The initial Relationship Map is done so now I am going to run a thread focused on the actual evolution of my new HeroQuest Campaign. Here is the thread for the campaign set-up if anyone is interested (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9351)

First off (for those who missed the last post) the PCs in the campaign are as follows:

Okamar, a stealthy Spolite graverobber, and his widowed father front as antiquities dealers. Raiding a well-hidden tomb reunited him with a curse making him travel or suffer. He studies history, artifacts and valuables; and always appraises things. While in Torang to sell black market artifacts, he was inspired by Teelo Norri’s purity. He gained citizenship after giving his artifacts to his sponsoring orphanage priestess. He worships Rufelza and Teelo Norri, but maintains his Lanbril contacts. His curse was examined in Glamour. An escape artist and expert dagger thrower, his face is hard to recall. People trust him despite contrary evidence.

Radevenash was Glamour-born. Young, he was noticed by Alanaris, a scholar of the Imperial College of Magic, who praised his keen mind and understanding of Lunar ideals and offered him admittance. He joined the Cerise Church and studied wizardry. He journeyed far on behalf of the Earth and Moon Order—to Tarsh, to Balazar, even to the dwarven caves—for he advocated the Lunar Way with great skill. A dwarven outcast community, impressed with his staff-fighting skill, gifted him with the silver staff Moonwing. He possesses a compelling voice and fine understanding of the ways of his Empire and her environs, and he excels at reconciling opposing ideas.
Radevenash and Okamar know each other.

Eronith, the Talastari Warrior Devotee of Ranhar. The reincarnation of Ranhar. Favored by the hags of Taliana. He is the wielder of the glowing spear Starfury, which allows him to prove his destiny. He is the young war chieftain of the Nungaring tribe. Quick Thinking and natural charisma cement his position. He uses his great strength and fleetness to help him when hunting. He is an inspirational speaker, and can entrance many telling stories of Talastari's myths and history. Few can match his brawling ability, as he strikes and dodges with fluid motion. Has a band of loyal warriors at his call.

Calla is a Dara Happan Petty Noble Devotee of Selven Hara. Possessing an angelic face and sweet and innocent demeanor this naive girl can charm her way out of trouble. With a love of reading and music, she believes herself cultured. Looks can be decieving, as she has a mischevious streak. Trained in archery, she can fight atop her horse. She is good at hiding thanks to sneaking around the house for years. She posessess a ring that heals and a fire daimon whip, passed down by her deceased grandfather. Has a ghost kitten that spies and sneaks. She posessess a youthful beauty.

The player chose the pick ten abilities option. Her character is name Ashaelti and she is the reincarnation of one of Ranhar's companions. She is seeking to throw off the effects of this fate. She is a Sylilian Initiate of the White Moon, Zaytenera whom she hopes to be able to use to overcome the fate that seems to be afflicting her. She is friends with Calla and has Calla's father as her patron.

Right now the entire group is in a small town outside of the City of 10,000 Magicians preparing to enter into it for the purpose of finding information.....

For the record this is the second HeroQuest game I ran. The previous one was a bit more short term.

For some reason it seems to be playing differently then before.

That could be because of the fact that the bangs were not as well-designed or because of the variation in the group composition but I found myself using the actual bangs a bit less.

I had three major "bangs" happen in play.

The first was of course the introduction and decleration that only one of them would be entering into the city. There was some conversation between the party members, but the reincarnated hero of the Talastari failed his role to recognize the reincarnated form of his old companion in Ashaelti.

Okamar was able to get into to see Ordandavesh. He attempted to improve the potential of future interactions by bringing to fore the fact that he could "acquire" antiquities for the wizard. But got a minor defeat. In hind-sight I probably should have had that be the initial roll in the contest to see about him getting into the city. Instead I am just going to have it so he has a -3 in all future interactions with the wizard. (what would this situation be called, obviously not a bang since he initiated it, or was it more of a follow-up of the initial bang).

I also decided that due to the distance from the Glowline that Ashaelti's destiny and resurfacing memories were giving her headaches she played this well and will serve as a nice lead-in to the demon-worshipper approaching her.

Khorkenus tried to send her own but she succeeded in a contest against with him using her Daddy's Little Girl to let him stay (her PC is really annoying to me for some reason. Argh)

Back at the tavern I had the reincarnated hero see another Talastari, Margor the Unflinching, who had one of Ranhar's items and approached him. He claimed to be the reincarnation of Ranhar and they ended up getting into a duel. With Calla and Ashaelti going up stairs, the PC wizard trying to calm things down (and failing), and Okamar and Yrsa Sevendaughter betting on the outcome.

They battled it out and (somewhat to my surprise), the PC was able beat Margor with a marginal victory. And decided to continually drive his spear into Margor until a group of Lunar soldiers arrived and demanded that he surrender to him. He didn't speak their language so he spent a hero point to say that he knew it (which looking back on previous actions doesn't make sense as he had already defined that he did not as he was trying to convince Ashaelti to be his translator; I will accept that as an error of being new to the play style and move on) and ended up agreeing to go with him.

Okamar attempt to communicate through Calla and Ashaelti his desire to get a room (Khorkenus had purchased all remaining rooms for his entourage), but found it impossible to get lodging with him them. Khorkenus flat out refused to see him. Calla told him that he could probably see him if he came by for dinner.

So instead he went to the Temple of the Lunar Way in town and was able to get a room out of the priest. He didn't seem to be tempted by the treasure at all. I think I will play up how valuable they look the next time he is there.

That is just about where the session ended.

