Topic: Ships of Weyrth
Started by: kenjib
Started on: 2/13/2004
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 2/13/2004 at 10:13am, kenjib wrote:
Ships of Weyrth
I've been doing some work on ships for a homebrew. I think the tech level is quite compatible with Weyrth. Weyrth is on the cusp of having a gunpowder revolution, but it is not yet in widespread use. As regards other personal arms, however, the technology level is at times more advanced than the point at which gunpowder began to be widespread on Earth. Thus, no direct date can be used to parallel Weyrth and Earth ship technology.
What I did was to take the latest advances in ship design before the considerations of cannon became central to the design of ships. In the mid 14th century, shortly before the appearance of the galleon, ship to ship warfare was still largely a matter of grappling and boarding. Many principles of siege warfare were applied to the larger ships, especially the carracks, which were becoming designed more and more, essentially, to be floating castles. Archers, flaming pots, light siege weapons including catapults and ballistae, and marines armed with spears and other weapons were the order of the day. The advantage of elevation was also significant, where the carrack again excelled. On Earth, light cannon was used, but really only for use against enemy crew, not to damage ships, so it can easily be removed from the picture entirely.
So, here are a handful of the large ships that would have been most predominant in a European context (I will be looking into other contemporary non-European ships like the Chinese junk soon too):
Cog/Hulk: Two older ship designs still in limited use, but only as merchant vessels and typically in the smaller ports that do not have the deep harbors that a carrack or caravel requires. It remains useful in these ports due to its flat bottom. Trade has been increasingly consolidating in large ports though, so the days of this ship design are clearly numbered. It is a round ship with a single square sail (a hulk might have a second square sail). It is a rather wide ship, often only twice as long as it is wide. It is the most recent iteration of an ancient design of long standing, but has recently been outclassed by the development of carracks and caravels.
Galley: A longship derived from ancient design, it is oared while in port, in battle, or when pursuing/fleeing an enemy. Otherwise it uses one or two lateen sails. 24 or 26 row benches on each side is a typical number. It is most common as a ship of war, as the expense of the extra crew and reduction in cargo capacity to house the crew make it not as efficient for mercantile endeavors, although merchants in the inland seas sometimes use galleys. It is a popular ship for pirates as well, being faster, more maneuverable, a more shallow draught for hiding in small coves, and having the oar crew serve the double purpose of also being a boarding party. The advantages of the galley in war are the superior speed and maneuverability of oar compared to sail, which often translate into a much more effective ability utilize ramming techniques as well as positioning for advantage in boarding numbers. It does not handle well on the open seas and is typically used in sheltered waters or near the coastline.
Carrack/Nau: The typical carrack has square sails on the fore and main masts, a mizzenmast fitted with a lateen sail, and a square spritsail on the bowspirt, although some older carracks have only two masts. The most recent Sorecian (note: replace "Sorecian" with the Weyrth equivalent of the most advanced shipbuilding people) innovation is a topmast with a square topsail, giving them increased power. The most prominent feature of the carrack, however, are the tall sides with highly fortified castles at the fore and stern. This design allows them to make effective use of traditional siege tactics. Marines armed with bows, arrows, firepots, and spears can very effectively hold enemies at bay supplemented with light artillery pieces – ballistae? The defense at the fore and stern typically include slits that archers can use to fire from cover. These ships dominate the open seas, and are used for long distance trade and open seas exploration. It suffers in maneuverability against a caravel and even moreso a galley, but has a distinct advantage in height and fortification for boarding operations.
Caravel: It is a smaller ship than the carrack suitable for the open sea as well as coastal in river navigation. It has three masts adaptable to square and lateen rigging and handles a variety of weather well. Its versatility makes it the ship of choice for exploration. They have a sleek design, with a typical length to breadth ratio of around 5:1. Caravels have little cargo room and cannot be made very large without sacrificing the traits for which they are prized. The caravel enjoys maneuverability and speed superior to the carrack (but not the galley which dominates calm waters), but also sits low in the water, making it more vulnerable to boarding actions.
I think it would be a really interesting exercise to extrapolate from here where ship design would have gone were it not for the impending dominance of gunpowder in naval technology. Would the advancement of castle-like fortifications have continued to develop until we had massive and near impregnable floating castles? Such ships would have been slow though, and primarily defensive (perhaps protecting valuable cargo or defending strategic points). Smaller and more maneuverable ships would still be important and would probably accompany such large ships as outriders and messengers, like the later pinnace.
I also think something similar to the later galleas still would have emerged even without cannon, combining fortification with the maneuverability of rowing. Such a ship would have been quite formidable. This, though, most likely still depends on forced labor of some sort, either from slaves or from prisoners. The former might not be an option for much of Weyrth, but the latter is always a possibility (along with the difficulties it presents, including a lack of good training needed for complex maneuvering).
Another tack to consider is whether ramming technology from the classical era could have been revived, or if other non-powder based siege weapons would have become more prevalent. Finally, Weyrth is a fantasy world, so are there any possible fantastical embellishments that would work but still be in keeping with the low key magic of Weyrth? The flagship of the Geluroise fleet could have a nasty surprise or two...
On 2/13/2004 at 12:04pm, Andrew Mure wrote:
RE: Ships of Weyrth
I could give you some more information on galleys, triermes and other oared warships.
