I'm interested in a house rule that will result in more hits to the arms. In my experience in Kendo and Aikido, the arms tend to be in the way when you're fighting, and they get hit a lot. An attacker rarely swings at an arm on purpose, though.

So, here's an idea. After you're hit, you can spend 3 CP to shift the damage to an arm. This represents a desperate twist at the last second or the fact that the defender's arms are in the way of the attack already. Like Full Evasion, you can't do this right after you attack.

Are there any problems with this? It makes arm-covering armor pretty effective, but with a CP cost. Also, if the arm that takes the hit has a shield, then the shield AV applies.

I'm waffling on the CP cost. 2 might be enough. Whaddya think?

My gut feeling says 2 is enough. But I think playtesting will yield the result. I'd start with 2, and if it's too common go to 3.

One question might be whether or not the choice should really even be voluntary by the defender. One might argue that the defender would automatically try to block a blow to the head, for example. Many people will automatically flinch and try to protect their head when attacked. That's how my grandfather always managed to poke me in the stomach...fake high go low....(ok that's a feint but...)

Feng wrote: I'm interested in a house rule that will result in more hits to the arms. In my experience in Kendo and Aikido, the arms tend to be in the way when you're fighting, and they get hit a lot.

An attacker rarely swings at an arm on purpose, though.

So, here's an idea. After you're hit, you can spend 3 CP to shift the damage to an arm. This represents a desperate twist at the last second or the fact that the defender's arms are in the way of the attack already. Like Full Evasion, you can't do this right after you attack.
Are there any problems with this? It makes arm-covering armor pretty effective, but with a CP cost. Also, if the arm that takes the hit has a shield, then the shield AV applies.

I'm waffling on the CP cost. 2 might be enough. Whaddya think?

toli wrote: One question might be whether or not the choice should really even be voluntary by the defender. One might argue that the defender would automatically try to block a blow to the head, for example. Many people will automatically flinch and try to protect their head when attacked.

Okay, Jake is right: arm attacks are part of swordplay. In my Kendo experience, they mostly are "checks" -- quick cuts to wrist or forearm that lead to other attacks. But taking an exchange to attack an arm in TROS seems like a waste of time, unless the guy is armored everywhere else. If I roll a good solid hit, that could have been a good solid hit to the head or body, which is much more desirable.

So, I guess I'm saying: arms should be hit more, even when you're not aiming for them. How can I make that happen in TROS? Hmmm.

you're forgetting style. It's pretty funny to chop off the guy's arm.

Well, not funny for him.

I have also noticed in our group the lack of aiming for the arms.. since we know the damage tables.. we tend to swing or thrust for whatever can result in a fatal or near fatal wound.. swings to the neck/head.. shoulders.. thrusts to the neck, head, and chest.. etc.

Our combats rarely last more than 4-5 rounds..
And when you take into account that is 4-5 seconds.. it makes combat very very quick.
I'd like to see combats that are long, drawn-out.. exhausting...
to the point that if there are multiple opponents... teamwork helps a hell of alot more, as you will be very very tired going after your fifth opponent.
Endurance therefore, can be more of a factor.. as with some characters endurance might not be so high(3).. which means that they seriously need to finish off their opponents faster.. but if that same character goes against someone in plate, with a high EN.. and this NPC playing 'possum' on defense for awhile.. it makes for a greater challenge.. FAR greater challenge.
If your combats go by too quickly to be fully enjoyable and potentially lethal to your characters... consider outnumbering them.. or have some archers shoot at each person every chance they get..

-Ingenious

Ingenious wrote: I have also noticed in our group the lack of aiming for the arms.. since we know the damage tables.. we tend to swing or thrust for whatever can result in a fatal or near fatal wound.. swings to the neck/head.. shoulders.. thrusts to the neck, head, and chest.. etc.