I think that next session I am going to have it so that Khorkenus approaches the reincarnated hero in jail and suggest that he come work for him. He will tell them that he can make sure that he doesn't suffer the consequences of getting into a brawl before going into the City of 10,000 Magicians (which would namely be getting flogged and pretty much killing any of his chances as a smelly barbarian to get into said city).

I am going to also have Khorkenus reveal that he was the one who had the PC wizard sent to start to co-opt the Talastari myths and then meet with both the wizard and Ashaelti for the purpose of planning out how, exactly they are going to work towards bringing the Talastari into the Lunar Empire. He is also going to suggest that they bring his daughter with them so that she can "travel" and perhaps gain abit of maturity.

I am not quite sure how I am going to work Okamar in yet as he doesn't seem to have the same level of implicit connections that everyone else has.

He knows the PC wizard but thats about it.

I think I am also going to introduce a new bang of having Okamar either find the priest of the Lunar Temple dead or perhaps help defend him from an attack and then decide what he does about the situation.

Any thoughts?

Hi Jesse,

These bangs seem a bit heavily loaded towards certain responses... Perhaps the reason that you aren't using too many of them is that they may be too restricted in terms of application?

I usually design Bangs around one of the following ideas:

1- Revealing a relationship between characters(Wait, my rival is having an affair with my boss!?!)
2- A relationship between two characters changes(You're my son no longer!)
3- Events or information that might change a relationship between two characters

Chris

Bankuei wrote: Hi Jesse,

These bangs seem a bit heavily loaded towards certain responses... Perhaps the reason that you aren't using too many of them is that they may be too restricted in terms of application?

I usually design Bangs around one of the following ideas:

1- Revealing a relationship between characters(Wait, my rival is having an affair with my boss!?!)
2- A relationship between two characters changes(You're my son no longer!)
3- Events or information that might change a relationship between two characters

Chris

Hi Jesse,

In stories that feature the "wandering hero" types, one of the first things that occurs is that the hero makes friends.

What may be a useful "quick fix" for your players, without railroading them at all, is offer each of them 3 different relationships at 17 each, for free. The only stipulation is that the relationships have to be to specific individuals, not communities as a whole. Then just present your heroes with a variety of narrator characters without any pressure, and let them pick their friends.

This will tie them in quickly, but not force their hand into choosing sides, or railroad them in any fashion. Plus they also will get to quickly realize the value of relationships in play.

Chris

Bankuei wrote: Hi Jesse,

In stories that feature the "wandering hero" types, one of the first things that occurs is that the hero makes friends.

What may be a useful "quick fix" for your players, without railroading them at all, is offer each of them 3 different relationships at 17 each, for free. The only stipulation is that the relationships have to be to specific individuals, not communities as a whole. Then just present your heroes with a variety of narrator characters without any pressure, and let them pick their friends.

This will tie them in quickly, but not force their hand into choosing sides, or railroad them in any fashion. Plus they also will get to quickly realize the value of relationships in play.

Chris

Hi Jesse,

Actually, it should work just fine. Realistically, few people become tight friends that fast, but in fiction, it happens all the time. Consider most movie "romances" that usually consist of intro, slight flirting, some indication that "this is serious", to let's get it on, usually played out over 3 scenes, more to increase dramatic tension.

If you and your players are comfortable with taking up Author stance, it should work out without any problems.

Chris

Bankuei wrote: Hi Jesse,

Actually, it should work just fine. Realistically, few people become tight friends that fast, but in fiction, it happens all the time. Consider most movie "romances" that usually consist of intro, slight flirting, some indication that "this is serious", to let's get it on, usually played out over 3 scenes, more to increase dramatic tension.

If you and your players are comfortable with taking up Author stance, it should work out without any problems.

Chris

Alright, Session 2 is complete.

Some hilights:

Korkenus (NPC), the wealthy and influential Lunar Dara Happan Noble offered Eronis freedom from the grated pit he was and the informaiton he needs in exchange for him swearing three oaths upon his god. The first was to protect some of his servitors from harm as if they were his own kin. Eronith was fine with this. The second was that he return to Jillaro (Korkenus' home base) and form a hero band with a Lune guardian. Eronis wanted to know why the Lunars were concerned with the reuniting of his homeland. The third was that Korkenus wanted him to have Talastar join the empire as an allied province after he reunited it. For this Eronis flat out refused.

Further complications were added by the fact that Korkenus and Eronis did not speak the same language so Ahaetili (PC servitor of Korkenus) was present and served to translate the conversation. In trying to reduce potential conflict while at the same time serving her own interests she ended up exacerbating the situation with Eronis refusing Korkenus's offer entirely.

Korkenus bid him farewell and had them thrown Eronith back into the pit.

Calla had dinner with Korkenus (her father) and Ashaetili and brought Okamar over to introduce them. Despite the chilling stare of Korkenus' Sharagarite bodyguard Okamar was able to make amiable conversation with Korkenus, but ultimately Korkenus refused to let him stay in their floor of the inn. During dinner Korkenus let on that he had a Imperial College of Magic student sent here to do research for him (the group assumed he was talking about another PC known as Radevenash). He also revealed he sponsored the Silver Shields regiment. (see Masters of Luck and Death)

Calla also started complaining about Korkenus' actions and contradicted him in front of Okamar so he reprimanded her. After dinner they had an argument and went to bed.

Ashaetili recognized Radevenash and they got into a conversation about old times and what each of them was doing in the city. She decided to try to help him get into seee if he could stay for the night. Since Korkenus had gone to bed he had to prove himself to Mankarkas, Korkenus' Shargashi bodyguard. Unlike Okamar who had fared poorly against him, Radevenash faired very well (major victory) and was given permission to stay there. He also purchased a relationship with Mankarkas.