Firstly an misconception everyone has to get out their system is the myth that these ships were rowed largely by forced labour. This is a piece of propaganda created by the church to discredit first the classical civilisations, then the Vikings and finally the Turks. Though going into the 16th century some slaves were used more as the result of this propaganda than the cause the vast majority of galley oarsmen were volunteers of one form or another. This is because far more so than on a sailing ship a galley's Captain requires the loyalty of his crew as it takes a few men to refuse to row to bring the ship dead in the water.
Thus most powers that used galleys in large numbers realised early on that cohersion was far more effective than fear. It may suprise many people who believe in the 'slaves-chained-to-oars' myth that many of the most effective galley navies in History were fielded by early Democracies. This is because Patrioticism and the belief of being part of the state which these societies inspired more so than their autocratic contempories were one of the most effective ways of mobilising large numbers of loyal fighting men. When Athens smashed the Persian fleet of Xerxes with 'her wooden wall' it was the free citizens of the city not slaves who sat in the oar banks of her galleys. Venice in the 16th century equally used volunteers, her judges offered crimminals the stark choice of hanging or serving a sentence in the galleys! Of course the military has always done very well out of recruiting from potential convicts.
Tactically the oarsmen were considered combatents and were usually the second wave after the marines in any boarding action. The Romans made this second wave far more effective by having men of the legions rowing the boat. A tactic which galley captains often employed in fighting another galley was to race alongside at close quarters then raise the oars at the last moment so that the other ship's oars would smash and break against your hull as you went past. Agrippa, Augustus' admiral employed this tactic when fighting Anthony and Cleopatra at the battle of Actium in BC28.
Adding ship equipment here are two.
The Corvus was effectively a siege tower built onto a ship, which would be a worthy addition for the floating castle theme, it had a drawbridge to lower across gaps between ships with a big spike to drive into the wood of the ship being assaulted to make it harder to remove once hooked.
For defense against boarding ships were often covered in thick netting to entange boarders whilst the crew impladed them with pikes and other long weapons.
On 2/13/2004 at 4:28pm, kenjib wrote:
RE: Ships of Weyrth
Andrew Mure wrote: I could give you some more information on galleys, triermes and other oared warships.
Firstly an misconception everyone has to get out their system is the myth that these ships were rowed largely by forced labour. This is a piece of propaganda created by the church to discredit first the classical civilisations, then the Vikings and finally the Turks. Though going into the 16th century some slaves were used more as the result of this propaganda than the cause the vast majority of galley oarsmen were volunteers of one form or another. This is because far more so than on a sailing ship a galley's Captain requires the loyalty of his crew as it takes a few men to refuse to row to bring the ship dead in the water.
Thanks for clearing that up. In my post I was referring to the galleas being powered by prisoners or slaves, rather than the galley, the galleas appearing, I believe, during the 16th century. You point out that ships like the galleas might have used slave labor only as a result of church propaganda, but at the same time the end of feudalism created a sharp increase in the value of labor around this time and the economic importance of slavery became quite apparent in areas other than sea power as well. All that said, Weyrth seems to remain feudal though so I imagine labor prices would still be low and a paid crew much more tenable than it was in 16th century Earth.
In the end I agree that there's a good case against the necessity of slave labor for oared ships. What do you think about the cost issue?
Andrew Mure wrote:
Thus most powers that used galleys in large numbers realised early on that cohersion was far more effective than fear. It may suprise many people who believe in the 'slaves-chained-to-oars' myth that many of the most effective galley navies in History were fielded by early Democracies. This is because Patrioticism and the belief of being part of the state which these societies inspired more so than their autocratic contempories were one of the most effective ways of mobilising large numbers of loyal fighting men. When Athens smashed the Persian fleet of Xerxes with 'her wooden wall' it was the free citizens of the city not slaves who sat in the oar banks of her galleys. Venice in the 16th century equally used volunteers, her judges offered crimminals the stark choice of hanging or serving a sentence in the galleys! Of course the military has always done very well out of recruiting from potential convicts.
Tactically the oarsmen were considered combatents and were usually the second wave after the marines in any boarding action. The Romans made this second wave far more effective by having men of the legions rowing the boat. A tactic which galley captains often employed in fighting another galley was to race alongside at close quarters then raise the oars at the last moment so that the other ship's oars would smash and break against your hull as you went past. Agrippa, Augustus' admiral employed this tactic when fighting Anthony and Cleopatra at the battle of Actium in BC28.
Adding ship equipment here are two.
The Corvus was effectively a siege tower built onto a ship, which would be a worthy addition for the floating castle theme, it had a drawbridge to lower across gaps between ships with a big spike to drive into the wood of the ship being assaulted to make it harder to remove once hooked.
For defense against boarding ships were often covered in thick netting to entange boarders whilst the crew impladed them with pikes and other long weapons.
Cool stuff. Thanks! This is really helpful.
On 2/15/2004 at 11:03pm, Edge wrote:
RE: Ships of Weyrth
There is a reference to cannons in TROS so isn't it possible that some navies would have these and then ships would follow the real world tech advancement?
I personally would prefer no cannons but i just saw it refered to...I think it was under the artillery skill.