Our combats rarely last more than 4-5 rounds..
And when you take into account that is 4-5 seconds.. it makes combat very very quick.
I'd like to see combats that are long, drawn-out.. exhausting...
to the point that if there are multiple opponents... teamwork helps a hell of alot more, as you will be very very tired going after your fifth opponent.
Endurance therefore, can be more of a factor.. as with some characters endurance might not be so high(3).. which means that they seriously need to finish off their opponents faster.. but if that same character goes against someone in plate, with a high EN.. and this NPC playing 'possum' on defense for awhile.. it makes for a greater challenge.. FAR greater challenge.
If your combats go by too quickly to be fully enjoyable and potentially lethal to your characters... consider outnumbering them.. or have some archers shoot at each person every chance they get..

-Ingenious

I never said we 'never' go after arms... we just don't normally consider it.(Though I am craw-fishing now in order to rephrase my original statement)
We've chopped off arms in combat..
Most of the time when we had to.. i.e. walking dead.. etc.
And who is to say that hitting someone in the arm automatically means that it gets chopped off? I've seen instances in tros where plate + high TO means no appendage loss.

Then again most of us just like the decapitation factor I guess..
*shrug*
We'll be exploring the entire spectrum of combat soon enough I beleive..
-Ingenious

Going after the arms was one of my last PC's big targets... Preferably the hand/wrist area on thier sword arm.

You get an extra die, and if you have a reach advantage you get another. You don't need to even chop anything off to win, a good level 2 wound does plenty - and your opponent may even drop the weapon!

It's tempting to go for what I call: "The Big Kill" (killing your oppontent with one fantastic blow)
Flying heads and entrails are spectacular, and are very popular with the kids. But, The Big Kill is much easier to achieve if your opponent is not quite himself when you go for the gold.

And then there is the undead.. who care not where they are hit.
They don't feel it enough to care about which arm or leg gets chopped off or hacked at.

-Ingenious

Perhaps a better way to account for this would be to use distance, since the reason arms are hit so often is that with the classic longsword, kendo, or fencing stances they're closer (and thus come in range sooner) than the head or body is. The lower legs are closer than the body is too, but although they're not hit in Kendo and SCA combat because they're illegal targets remember that in the battle of Wisby approx. 70% of the skeletons examined had leg wounds.

Suggestion: if the target uses a stance where parts of his/her body "stick out" ahead of the body, the attacker may target those areas (only) and treat his weapon as if his weapon length were one longer. This would last either either party closed to shorter, standard range and the rest of the body could be targeted.

To use this rule, though, the players would need to know what different stances look like. Perhaps illustrations could be included in TFOB for the benefit of those who are not mundanely swordsmen?

Ingenious wrote: And then there is the undead.. who care not where they are hit.
They don't feel it enough to care about which arm or leg gets chopped off or hacked at.

-Ingenious

We have only just started playing and on the weekend went through dozens of combats just to get a feel for the combat rules. After hours of constant battle the three stand out attacks we found were the swing to the arm, the thrust to the head and the thrust to the pelvis.
Swing to the arm was by far the best. Greatsword being the weapon of choice, those arms come off pretty easily, especially with the +1 cp.

:)

What do you roll to avoid dropping when cut in the arms? I see the listing for zone VII cuts (some have penalties too) but I couldn't find what the roll mechanic is.

kenjib wrote: What do you roll to avoid dropping when cut in the arms? I see the listing for zone VII cuts (some have penalties too) but I couldn't find what the roll mechanic is.

Gideon,

the bonuses for arms and leg strikes given in the back of the book (just before the hit charts) cover your suggestion, essentially. What is needed is not encouragement to go for the arms and legs, but some way to model how commonly they are hit accidentally.

As for Walking Dead, from what I've seen, dismemberment is about the only way to stop them short of sorcery. I don't consider a decapitation to be worthwhile as they're not actually using the organs in the head anyhow, but chopping off arms and legs is very effective (especially if you start with the arm holding the weapon, if any) Once the arms and legs are detached from the body, you pile the squirming mass somewhere relatively fire-proof (or not, if you don't care about damage) and burn the damned thing.

