I'm fully aware that the Sorcerer rules don't allow the re-Binding of a demon once the initial Binding is done, but there's a concept I'd like to explore in Sorcerer, and wonder how to adjucate it.

Example the first:
A sorcerer summons a demon in the presence of another sorcerer. Both attempt to bind it, fighting a sort of sorcerous duel to gain control of the demon. How would you adjucate this?

Example the second:
A powerful sorcerer attempts to use a lesser sorcerer's weapons against him. That is, the sorcerer tries to wrest the other's demons from him, binding them to himself. I realize this is explicitly not allowed by the rules, but how would you run this, and why isn't it allowed? Do you forsee any narrative or balance problems in this?

Actually, Clinton, both of these are very possible just by using the rules as written. I'm not sure where you get the idea that it's not permitted ... what's not permitted is for the demon to be under two sets of Binding simultaneously.

FIRST EXAMPLE
Seems to me that this is an excellent example of simply rolling for both sorcerers (with the demon rolling in response to each one separately) and, if both are successful, seeing which one gets the most victories. It strikes me as a very important context for considering situational and role-playing bonuses as well. Oh yeah, and clearly, this approach assumes that both rolls are EITHER snap-shots OR long-term, hours-long rituals.

In a complex, group, timed situation, and say we're talking about snap-shots, then the combat sequence rules apply. IE, both sorcerers have announced a Binding attempt as their actions. In this case, it will depend on who rolled the highest value on their dice, because that indicates whose Binding attempt "got there first."

SECOND EXAMPLE
It is possible to Bind one sorcerer's demon away from him. The problem is that the first Binding has to be broken. So if you want, you can consider it one action but with two rolls (or rather, that the second roll may only be attempted if the first succeeds).

Let's break it down. Sebastian has Bound a demon named Yuzzuthug. Bartholemew, the sneak, would very much like to Bind Yuzzuthug. So he has to convince the demon to break its Binding to Sebastian, which would be a ... damn, have to go check the rules, 'cause I don't have the book near to hand. Anyway, whatever they say, the demon has to do that. Now, freed, Yuzzuthug is available to be Bound to Bartholemew and that roll proceeds.

I can imagine many different contexts and conditions in which these two rolls (the breaking one and the Binding one) would be subsumed into a single, closely connected series of actions.

Hope all this helps,

Best,
Ron

Ron -

Definitely helps. I guess what I'm really looking for is some sort of way to make this action-packed. Here's a scene:

Jack Henry, a naive sorcerer and tough-as-fucking-nails P.I., comes across a powerful sorcerer and child abductor. The sorcerer calls on his Parasite demon, and launches it at Jack, the alien thing screaming as it flies down the alley. The demon grabs onto Jack's face and tries to worm its way down his throat: Jack pulls it off and beats it against the ground, screaming, "My way, bitch! My way!"

The demon was bound to the sorcerer, but Jack beats it into submission, and then uses it for his own goals.

Could anything like this be done? And yes, I do read too much Sin City.

Hey,

Sounds like an Inconspicuous rather than Parasite demon to me, but that's a quibble.

Well, now. Such a scene requires some role-playing from the GM regarding the demon in question. Basically, the first question is whether it is even aware that the character is trying to Bind it. Let's say it figures this out (so the example can continue).

So. What's its relationship with the bad-guy sorcerer? Is it really a nice demon who's been forced into hideous servitude by the awful serial-killer sorcer guy? Or is it the awful secret and impetus lying behind the dissolution of this otherwise-normal fellow's mind?

See, the demon may or may not be inclined to rebel against the primary Binding entirely. What then? To make it all Fortune-driven, I might do it this way.

1) Will vs. Will to convince the demon that it might prefer being Bound to a tough guy like the one beating it up. This roll would probably use the Binding strength (regardless of direction) as a modifier to the demon's roll.
2) Demon carries out Binding-breaking attempt (which I still can't remember the rules for, but they're in there).
3) Binding between PI and demon.

In a quick-flash kind of rapid sequence, then, we have three sets of rolls to deal with a very complex bit of actions and reactions. I would think it justified to roll victories from #1 into #2, and from #2 into #3 (assuming success all the way along).

To complicate things further, the other sorcerer might get a chance to counter-roll either the rebellion or the Binding, at the very least to inflict some modifier dice into any of the rolls.

An easy way out, if the GM is happy with this demon being Bound to this bad-guy, is simply to say, "No, it's disinclined to rebel" ipso facto ... I tend to like the Fortune-driven method better, though, as it's consistent with the issues of Sorcerer.

Best,
Ron

P.S. In Sin City, specifically A Dame to Kill For, I see Dwight as a sorcerer and Marv as a demon; Ava as a sorcerer and Manute as a demon (or to be REALLY weird, as the reverse); Miko as a demon as well. This is all in metaphor, of course - in the same sense that Mouse is a demon and Easy Rawlins is a sorcerer in the Walter Mosely novels.