In the night Eronith was able to use his magic to escape his entrapment and go to hide in the woods. He was hurt in the proccess though and also suffered a temporary reduction in his magic after some failures.

Okamar was awoken the next day by Yrsa Sevendaughter and she revealed that she had found out that Orandavesh (the man who determines who gets into and out of the City of 10K Magicians) was a lotus leaf-user. She suggested that they blackmail him. He didn't like that particular avenue but eventually agreed to go along with it, but he wanted to wait before they did it. She agreed but said he should meet her that evening so they could plan it out.

Radevenash encountered a drunk Aggarite Bran Seven-Strengths who drunkenly boasted of his exploits while asking what he should do about his lover wanting him to kill her husband. He was eventually dragged away by a headache-ridden Ashaetili (see next paragraph) but he suggested he wait until he came back with a solution for him.


Ashaetili after being annoyed with Bran's shennanigans and desiring a way to do away with her ever-increasing headache, tried to sneak some alcohol upstairs but was admonished by Calla about it. On her way up to her room she encountered Laborodach who asked if they could go and talk privately and that he had a way for her to deal with her headache. She asked Radevenash to follow her (and Calla did it anyway) and Laboradach asked to speak with her alone. She brushed off Radevenash's presence and he said when she was ready to talk privately to come find her.

Okamar came back from his morning errands to find the priest who he was staying with, Edasul the Scarlet, dead. He examined the body for a few minutes before Edasul's wife showed up and screamed murder and started throwing around accusations. With a hero point and the aid of a secondary mythology roll to prove his superior knowledge of the myths of Rufelza (and thus his status as an Initiate of Rufelza) he avoided detainment but was told not to leave the city. He also wanted to help in the investigation and, through some convincing was able to succeed.

And thats where we ended.
Erinoth wants to get back into the town in order to get his spear and find a way into the City of 10K Magicians.
Okamar is going to investigate the death of the priest, meet with Nathos Youngblood (he made arrangements), and meet with Yrsa about the blackmail attemptt.
The rest? Well.... They are going to have an "interesting" meeting with Korkenus as he reveals more of his plans for them (how do they react to these plans? We'll see). Erinoth is going to finally recognize Ashaetili as the reincarnation of his old companion.
Still need to figure out stuff I can do with Calla, Ashaetili, and Radevenash.

Overall I think it went better then the first session but there are still some issues regarding how I am going to get the group to move forward together to the relationship map of the next phase of the story. Calla, Ashaetili and Ravenadash should be easy. Okamar and Eronith (especially with Eronith out for Korkenus' blood) are going to be less so.

Author stance requires just a slight change in thought process, but a profound one. Simply, instead of thinking "What would the character do", you think "what would player X be interested in seeing happen". Once you've determined what that is, then you think "Why would that happen?"

Yes, this take some extra thought. You can't just "play the character". So, saying that it doesn't "make sense" for the characters to get relationships, is just not trying. Instead, start with the assumption that they do, and then figure out why it happens. Make it plausible.

This really doesn't take much in play. It can be as simple as, "You look the bartender in the eye, and see that you both realize that in some essential way, you're kindred souls. Take a relationship with him at 13 for free."

If you want to make more of it, you can. Decide that the bartender has some personality traits in common with the character. Or that he served in the same regiment. Or that they both knew some really cool friend. Whatever it takes as an excuse to make the cool thing happen.

This is a skill that you've forgotten. Yes, before you started playing RPGs, you knew how to do this - it's a basic storytelling skill that we're all taught as part of our linguistics, and watching movies, etc. But the RPGs that you've played have made you forget to do it (it's very easy to just do "what the character would do"), and if you want to play this style of play, you have to remember that skill you once had.

Think that you're not a GM in a RPG, but a director in a movie that's being created in an improv manner. Would a director allow a minor character to mess up some nifty thing that will kick off some plot just because he's gotten into that character's head, and is doing "what the character would do"?

Anyhow, to make sure that you don't forget in play (which you will because old habits die hard), pre-plan a lot of this stuff. Not really Bangs, but good set up stuff. If a character doesn't have something to lose, then give them something to lose. That sort of principle.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Author stance requires just a slight change in thought process, but a profound one. Simply, instead of thinking "What would the character do", you think "what would player X be interested in seeing happen". Once you've determined what that is, then you think "Why would that happen?"

doubtofbuddha wrote:
So I asked the group what they wanted and, by a 1-peson majority, got that they wanted to follow the Unification of Talastar thread. So next session I am going to present situations that logically allow them to follow through into the situation that everyone agreed was the most important. Is it going to make everyone completely happy? No. However, I think I would be able to produce the sort of things that interest them even following this particular path.

Oh, and in case you are curious the "plausible" path I am going to follow is going to basically be having Korkenus instruct the PCs who were more in favor of following a Lunar annexation plot to journey into Talastar as double agents, pretending to have betrayed Korkenus in favor of Eronith but in reality going there so that they could have a united Eronith to hand over to the Lunar Empire, one whose myths had been successfully subverted to the point where the presentation of Sedenya would seem as natural to them as their current worship of Taliana.

How does that sound?

Yow, sorry for the long delay for a reply. I have been really busy with scool, gaming, and getting involved with a girl. :D

But yes, I am clear on what you were relating and I think I have been successful in expressing what you said to the players. They are becoming proactive about introducing themselves into the story, and I even specifically mentioned that they should feel free to ask if they want more creative control over what is happening.

