looks interesting.

Bill

The current "major" rpg POD place seems to be rpgmall (with pdf sales through rpgnow). It seems to me like Lulu allows for both pdf and POD sales... and Lulu takes 20% off all sales, including pdf. So, to compare the two (for my own edification, and for those reading this thread):

RPGNow takes 20% off any price you set for a pdf. So does Lulu. Advantage: Tie, precisely

RPGmall takes 40% off the sale price. Lulu takes 20% off your royalties. Advantage: Lulu, by far

RPGmall has no setup fee for books - instead, you pay for cover, binding, etc. separately (generally speaking, this works out to no more than a dollar). You also pay 40c/book for warehouse storage. Lulu has a flat setup fee of $4.53 and no warehouse storage. Advantage - RPGmall

RPGmall charges a various charge per page, varying from 1.8c to 3.5c per page, depending on size and paper stock. Lulu (seemingly) charges the same price per page regardless of size, and stock (and in fact it seems as though Lulu only offers one sort of page stock). Advantage - RPGmall

RPGmall's sizes are 8.5 x 11 and 4.25 x 5.5. Lulu's are 8.5 x 11 and 6 x 9. Nothing in particular is better or worse about these two sizes, so the advantage is the same. (Although RPGmall charges smaller prices for smaller pages, and Lulu does not, but that was mentioned above). Advantage- Tie

RPGmall requires a minimum pre-buy of 10 books. Lulu, you don't have to buy anything at all - each book is printed only as needed. Advantage - Lulu

RPGmall issues payments monthly. Lulu quarterly. Advantage - RPGmall?

Is there anything I'm missing on either side? Lulu looks REALLY, REALLY nice (one place to sell both pdf AND print copies instead of splitting it between two stores like rpgnow vs. rpgmall? Very nice.) but I'm still, personally, leaning towards rpgmall for my first publication.

Lxndr,

I don't think you're missing anything. You're certainly not missing the following point, but because it's weighty, I want to revisit it.

RPGmall requires you to print books upfront, and make sure you keep some in the warehouse. Lulu does not. The cost up-front might not matter to most, but the ability to actually print-on-demand book-by-book might.

As for me, the money and POD do matter. This is a digression, but I'm not the book publishing business. I'm in the "writing stuff and letting other people enjoy it" business. This isn't a disparagment against anyone else: it's just that personally really don't enjoy actually printing books, selling them, tracking costs, tracking inventory, and all that. Lulu's less hassle: I don't have to pay anyone, talk to anyone, or deal with anything besides some uploading and filling out a form. This is what I'm personally looking for.

This looks like a better deal the bigger your game is. If I have a 40-page game, and I sell it for $8, I get about $2 a copy.

Did I do that math right?

Yeah. That's a little more than 2.13 a copy, to be a bit more precise.

(Which is more than the $2.04/copy you'd get from rpgmall, after their 40% gross margin was removed, assuming you ordered the minimum order of books. That's Lulu's big advantage over rpgmall.)

Matt,

It is a better deal the bigger your game is - most printers end up that way because of setup costs.

Lxndr wrote: RPGmall requires a minimum pre-buy of 10 books. Lulu, you don't have to buy anything at all - each book is printed only as needed. Advantage - Lulu

So, Matt's question and my answer wound up with me doing some more in-depth calculations (nothing really comprehensive, but definitely more in depth) for various sizes and choices and whatnot.

Overall, Lulu might offer less choices in publication (mostly in terms of page stock paper-weight), but on average, even with the higher set-up cost Lulu has vs. Rpgmall, you're still likely to make more money per printed book sold at Lulu.

In short, the more pages you have, the better a deal Lulu tends to be. And the smaller you set your final sales price (in relation to cost-to-print), the better a deal Rpgmall tends to be.

Which is, by the way, making Lulu look more attractive as an option. And even if I don't choose it, thank you anyway, Clinton, for bringing this alternative to my attention. The only other alternative I'd seen was cafepress, which didn't enthuse me - it's nice to know that rpgmall is not the only stop in town for a one-stop pdf/pod/storefront. Y'know?

No problem. I was thinking about why I find it so attractive compared to RPGmall last night, and figured out how to make it clear: Lulu is a better option for the hobbyist, someone who doesn't want to print books up front and deal with all that.

The Forge is great for what it does, and has inspired some awesome independent RPG companies. I think the hobbyist gets lost sometimes here, though, and am thinking maybe I should make a longer post on that.

I hope this is recent enough that my response is kosher. I read Clinton's note, investigated Lulu to the extent that I could on the web, followed this thread, and as a direct result, ordered Donjon. They shipped it four days after my order and I got it two days later. I can't complain.

Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
Ok, so four days printing + two days shipping later, I get a book in the mail. The printing is very nice: the interior's better than standard printer paper, the text is clear and black, and the covers are well done, if the tiniest bit flimsy.

Christopher Weeks wrote: I think the covers suck eggs.

I was a bit startled at the price.

I ordered a copy of the playtest version of my game as a trial run, but I doubt that I'll run the final product through it.

