Take a weapon like an Arming Sword or Long Sword.

Both of these weapons are designed to both cut and thrust. They are better at cutting (which is why they have a lower cut ATN) but still the weapons wouldn't have a point if warriors weren't expected to need it from time to time.

Yet in a game where you have the luxury to crunch numbers there seems to be little reason to every thrust in the game with an Arming Sword. 1 lower ATN and 1 lower damage to boot (which seems overkill to me...the 1 lower ATN is already pretty much guarenteeing lower damage anyway).

So my questions are these.

1) anyone out there using one of these weapons in actual play ever find themselves choosing to thrust instead of swing? If so, why? What are the advantages of the thrust that lead you to accept the lower ATN and damage.

2) If not, is this realistic? Should Arming Sword armed warriors thrust occassionally? Maybe they swing 3 or 4 or 5 times for every one time they thrust, but still, they likely would thrust from time to time, or they wouldn't bother putting a point on the sword.

3) If Arming Sword armed warriors would be thrusting from time to time, and in actual player players are really never doing it (because the penalty is significant) what can be done to encourage a more historical level of both cutting and thrusting.

What are the advantages to a real wielder of the sword to thrust from time to time even with a weapon designed more for cutting?

I would suspect its the ability to catch an opponent off guard, like pitching a change-up after a series of fast balls and maybe land an easy hit that shouldn't have gotten by.

But how to model this in the combat system?

My only idea would be to use the accumulating -1 CP system for repeated feints for repeated cuts, and reset the penalty when one throws a thrust into the mix...but this seems extraordinary tedious to actually track.

Or am I way off...and people are thrusting all the time with these things...

Regarding the arming sword...
My first character had one.. performed a few thrusts with it I beleive in practice combat awhile back. It seemed to be fine with me.
Also, as a player I view thrusts as more lethal than cuts. So that's a motivating factor for thrusting. Also, in reference to the damage tables.. I beleive it takes less of a wound level to be of significance for a character in terms of thrusting. I.e. they have higher pain, bloodloss, and whatnot.

As for my new character, who uses a sword and shield..hence, an arming sword.. will occasionally use a thrust with it. I forsee that as being an open possibility and or something that will definutely happen.
You could do a feint cut and then thrust possibly.. which might result in an opponent declaring a block as a defense, as compared to an expulsion or other some such thrust-based defense... which might free up an area to be thrusted at and negate the original block move. *shrug*
That's a bit of an exotic feint though.. and it might not even do what I think it might.
*shrug*
Also, I find it easier to thrust to open spots, such as the neck..
My character wears full plate, and has side neck-guard plates..(forgetting again the terminology for those things), but the front of his neck is still an open target for thrusts.. but for cuts the neck would be protected...
There's another motivating factor.
Would you want to cut at someone's arms wearing plate? Or would you rather thrust at their armpits instead, which is a far more vulnerable area..

Again, this is just my opinion of the matter.. and might not have any actual truth behind it.
-Ingenious

In real life there were plenty of different designs of arming swords and long swords. Some would thrust better than cut. Adjust the numbers.
Also, like he said, thrusting can be more lethal.
Then there are the situations. If you're playing realistically, and you face someone in much armour, thrusting may be your only option to wound him.

1) Thrusts are faster (bonus on the reflex check) and thus very useful in a red/red situation.

2) Thrusts take up less room in narrow corridors etc where I would impose penalties for swings (especially of long weapons)

Other than those, I figure you're about right. Jake's the WMA expert, but certainly in Kendo there are a lot of swings and not much in the way of thrusts, which probably indicates the usefulness of each (and in competition, you're not even allow to thrust if you're below a certain rank).

Brian.

And don't forget thrusts to the face of a pot-helmeted opponent. Otherwise the others above are quite correct.

In actual swordfighting, thrusts are rarely used as an opening attack. It is too easy simple to step offline and attack the thruster's arms. A thrust is normally used once the weapons have engaged, as one person withdraws and leaves an opening for the other person. This is especially true from the bind.

In damage terms, thrusts are not as powerful as cuts. A thrust needs to be carefully placed to do significant damage. The human body has a lot of protection from bone and muscle, and there is a surprising amount of non-essential places. If people are interested in how exactly people get damaged in real sword fights, here is a link:
http://www.realfighting.com/0503/flurzframe.html

In game terms, the system as it stands could be adapted. Decreasing the ATN even more for thrusting from such manouevers as 'Bind and strike' is one option. However, I would keep the damage penalty as is.