Last session was very successful, though I didn't end up doing a large degree. Most of if it was player driven with me running existing NPCs in the relationship map and facilitating things moving forward. (Namely by having Ashaetili run into Eronith as he was sneaking back into town)

The majority of the session was taken up by Eronith, Ashaetili, Calla, and Radevanash. interacting with each other. The primary context of the interaction was based on reconcile their supposedly opposing goals but there were a number of subtexts, including Calla's growing resentment of Ashaetili, Ashaetili's treating of Calla as an irresponsible youth, Calla's attraction to Ravanedash and then Eronith (something about the muscular barbarian type appealed to her), and Ashaetili's grappling with the presence of Ranhar right here and now and how she wanted to deal with that.

On the side Okamar was successfully able to use a combination of blackmail and bribery to ensure that he gained the pass into the city which should pave the way for more interaction between him and the other group members.

Calla moved towards asserting herself and trying to prove her worth to her father. Ashaetili also let slip that she hadn't given an exact translation of Korkenus' words and Calla related this to her father. She also had her previous romantic interest in Radevnash shift to Eronith.

Eventually they were able to work out a deal where Eronith would, upon uniting Talastar, allow Lunar Missionaries to set-up shop in Talastar, would pay tribute to the Lunar Empire, and would come to Jillaro in order to hammer out a much more firm deal with an official Imperial representative. In exchange he would be provided his spear and armor back as well as some Lunar support for the Uniting.

Ashaetili also went to check out if the other guy claiming to be Ranhar was able to be "detected" by her connection to the past. He was, which caused her to accuse me of being evil while grinning. I think she is plotting to kill him or Eronith. Not sure which.

In general the players told me they enjoyed this particular session alot better, probably because I was able to give them the inter-character interaction that they wanted withou it seeming to be too implausible. We also have them working towards a particular direction with a general goal in mind as well as individual specific ones.

I also noticed that they are getting a better handle on the system and the framework required for it, particularly Okamar's player. He was able to come up with some pretty interesting utilizations of his abilities when blackmailing and debating with first the merchant and then the guy responsible for determining who gets into the city.

Personally I think that my construction of the relationship map and creation of bangs wasn't as successful as it should have been. I am hoping that with the next stage of the campaign, Dart War: Jillaro, that I will be able to make up for my failures in this stage.

doubtofbuddha wrote: Last session was very successful, though I didn't end up doing a large degree. Most of if it was player driven with me running existing NPCs in the relationship map and facilitating things moving forward. (Namely by having Ashaetili run into Eronith as he was sneaking back into town)

In general the players told me they enjoyed this particular session alot better, probably because I was able to give them the inter-character interaction that they wanted withou it seeming to be too implausible. We also have them working towards a particular direction with a general goal in mind as well as individual specific ones.

I also noticed that they are getting a better handle on the system and the framework required for it, particularly Okamar's player. He was able to come up with some pretty interesting utilizations of his abilities when blackmailing and debating with first the merchant and then the guy responsible for determining who gets into the city.

Personally I think that my construction of the relationship map and creation of bangs wasn't as successful as it should have been. I am hoping that with the next stage of the campaign, Dart War: Jillaro, that I will be able to make up for my failures in this stage.

Wow, its been awhile since I last posted.

I apologize, I have been busy with acquiring a girlfriend and playing one of the best video games I have ever seen. ;)

Anyway, the last session went fairly well.

A summary:
Ahsaetili talked with Margor the Unflinching (the second reincarnation of Ranhar encountered thus far) about his views on subjects largely relating to Talastar. She decides that he is a bit too bloodthirsty and leaves him in the pit so that he can be lashed later.

Okamar finds out that whoever killed the priest used some sort of magic to block the guardian from identifying the individual (I assume this would be an Otherworld affinity feat?). They plan on performing a ritual to see if they can call upon Rufelza for intervention and Okamar offers to participate.

Everyone else meets for breakfest and to further discussions on Eronith meeting with Lunar representatives in Jillaro. Eventually he informs everyone that a woman named Yrsa is the one who is planning on awakening the dragon. Khorkenus sends Radvenash to Ordandavesh to inform him of this (and to find out if a decision has been made regarding who is getting access to the city). On the way there he sees Margor being flogged by the Aggarite guards of the village. He is not flinching.

Ordandavesh (who had just met with Okamar about Yrsa) is pretty shocked at the news that this Yrsa person is apparently also threatening the city. He sends Radvenash back to Khorkenus with the news that one Okamar has gained admittance into the city.

Radvenash comes back and informs Khorkenus of this news. He is livid and retreats to his rooms with his bodyguard in tow. Soon afterwards Margor shows up, looking none the worse for the wear over his flogging, and meets with his warriors. Eronith moves with his warriors on the opposite side of the room and begins talking with Calla. Ashaetili comes back and retreats to her room to start drinking (Should I give her free points to put into the alcoholism trait? ;))

Later that evening Margor and his cronies had disappeared and Ashaetili was sent by Khorkenus to go retrieve Okamar for a meeting. She was followed by shadowy figures but was able to evade her persuers.

On the way back they encounter and evade the pursuers and thanks to Okamar's skills, are also able to discover that they appear to be Talastari.
Margor the Unflinching is no longer around so everyone assumes it was him. Radevenash goes outside with Yennek (his broken Mostali sidekick) to see if he notices anyone watching the inn.


Okamar negotiates with Khorkenus but they reach an impasse. He refuses to trust Okamar and Okamar won't relent his position despite Khorkenus' offers (I consider this my major failure of the session. I didn't run this as a contest like I should have.)

Downstairs Yrsa is waiting for her meeting with Okamar and is approached by Eronith (who doesn't know who she is). They discuss Lunar domination and he defends his choice to go with alliance with the Lunars despite the probability that they will end up taking over the country. For him survival and the continuance of his people is more important than their freedom. (I particularly liked this part as it made Eronith come to some decisions about his beliefs by presenting him with someone who expressed concerns his character probably shared).