I'll agree that they don't seem to be common choices in most scenarios.. but then, as a relative amateur, I don't think about striking for arms either when I'm fighting for real.. legs sometimes, if I can see a legal shot under the shield, but I tend to look mostly for body and head shots. As I gain experience, I'll probably use them more often, both in game, and in life.

Actually, caveat.. I like arm and leg hits for when I'm not trying to kill my opponent, but wounding them isn't particularly distasteful. Even if I managed to cleave off an arm, I can probably remove any other weapons before they recover, and administer first-aid to keep them from bleeding to death.

Except after you hack off the arms, and they start going after you with their teeth. In which case you have options.. Go for a leg and make it not be able to walk.. or chop off the head. I'm pretty sure I would go for the head as going for the leg invites a simultaenous attack from the damned thing..

-Ingenious

Not sure how to make arm hits more likely, besides maybe rolling on a different die and/or changing the hit location table to make arm hits more likely. I've toyed with the idea of making any weapon wielding arm (not medium or heavy shields though) a "floating location" could be high middle or low depending on where you're striking or defending. I’m not sure this is such a good idea though, it seems high maintenance.

To shed some light in another area of arm hits though, I’ve studied martial arts, and when doing mock knife fights with rubber/foam knives, I was instructed to play by the rule of…

First person to get hit ANYWHERE, loses.

It tends to make the simulation more realistic. You fight defensively, and feint a lot. Your opponent’s hand and arm (near the hand) become your primary target. You also go for the head and knee/upper shin on ducking moves (how do you model the duck n slice in TROS?). In particular, in response to a thrust, a doge backward or to the side with a simultaneous slash to the hand/arm is a frequent game winner. Sounds like the evasive strike maneuver to me. Perhaps evasive strikes should be restricted to arm attacks, or just be much more likely to result in arm attacks?

-Alan

Poleaxe wrote: Perhaps evasive strikes should be restricted to arm attacks, or just be much more likely to result in arm attacks?

Ingenious wrote: Except after you hack off the arms, and they start going after you with their teeth.

Wolfen wrote:

Poleaxe wrote: Perhaps evasive strikes should be restricted to arm attacks, or just be much more likely to result in arm attacks?

This actually sounds good to me.

Ingenious wrote: Except after you hack off the arms, and they start going after you with their teeth.

Which I would call shorter than Hand Range, so they'd have an additional penalty to strike. Add the fact that they DO get Pain penalties, though much reduced, so by the time it's lost both of it's arms, it's pretty easy to take the head and both legs from there... It's just straight butcher work, which I imagine is highly unpalatable to even trained warriors.

Poleaxe wrote: how do you model the duck n slice in TROS?

Brian,

I actually wasn't clear on this one (Duck n' Slice).

I was actually thinking of this moving aggresively, not as a dodge. Meaning, your opponent has big shield that extends very low to the ground (tower shield), or his guard is medium/low, and you wanna get way below it. How would you model the attack duck n slice in TROS? Would you ever feasibly need to duck significantly to attack the lower leg as I've described?

-Alan

Poleaxe wrote: Brian,

I actually wasn't clear on this one (Duck n' Slice).

I was actually thinking of this moving aggresively, not as a dodge. Meaning, your opponent has big shield that extends very low to the ground (tower shield), or his guard is medium/low, and you wanna get way below it. How would you model the attack duck n slice in TROS? Would you ever feasibly need to duck significantly to attack the lower leg as I've described?

-Alan

Poleaxe wrote: Brian,

I actually wasn't clear on this one (Duck n' Slice).

I was actually thinking of this moving aggresively, not as a dodge. Meaning, your opponent has big shield that extends very low to the ground (tower shield), or his guard is medium/low, and you wanna get way below it. How would you model the attack duck n slice in TROS? Would you ever feasibly need to duck significantly to attack the lower leg as I've described?

-Alan