For a 190 page 6x9 perfect bound book, (with shipping - they only offer fedex, the most expensive shipping method possible short of personal delivery)...I was charged nearly $14.00. That's with the royalty to me set at zero.
So, basically if I take no profit from the book at all, it will still sell for just slightly less than $14.00

I could see it being a challenge to sell a book like that for much more than the minimum fee. It certainly doesn't leave much room for a profit margin.

On the other hand, it does take away alot of the hassles of upfront payment, procesing orders, packing, shipping, etc.

It's going to take some thought, I guess.

RPG Mall is run by James, who knows RPGs, and the market. Further, if you sell via RPGMall, that means that you have the potential sales to RPG players browsing there.

These are big advantages for RPG Mall, I'd say, especially if you want them to be your web presence. For Clinton who has his own, this isn't that much of an advantage.

Mike

I've actually only used Lulu.com. I've ordered several of my own books from them and the print quality is excellent, the covers are fine and it is so easy to use. The storefront that you can set up is really good and you can have a generic one or more customizable.

The major drawback I can see is that with Lulu you are catering toward novel readers and my books are books for RPG. You definitely have a greater target audience with RPGmall or shop etc. Not everyone that visits lulu.com is a gamer. Most everyone that visits RPG is. Plus, it looks like the prospects of actually selling anything is much greater at RPG. Although I haven't really spend much money advertising the game yet, I haven't made a single sale from Lulu. (By the way, if anyone has any ideas on marketing on a budget I would love to hear them). I believe I would have a better chance on RPG.

Last thought, I guess you can do both. I have yet to submit a PDF to RPGmall because it seems very confusing. All the specs you have to have for the book and cover. Lulu is much easier. They convert a Word document into a PDF for you that matches their printer.

Anyway, I love Lulu.com for now.

jason

Yeah, I know what you mean, jason. And if you're doing a size other than 8.5 x 11, Lulu and rpgmall don't offer the same smaller size (6 x 9 vs 5.5 x 8.5). Which might lead to interesting formatting issues, although in theory Lulu resizes anything you submit (so submitting a 5.5 x 8.5 to Lulu.com would just lead to a slightly larger printing).

My solution was to sell pdfs through both lulu and rpgnow, and only sell printed books through one site (in my case, I chose lulu, but it was a very close call - if you read this thread you can see sort of how I got convinced). It'll be nice to give Donjon some rpg-related company in the games section (well, there's a d20 product, but that's really not the same thing).

One nit to pick.. Clinton's original calculations were off by 10 cents. Lulu gets $1.35, but everything else was right on.

Definitely an intriguing option. I'll probably do some comparison shopping myself once I get to the stage where I'm actually looking to print, and Lulu will be on my list.

Wolfen wrote: Definitely an intriguing option. I'll probably do some comparison shopping myself once I get to the stage where I'm actually looking to print, and Lulu will be on my list.

It's an issue if you want to do the "digest" size, Kirt, since RPGmall does 5.5 x 8.5, and Lulu does 6 x 9. It's not a big difference, but it's not an insignificant one, either (enough that you might want to get two separate layouts, instead of just re-sizing). That's why I'm only offering a print copy from one location. Of course, if your book is "standard" rpg size, 8.5 x 11, then there should be no problem at all.

On the other hand, hosting pdfs at both rpgnow and lulu isn't difficult at all, since neither one has anything like an exclusive contract. I just wish rpgnow didn't require you to print out a contract, sign it, and fax it in, but that's an incredibly minor complaint and I know it. I figure the added pdf outlets will be good for the print sales of the book too, even if print sales only exist at one location.

madelf wrote: I ordered a copy of the playtest version of my game as a trial run, but I doubt that I'll run the final product through it.

For a 190 page 6x9 perfect bound book, (with shipping - they only offer fedex, the most expensive shipping method possible short of personal delivery)...I was charged nearly $14.00. That's with the royalty to me set at zero.
So, basically if I take no profit from the book at all, it will still sell for just slightly less than $14.00

Tony Irwin wrote: I'd really appreciate it if you could tell us about the printing quality of the book once you receive it madelf (cover thickness, binding, ink etc).

Cheers,

Tony

The draft copy of my game book arrived today from lulu.com, right on schedule.

Now it seems we'll get to see how their customer service does.


Overall, the book seems pretty good quality.
The printing, (inside and out) of both text and graphics is very good.
There are some unfortunate white flecks along the spine and along the edges where the black is coming off, but I rather suspect that has more to do with fedex using the box for a football than with any fault of lulu's (the box was quite battered and the poor book had fallen out of it's protective wrapping and was curled up and jammed over on one side from rattling around in the box. This is also what I suspect is the culprit for the slight cover curl)
The binding (perfect bound) seems quite solid, though only extended use will really tell for sure. At first appraisal I'd say it's as good as any softcover book I've seen, and better than some.
The cover could maybe stand to be a little heavier, but it's not bad at all.
The interior paper could stand to be a little heavier (there's some shadow visible from printing on the opposite side), but again not bad. I do like the cream colored paper. It's a nice touch and gives it a little extra elegance. (It's kind of funny, the paper is nearly the exact shade I used for the font color on the cover so it looks like a special order)

With one single issue aside...I was quite impressed with the quality of the book, and disappointed (as expected) in the shipping. (The shipping issue my be localized, I have never had good service from fedex in this area)

The single issue, and the reason for needing customer service...
Every other page in the book is blank.
Absolutely and completely blank.
I paid nearly $15 for... half of a book.
(And yes, the PDF uploaded to lulu is intact, all pages present and accounted for.