Calla came over to try to talk to Eronith but he ignored her to focus on Yrsa. This miffed Calla, as she had started to fancy Eronith and did not like him ignoring her. Eventually, Okamar comes down and Yrsa suggests they take a walk and chat.

He explains that he gave her up to Ordandavesh in order to help them both get into the city. She doesn't take that well (though she already knew thanks to a contest I rolled earlier between her black market contacts and his) and attacks him, with her warriors as back-up. They knock him down to dying but Radvenash shows up in time to bring him back to the inn. Calla tries to use a healing item to bring him back but fails. badly. (she rolls a 20 and uses a hero point to counter act that).

Eronith is able to save him by using his Walk on Starlight feat (and a roll of a 1) to get Okamar back to the temple. The priestess of Natha is able to save Okamar. Calla, Radevanesh, and Eronith head off to the ambush site and start looking for a way to find Yrsa.

Thats where we left off.

Thoughts:

As I noted above I think my main failure that session seems to be that I didn't run the negotiations between Okamar and Khorkenus as a contest. Now, I am having less of a way to bring him into the collective. There are still a few avenues (such as Eronith requesting allegiance for saving Okamar's life), but my major card is gone.

Also I still seem to be having difficulty bringing out the more unique and fantastic elements of Glorantha as I have had one player mention that it doesn't seem to be that different from other fantasy settings.

I also took the oppurunity to ask my players what my flaws were GMingwise, seeing as I have ran games for many of them for a year.
Results:

(Sam)
Three words... Cloven in Twain!

Just Kidding...

Positivies:
Describing Action: I think you do a good job of describing action. A much better job than I have ever done as a DM. You do, though, have a few "pet phrases" (as noted above). I don't have a problem with it, and I thinks it lends a little needed levity to some situations.

Rules Knowledge: You have a strong knowledge of the rules mechanics, but you're not a rules lawyer. You're willing to stretch when it's needed.

NPC Interaction: While you don't have a wide range of "voices", you do a fair job of portraying the various NPCs.

Negatives:
Information Stingy: There are times due to a certain plot device that force you to be a bit stingy with information, but there are also times when you seem perhaps a bit too stingy... and it has cost us time and/or lives. If your NPCs don't give us the proper leads, we won't investigate the right things. If your NPCs don't sound like something is urgent, we'll be slow to react to a threat.

New Shiny: While there is nothing wrong with wanting to play new stuff... there is a point at which you zone out of the current campaign because you've found a new or interesting system or addition. It can be a bit disconcerting when one has invested time, thought and energy to a character.

Pacing: It happens to the best of us... but there are times when the pace of the game is off. Too much time spent on one thing, and not enough on another.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Overall, I think you do a great job.


(Mary)
What Sam said. Additionally, there is a (mis?)conception that you're purposely trying to make the game difficult. It's hard to enjoy a session when the primary thought going through our minds is "how is Jesse going to screw us over today?"


(Lisa)
"I have to agree with what both Sam and Mary said. It is annoying when you start getting worked up over a new game/system and are just stop caring about a current campaign.

Further, there really is a sense of "What the hell is he going to do to try and kill us/screw us today?" Because a lot of times you seem to throw us into situations that are damn nigh impossible to escape. Like with Sam's character last week. "Oh...wait my character gets yet another shot...oh, no there's no doctor around. Nope, no one can help him. Nope, he'll die before you get him to the doctor." Luckily Chris managed to pass his roll and run across starlight. It just...seems like there is no leeway for mistakes when we play your games. If you misroll then chances are you're dead/screwed over, and don't have much a chance to make it up.

I agree with Sam as well on the catch phrases. I do want to scream every single time you say "Cleave him in twain". But yeah. Same goes for mispronunciation. But that's not a big deal.

Erm...what else...

I agree about your npcs. Both on that they are well characterized and played as well as that they don't always give enough info. It really does suck when we'll go to investigate and you're just like "They don't know anything." Or "It's closed" Because then it's just like...um...gee, thanks.

Ummmm...

I have lots of fun!

Um...I do think sometimes you take the rules a bit too far sometimes. And other times you're lenient with them. So...yeah. But you do that in everything that has rules it seems.

Also, sometimes you take too much liberty with what our PC characters do. Like..."Oh you did such and such" when...it really doesn't make sense for the character to have done it...but you're usually good at being like...okay that's fine then what do you do...but you seem REALLY annoyed about it. So sometimes it's intimidating to speak out against something cause you get pissy and then do the "Fine whatever" but it seems obvoius you're pissed...

And...now I'm tired."

I agreed largely with Sam's comments as I have noticed them as well.



We will see how that turns out, though.

People seem to be getting in the groove of things though and have reached the point where they aren't having much difficulty with the basics of the rules system anymore. More complex things still require rules-look ups, and I still need to consult the contest chart, but otherwise it is running with increasing smoothness. Though we still have that akward time where we count up bonuses for contests. I have made a ruling that if you want to include any augment in a roll you need to include that particular augment as part of the dicussion (i.e. trying to convince someone to help you out using Convincing Argument and using the fact that you are a Lunar Citizen to augment requires you to mention that you are a Lunar Citizen as part of the conversation befor the roll).

I am on Spring Break right now and am about to start constructing my relationship map and bangs for Jillaro.

Any suggestions?

Oh yeah and the dicussion on said topic is:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/worldsoftuerny/99479.html

Sounds like you're still fighting your players. If anything that they said is innaccurate, or doesn't really tell the whole story, then ignore anything below that's not pertinent. But consider that their perception of what's going on may be more important than the reality.