James

That's exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about James.

If there are certain points in a real sword fight where it becomes advantageous to use a predominately cutting sword to make an opportunistic thrust, what are those pointsand how to we encourage such behavior in TROS.

Instead of reducing the ATN (or perhaps into addition to), what about increasing the opponent's DTN after certain criteria to reflect the added difficult of suddenly having to defend against a short quick thrust instead of the cuts that have been comeing at you.

Much of the thrusting in pre-C&T swordplay happened in winding and binding situations, which will be covered in depth in TFOB.

Jake

Valamir,

A bit of commentary, as most of what I would have answered has been covered..

Many SCA fighters do not bother with a thrusting tip (padding required for any weapon to be thrust by SCA rules) on their "single swords" or arming swords because it is often times considered less than useful. Also, purely for SCA reasons, it adds weight to the weapon for a rarely used attack. How this is historically significant, I'm not sure, but the rarity of the thrust is reflected here.

Caz,

Wouldn't those variants essentially be covered by the cut-and-thrust sword (for the Arming Sword) and the Bastard sword (for the longsword?)

Muggins mentions that thrusts are rarely an opening attack, but there are notable exceptions which are basically covered by the red-red. I've been shown that a sudden, sharp thrust to the face is often times the quickest way to end a fight if you can act fast enough, but you'd better be ready to miss and react accordingly. Essentially, this is modeled by the bonus to thrusts in red-reds, and by never over-committing your CP to the attack.

Basically, I think the numbers as are encourage realistic choices. Most arming swords and longswords are primarily used to cut, but as there are definitely times when the thrust is the most opportune maneuver, the weapon is capable of that as well.

but as there are definitely times when the thrust is the most opportune maneuver, the weapon is capable of that as well.

we had a number of battles last night and a mate of mine won all of them with an aggressive stance followed by halfswording and a thust to the head with a bastard sword.

Any ideas for combating this... he has a natural cp of 14

I had a similar problem with a friend (doug for those who know him) whom I was trying to get into the game. He'd stack his pool, go aggressive and just chop my head off...every time. There's a few options available.

1) Full Evasion: TN of 4 i think, if you've got enough dice to overcome his possible 14 successes with a full evasion/retreat.
2) Partial Evasion: at TN 7 its comperable to most weapon defensive TNs. It allows you to take initiative as if he'd botched if I recall properly.
3) Counter: each success of the attacker is added to your next attack, this way his 14 dice pool are a threat to him.

there's more ways but if you take defensive stance and try the counter, its going to eventually bite him in the cajones. Also, are you using the optional 2CP penalty to thrusts to the head? or was it 1CP..anyway, it makes sense and can balance that out a bit.

Edge wrote: we had a number of battles last night and a mate of mine won all of them with an aggressive stance followed by halfswording and a thust to the head with a bastard sword.

Any ideas for combating this... he has a natural cp of 14

Yea. What Jake said.
Force a red/red and see what he does.
If he half-swords again and thrusts.. try a beat manouver.
Try a defensive half-sword.
If you use a shield.. try to block him open. OR simultaneously block/strike him.

If characters are more apt for quick kills, hence using their full CP in the first exchange.. institute a rule that says you can no longer use full CP attacks except for in the second exchange. or Declare red/red and strike first with the majority of your CP towards a weak spot on him, i.e. unarmored or poorly armored in respect to the rest of him. To me, this would automatically subtract shock and pain from his attack. Even if it is a split second, I doubt anyone.. if stabbed or hit in the neck(groin, weapon-arm etc) with sufficient force during a simultaneous attack.. will have enough left in them to follow-through on their original attack.

-Ingenious

cheers guys i'll try those tonight and report back :)
Jase you taking notes??

Or, with decent armor, CP and minor accuracy, go agressive red/red with an evasive attack. Say, 8 Evasion / 4 Cut to the neck or hands. That'll raise the opponent's TN to 14 or thereabout while threatening with an unopposed attack to a potentially unarmored location.

Yes.. the red-red is a calculated risk, but if you can get your attack in first (the art of the samurai, remember) you can win. In this case, a thrust is good for gaining an initiative advantage.

Your possible counters are variable based on the style you're fighting.

If using a greatsword or longsword, I might recommend half-swording yourself, then countering with all available dice. Or a thrust of your own, to the upper chest. If he is wearing armor there, you get your +3 damage to help nullify it.