An email has been sent to lulu.com and I'll let you folks know how that works out.

Um, wow.

Yes, please, definitely let us know. I don't want to set up print sales only to discover that lulu is chopping my books apart.

Lxndr wrote: Um, wow.

Yes, please, definitely let us know. I don't want to set up print sales only to discover that lulu is chopping my books apart.

here's a question: who here is currently selling POD format books at either website? I'd like to see samples of both, myself, before making a decision.

Donjon is the only RPG book currently on lulu (wait a few weeks and Fastlane will be available). As for RPGSHOP, the first one that comes to mind that uses their POD service is Chad Underkoffler's "Dead Inside", which I'm planning on buying.

I received an email from lulu.com, regarding my missing pages, with an apology and an inquiry as to whether I would prefer a refund or a new copy of the book with the missing pages included.

Since the site says they try to respond with two business days, and this response arrived in just a bit over 24 hours, I'd say they're doing a pretty good job so far.

Well I was pretty impressed with what I've read in this thread and what was available on the Lulu site.

But alas, I can't get Frontier printed through Lulu. Nor do they have their cd option anymore as it was cut the exact same day I asked some questions about. I would agree that their response to customer service is as quick as they say it is. although I do like to have the means to talk to a live person if possible.

I'm suprised at how difficult I am finding it to get something as simple as a book printed and three hole punched so it can be put in a d-ring binder. I don't even know where to start with my cd woes.

Sylus Thane wrote:
I'm suprised at how difficult I am finding it to get something as simple as a book printed and three hole punched so it can be put in a d-ring binder. I don't even know where to start with my cd woes.

Well I'm personally looking for something for when I make them commercially as my book is meant to be customizable. If it was simple yes I could go to Kinkos but I have found that at least around here Staples does a much better job. But as you said it isn't really cost effective. I reall wish I could use K-State printing services as they have a full digital set up but unfortunately they aren't allowed to compete for public contracts and I'm not a student anymore.

Sylus Thane wrote: Well I'm personally looking for something for when I make them commercially as my book is meant to be customizable. If it was simple yes I could go to Kinkos but I have found that at least around here Staples does a much better job. But as you said it isn't really cost effective. I reall wish I could use K-State printing services as they have a full digital set up but unfortunately they aren't allowed to compete for public contracts and I'm not a student anymore.

You might contact Andrew Cameron at eXpress.media: ASCameron@ExpressMedia.com

I've been using them for My Life with Master, and have been very pleased with the quality. Their website lists "3-ring binder" as one of their printing options, so I imagine they'd do three-hole punch with no binder. Their prices are exceptionally competitive and their customer service has been exceptional.

Paul

Lxndr wrote: Donjon is the only RPG book currently on lulu (wait a few weeks and Fastlane will be available). As for RPGSHOP, the first one that comes to mind that uses their POD service is Chad Underkoffler's "Dead Inside", which I'm planning on buying.

Paul, I'm confused about Express Media's cover requirements. Do they do color covers, or is it only 1-color black on paper stuff? I'm reading their quote form as only 1-color black, rather than 4-color. Also, any idea on coating/lamination?

Matt,

My Life with Master has an ink-based color cover printed on 10pt C1S stock on a digital press. I used Will's artwork in black and white, but I actually could have had as much color in the cover as I wanted. eXpress.Media did me a sample toner-based print of the cover on a higher gloss King James stock, and it was nice, but I rather liked the slight dot gain of the ink-based print so that's what I went with.

When I inquired about lamination, they offered it, but it was something they outsourced and I would have had to print up a minimum of 500 covers. Perhaps this has changed. They also offer UV coatings and spot varnishing. Skip the quote page and just email them.

Paul

Well, I wound up being almost exactly the worst case on fulfillment times, 6 days from order to print, and 7 days to ship, for a total of 13 days from order to book in hand.

I compared the Donjon book with New Dimension's Pirates RPG, which is done very much in the same style, (spiral bound, thin cardstock cover). I think Lulu wins by small margin in quality, the spiral bindings are identical, but the Donjon cover is distinctly heavier (although still on the thin side) and the interior paper quality is better for Donjon.

I don't know who New Dimension uses to print their books.

Lulu also seems to compete ok on price, the Pirates book (at 150 pgs) was $25 from the authors hand, and Donjon (at 84 pgs) cost me $19.15 with shipping.

The only drawback was the two weeks to fulfill.

Also, I just have to say, being that this is the first time I've ever seen Donjon as a printed product, damn that's a nicely laid out book. Kudos Clinton.

You know, at some point you ought to tack Donjon Pack B1 on the back and sell the combination of the two as "Donjon Deluxe" :)