From what they've said, you seem to still feel the need to keep information from them, for instance. This is a huge narrativist no-no. The purpose of NPCs is, as your players realize, to deliver information on which they can act. So never say no when it comes to information.

Now does that mean that you can't have conflicts regarding information? No, these are amongst the most fun sorts of conflicts. It's just that you need to apply the "yes, but" principle to failures. That is, when a hero fails on a die roll to persuade someone to give information, they still get it, but something else goes wrong. The very simplest method here is to just say that the penalty that's delivered represents resentment, or a feeling of being owed by the target.

So, a character gets a minor defeat against a NPC. Well, then the -10% is applied on any future rolls to get more information from that NPC. Eventually, if this isn't rectified, the player will end up causing a complete failure, at which time they've made an enemy of the B. Or any other result in between. A major failure could result in the NPC spreading word that the character is a cheapskate making any attempt to financially influcence everybody who has heard have a -50% to the ability used.

This is the general rule, failure doesn't mean that the player doesn't get what they want, neccessarily, it just means that something bad happened related to the attempt.

Why wouldn't you let them roll to find a doctor? In the example that was given it sounds like you just said no. When players do somthing like this, don't look at it as trying to circumvent conflict, but that they're trying to define the scope of it. Which is a positive thing. In this case, just adjust the conflict to something regarding that. Can they find a doctor in time? If they fail the roll, mayhap they've found an expedient doctor who may not be the best? And does a failure on his part mean that the character dies? Or does it merely leave the character with a bad limp that will be a fun reminder of the close call?

Eventiually they'll get the idea that you aren't so much trying to hose their characters as just put them in interesting situations. To get there more quickly, try to co-opt them into the process. Again, ask them what they think would be a fun conflict to get into next. Get to the point where the players are hosing their characters as hard, or harder than you do.

Also, remember to ensure that the situations and conflicts are part of what the player sees as interesting about the character. Staging conflicts that don't address something that's interesting to the player results in them feeling that you're just attacking the character pointlessly. Ensure that whatever the result of the conflict, the player will like their character more when it's done.


On the subject of directing PC actions, I still maintain that this is a good idea. I think that you still have a little bit of a trust issue, and that their worries are centered on this. Basically, they see you as trying to "hose" them, so they worry that if you're directing their activity, that you're doing it just to ensure that they're in a hard place. Which is somewhat accurate. You have to get to a place where they see you putting their characters in certain situations as enabling for them. So all of the above paragraphs are important to this.

If the player decides that their character wouldn't do something, that you've framed too far, then go back and tell them why you wanted to do that - what's supposed to be fun about it. Or just go back and let them declare what's going on. Yes, this may be mistrust on their part for no reason, but don't let that breed more distrust. You have to trust them too, and accept that the player is making the change for the right reason (whether they are or not). So don't display displeasure with this, and don't try to change their minds on this with discussion; just work on the trust issue. Eventually it'll work itself out to where they'll be willing to have you throw their characters on hot coals if it helps the game.

Mike

Hmm....

My only problem with players just automatically finding the information that they want to have is that alot of the times they end up asking people who would have no clue of the situation. Should I just randomly decide that a bartender suddenly knows all about the some random noble's secrets just because the PCs decide that he is the sort of person who would know that thing?

I do wish that the players would bring up the situations where they feel I have taken GM force too far. I didn't realize that they had percieved me as going too far with it..

Also as for failure meaning that they get information but there are reprecussions. I guess I am just having difficulty dealing with that sort of situation. Once again why would the NPC always divulge the information that the PCs want. I mean, does this mean I should never have secretive or stubborn NPCs who don't want to share their information or what?

Also does this extend to scene framing?

For example the PCs left off the game trying to find Yrsa, but she has fled the scene (realizing her cover is blown she is returning to her Blue Dog Clan). None of the PCs have tracking abilities and the only person who might be aware of the Yrsa-Blue Dog connection isn't with them.

Should I just let them find her even though there isn't a plausible way for it to happen?

What do you suggest?

doubtofbuddha wrote: My only problem with players just automatically finding the information that they want to have is that alot of the times they end up asking people who would have no clue of the situation. Should I just randomly decide that a bartender suddenly knows all about the some random noble's secrets just because the PCs decide that he is the sort of person who would know that thing?

I do wish that the players would bring up the situations where they feel I have taken GM force too far. I didn't realize that they had percieved me as going too far with it..

Also as for failure meaning that they get information but there are reprecussions. I guess I am just having difficulty dealing with that sort of situation. Once again why would the NPC always divulge the information that the PCs want.

I mean, does this mean I should never have secretive or stubborn NPCs who don't want to share their information or what?

Also does this extend to scene framing?

For example the PCs left off the game trying to find Yrsa, but she has fled the scene (realizing her cover is blown she is returning to her Blue Dog Clan). None of the PCs have tracking abilities and the only person who might be aware of the Yrsa-Blue Dog connection isn't with them.

Should I just let them find her even though there isn't a plausible way for it to happen?

What do you suggest?

Maybe I would be better off playing a sim-style game....

I mean if part of the game isn't about trying to find out the right people or the right ways to get this information (which is probably sim) and the game isn't about trying to overcome challanges (which is probably gamism) then what is it about? What is the point in playing?


Also,
I think I mis-expressed the situation.

The one who knows wouldn't have any problems telling them, he is the one who is currently severely injured back at the temple.

Its also possible he never made the connection ( I honestly don't remember).

Supposing he doesn't know (because if he does then I can solve it easily), how should I deal with them having no way of finding out where she is but really wanting to find her (and perhaps beating the crap out of her)?