Or you could keep your sword at full length, and do an evasive attack to the arm, getting your +1 CP, and perhaps taking out his arm, preventing him entirely from striking you.

Alternately, there's the beat. From the one time I've crossed swords with Jake (where he beat my sword repeatedly, causing me to repeatedly full evade), I would guess that the beat can be effective against an attack as well, and if successful (ie, your beat successes outnumber his attack successes) then the beaten weapon is unable to be used in the strike, thereby rendering his attack void, and costing him dice the next exchange. It's risky in that if you fail, it would be as though you did not defend at all (because you didn't) and if you do succeed, you've not done any damage directly, but it could be very effective if followed up on immediately, esp. considering that he cannot even full-evade.

Thanks guys some of those helped a bit. The problem with going red/red is that he still beat me to the first attack 9/10 of the time. I proved to him that i still had a chance if i countered and it prob isn't a chance he wants to take in a campaign game.

Umm.. you do use 'buy initiative' when appropriate? I've found that almost nobody in my games dares to strike with all their dice in the first exchange. Why? Because it's so easy for a decent opponent to buy the initiative and take their sword arm off.

So, in the first red/red exchange, both combatants would allocate perhaps half of their dice into attack. The loser of the reflex contest tries to buy initiative. If successful, the now-loser tries to buy it back.

Maneuvers definitely count, and as such, this thing does not ever happen. But the threat of opponent buying the initiative is very real. I'd do it almost every time the opponent strikes with too many dice. And, because of that, they never do :)

Overdrive wrote: Umm.. you do use 'buy initiative' when appropriate? I've found that almost nobody in my games dares to strike with all their dice in the first exchange. Why? Because it's so easy for a decent opponent to buy the initiative and take their sword arm off.

So, in the first red/red exchange, both combatants would allocate perhaps half of their dice into attack. The loser of the reflex contest tries to buy initiative. If successful, the now-loser tries to buy it back.

Maneuvers definitely count, and as such, this thing does not ever happen. But the threat of opponent buying the initiative is very real. I'd do it almost every time the opponent strikes with too many dice. And, because of that, they never do :)

Swords question:

Swords doing a Cut attack(swing), does cutting damage?
and when thrusting it does puncture damage right?

I can find it in the rulebook, so if you can please give me page number.

Bergh,

I don't have the book handy for a page reference, but yes, that's exactly right.

Swings with swords and the like do cutting damage (I-VII)
Thrusts with swords and the like do puncturing damage (VIII-XIV)
Swings with blunt qeapons do bashing damage (I-VII)
Thrusts with blunt weapons do bashing damage also (VIII-XIV)

Brian.

There are situations that occur where your "best strike" (ATN, damage, etc.) may not be the best strike in a given situation. I have sparred in hand-to-hand combat using martial arts, but rarely with weapons.

But I think one thing would be similar - depending on the angle available for attack, or if you or your opponent are in an awkaward position or off-balance, or sometimes just through the exchange of blows or movement an opportunity for a good strike presents itself.

And this may be a thrust or swinging strike to the foot, head or wherever - it is just the most opportune strike that the opponent is least likely to defend.

I wonder if there is a good mechanic to allow this to happen in TROS - where you cannot just choose your power munchkin strike all the time that allows the best ATN and damage.

Turin wrote: I wonder if there is a good mechanic to allow this to happen in TROS - where you cannot just choose your power munchkin strike all the time that allows the best ATN and damage.

Hi

I think the best house rule and most easy to remeber is that if a character does the same attack at the same location twice in a row, the opponent gets a better diff. on his defence rolle.

So i a character whats all the time to attack the head of his enemys, then he must change from swing,thrust,swing.....and so on.

And if he can only swing, then he must change zones all the time.

easy and realistic.

Valamir wrote: Yet in a game where you have the luxury to crunch numbers there seems to be little reason to every thrust in the game with an Arming Sword. 1 lower ATN and 1 lower damage to boot (which seems overkill to me...the 1 lower ATN is already pretty much guarenteeing lower damage anyway).

Sometime you know you will never hurt this damned full chain or plate armor warrior if you cut with your 1 hand sword (bing bing bing grrrrrrr ). So thrust to the face or perhaps to the hand is your friend .Hummmm if he have a full helm and gloves too it's time to run because you need this big claymore you forgotten .

The only thing you could do there is full evade over and over, hope he tires, then try half swording.