I mean if part of the game isn't about trying to find out the right people or the right ways to get this information

Preface: I admit I have not read all of the posts in full, so my advice below may not be 100% applicable, but I think it works as very general advice on the subject.

Quote:
Also as for failure meaning that they get information but there are reprecussions. I guess I am just having difficulty dealing with that sort of situation. Once again why would the NPC always divulge the information that the PCs want.

That's your job as GM. Figure out a reason why, and stick it in there. Here's a better question, why wouldn't they give the information out. People are social, and fall over themselves to give people directions and gossip, etc. Assume that the NPC has lots of reason to tell the PCs unless...

Bruce Ferrie has a very good article on Staging Tips for Research in HeroQuest - well worth a look, very germane to the previous posts. Anyway, here's the conclusion:

So what happens if the PCs are researching a bit of information that you definitely wanted to give them. Perhaps it's the vital clue to lead them to the climax of the episide. Would you really hold back this crucial plot element because of a bad roll or two? No, I didn't think so... The simple solution to this is to let them off without rolling, but that's not very dramatic. Surely we can try something else?

What you can do instead is to change the contest, so that failure means they still get the information, but there's another problem. The greater the level of defeat, the bigger the problem:

Marginal Defeat - The information contains minor red herrings.
Minor Defeat - The heroes miss their senior prom because they spent all night in the library, or take so long to find the information they're looking for that they have little or no time to make preparations based on their findings.
Major Defeat - One of the heroes is injured by a falling encyclopaedia, or suffers a particularly painful bout of writer's cramp.
Complete Defeat - The library burns down while they're doing the research.

The goal of the contest has therefore changed from "find the information" to "find the information before/without/as well as/despite some other thing" - this means that, however badly they do, they still get the information.

Or, change the nature of the contest -- instead of being Contest: Get Info, make it Contest: Get Info without Making Enemies. this completely changes the dynamic -- instead of seeing whether or not they get the info, now you ASSUME they will get the info, and the only question is who they piss off in the process. Or make it Contest: Get Info Discreetly. Again, the assumption is that they get the info (though on a Complete Defeat in either case, I would say they don't), but whether or not they do so in a private or public manner is in question. It depends on the storyline involved, and what the goals and dangers are.

Proper contest structuring is, I think, key to players enjoying HQ and narrators having an easy time of it. But I think it is extremely difficult, since most RPGs don't work that way. If you want to find something out, you roll to see if you do, you don't roll to see _how_ you get it. This ability to define contests is one of the most versatile parts of the system, the greatest narrative tool a narrator has. But it is hard to get used to. Most of the published scenarios don't seem to use contests very well, for example -- most contests are very simulationsist, IMO, without really taking advantage of the finer points of the system.

I also don't like the idea of forcing the narrator to make NPC decisions based on the heroes deciding to ask random person X, which seems to be part of the situation here.

The idea of the heroes asking some random bartender, and then the narrator being obligated to make that bartender important so that he can give the players the info, just rankles for some reason.

Use the extended contest to make something like this more interesting to the players, without you as narrator having to rewrite your campaign to fit what they want to do, and without having to railroad them.

My solution, when heroes go to the "wrong" person to get information, is to have the "right" person conveniently near-at-hand to provide it. If the person with the necessary information is the noble's valet, he or she just happens to frequent the pub at which the heroes choose to make their enquiry. Perhaps the bartender directs the heroes to the valet, perhaps the valet discretely contacts the heroes after overhearing their conversation... it's up to you.

Yup. ALL kinds of ways to accomplish the essential act of getting the information the characters need to know into the hands of the players.

Buserian gives an example above of an outstanding way to accomplish this taking advantage of some of the interesting features of the HQ system (or any system defined by Conflict resolution). Michael's works well for any game.

A variation on the idea of the "bartender doesn't know, but there's someone in the bar who does" is to have that someone be opposed to the PCs rather than potentially helpful.

Instead of being directed to him and using him to get the info, the person runs off and reports to his bosses that the PCs are sniffing around. A scene or two later BLAM in come the goon squad kicking down the door and taking names.

Tracking the goons back to who sent them, of course, reveals who the real bad guy is (as this device does in so many movies) and demonstrates yet another way of getting that information to the players without requiring "hunt the widget" play.

In fact, there are SOOO many ways of doing this, that there is no worry of over using any single device to the pointo of it getting silly.

Wow.

I didn't realize this many people were actually reading this thread. It had reached the point where I thought it was just myself and Mike talking back and forth. :)

Thanks for all the input, everyone. It gives me something to think about for the next session.


Jesse Dean

I think that we're all in agreement here that the key is for the GM to provide good conflicts in general. What that means is that conflcits facilitate the advancement of the story. That is, they don't exist to potentially shut down the PCs options - instead, failure, success, either way it just means new and more interesting conflicts.

As long as you keep thinking in these terms, you'll be able to frame contests in such a way as to be an ally to your players in getting them to the fun stuff. Trust follows, and soon you'll see just how fun this mode is.

Mike

Well we finished the last game in this particular chapter and it ended with a whimper rather than a bang. In light of almost getting killed by Yrsa, Okamar decided to take up Khorkenus on his offer. The others decided that since they couldn't track Yrsa (and did not want to take Okamar's information about Yrsa's clan to confront her), that they would just let the guards handle it.

Ashaetili entered into the city and was able to meet with the man she was looking for (A Storm Mystic) he gave her some information about the other Ranhar incarnates and she tried to figure out which ones were the ones she had met so far.

Okamar, Calla, and Eronith traveled with Khorkenus to Jillaro and Ashaetili and Radevenash followed a week later.

On the way to Jillaro, Okamar encountered a shadow raven who gave him a (bad) riddle that served as instructions as to what to do after he got to Jillaro.

Ashaetili and Radvenash got the impression they were being followed and watched on the way to Jillaro but were never able to figure out who it was.

A few players are going away for the summer in a week or three so we are taking a break from this game until when they get back.

In the meantime we will probably be playing a HeroQuest conversion of a d20 setting that was popular among the players, Mindshadows.

Nick Brooke wrote: Bruce Ferrie has a very good article on Staging Tips for Research in HeroQuest - well worth a look, very germane to the previous posts. Anyway, here's the conclusion:

Hi folks,

There's a couple of things that may be of use.

First of all, as Mike said, if you're playing Narrativist, or in fact, any non-Illusionist play, there's no definite outcome to play. If you don't write a list of events, missing an event doesn't preclude the action continuing. Missing a clue doesn't have the domino effect of destroying an possible solution. It simply means finding out the information in a different way, or at another time.

Second, as other people mentioned, you can always choose to make the contest about what happens WHILE getting the info, not the actual info getting itself. This doesn't actually remove challenge, nor make things boring. Success or failure means the difference between seeing a witness safely to hiding or hearing the clue as they die in your arms.

Third, instead of seeing the mystery as "done and waiting to be solved", see it as a cover-up conflict. There are people who want to keep things hidden, and there are people who either want to reveal it, or simply know too much and want to be left alone. All of these people will be trying to cover their rears and further their goals. Even if the heroes missed every single clue, someone will assume they know too much and come looking to stop them or pump THEM for info.

I don't plan each scene in advance, but I look at each scene as a way of providing information to the players(not necessarily the heroes). Mostly it has to do with what kind of personality a given character has, or a relationship between characters. The mystery/cover up itself is simply an excuse to pump up the tension for characters to conflict and try to cheat, lie, hide and use each other all around. Instead of it being a mystery to be solved, like real life, its a bunch of drama and bullshit all around, that happens to erupt in violence and action.

Chris

Bankuei wrote: Third, instead of seeing the mystery as "done and waiting to be solved", see it as a cover-up conflict. There are people who want to keep things hidden, and there are people who either want to reveal it, or simply know too much and want to be left alone. All of these people will be trying to cover their rears and further their goals. Even if the heroes missed every single clue, someone will assume they know too much and come looking to stop them or pump THEM for info.

Hi Buserian,

I think there may be some miscommunication. Narrativist play only requires that players be allowed input into events in play, and that some form of premise gets addressed during play. By no means does Narrativist mean you have to be willing to change the backstory at the drop of a dime.

Many games have preset R-maps, where the "murderer" is determined, and that isn't going to change. On the other hand, how people find out who the murderer is, and what they do about that, is completely open.

Chris

Buserian,

What you're refering to is often called Illusionism around here. It's not strictly speaking railroading because, presumably, the players are amenable to it. That is, it's like going to a magic show. We know that the illusions are just tricks, but we enjoy the "magic" just the same. In Illusionist play, the idea is to give the players the illusion that they're creating the plot, when in actuality the GM is doing it via manipulating things behind the scenes.

Note that, as Chris says, not having information pre-prepared or having it prepared are both methods that can support either method of play. That is, I've run Illusionist games where I was making most of it up as I went along. And I've run Narrativist games where I didn't diverge from one pre-established fact. And I've done the reverse of both as well.

These are all just techniques that, used correctly, can help or hinder your mode of play. None are required.


But that's all getting off of the topic of the thread, which is Jesse's game. And it seems that the last session wasn't too great. Any ideas as to why the "whimper" ending? I mean, did people not expect to stop playing, hence not getting to any plot resolutions? Or was the choice to end playing a result of players just seeming disinterested?

I'm getting a sinking feeling that the advice that we're giving Jesse isn't working for some reason. I'd like to try to rectify that if possible. Jesse?

Mike

Bankuei wrote: I think there may be some miscommunication. Narrativist play only requires that players be allowed input into events in play, and that some form of premise gets addressed during play. By no means does Narrativist mean you have to be willing to change the backstory at the drop of a dime.

Many games have preset R-maps, where the "murderer" is determined, and that isn't going to change. On the other hand, how people find out who the murderer is, and what they do about that, is completely open.

buserian wrote: That's where I was coming from when I said this -- I think many players, if they ever found out that the narrator hadn't decided who the murderer was, might feel tricked.

Mike Holmes wrote: Buserian,

What you're refering to is often called Illusionism around here. It's not strictly speaking railroading because, presumably, the players are amenable to it. That is, it's like going to a magic show. We know that the illusions are just tricks, but we enjoy the "magic" just the same. In Illusionist play, the idea is to give the players the illusion that they're creating the plot, when in actuality the GM is doing it via manipulating things behind the scenes.

Note that, as Chris says, not having information pre-prepared or having it prepared are both methods that can support either method of play. That is, I've run Illusionist games where I was making most of it up as I went along. And I've run Narrativist games where I didn't diverge from one pre-established fact. And I've done the reverse of both as well.

These are all just techniques that, used correctly, can help or hinder your mode of play. None are required.


But that's all getting off of the topic of the thread, which is Jesse's game. And it seems that the last session wasn't too great. Any ideas as to why the "whimper" ending? I mean, did people not expect to stop playing, hence not getting to any plot resolutions? Or was the choice to end playing a result of players just seeming disinterested?

I'm getting a sinking feeling that the advice that we're giving Jesse isn't working for some reason. I'd like to try to rectify that if possible. Jesse?

Mike