Topic: The Role-Playing Bonus Dice that Ate Manhattan; and more
Started by: zmook
Started on: 2/17/2004
Board: Adept Press
On 2/17/2004 at 3:39pm, zmook wrote:
The Role-Playing Bonus Dice that Ate Manhattan; and more
So, I am gearing up to run my actual first session of Sorcerer tonight (we did character creation last week, mostly).
Of course, I have questions.
First, reading about the game Wushu has made me start wondering about Sorcerer bonus dice. As far as I can see, bonus dice are allowed to stack (+1 for better weapon, +1 for clever tactic, +1 for colourful description, +1 for quip, etc). And the rules do not specify any upper limit on the number of bonuses. Now I appreciate that it will be difficult to keep coming up with new stuff for bonuses when needed, but -- does all this add up to, Sorcerer players can roll as many dice as they want for important actions they care enough about? It looks like it does.
I can see the value of this in some situations, where everyone wants the characters to succeed at a critical juncture. But what about cases where odds are supposed to be stacked against them? How strict are you all about handing out the bonus dice?
In general, how many bonus dice do people hand out for an average combat roll, to take a more routine example?
I'm not so much looking for an Official Answer From Ron (though that's cool too, of course) as collective wisdom of Sorcerer GMs.
Second question: do y'all recommend playing out the binding scene for characters' starting demons, or skipping it and going straight to the kicker? Do you allow role-playing bonuses on the Binding roll?
On 2/17/2004 at 4:32pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: The Role-Playing Bonus Dice that Ate Manhattan; and more
Hello! Well now, let's see ...
does all this add up to, Sorcerer players can roll as many dice as they want for important actions they care enough about? It looks like it does.
Yup - although your phrasing "as they want" is a bit misleading, I think. Usually the group as a whole operates as a critical limit, through approval and disapproval. But that happens after the GM has set some examples.
The initial and as-we-go limits that are set for bonus dice usually don't concern the amount so much as the immediate causes. "Another spinning wheel kick? Oh, come on."
Do bear in mind that [people don't especially like being pressured to provide bonus dice justifications. The point is to provide those dice when justifications show up on their own.]*
I can see the value of this in some situations, where everyone wants the characters to succeed at a critical juncture. But what about cases where odds are supposed to be stacked against them? How strict are you all about handing out the bonus dice?
Whoa. Danger sign. All outcomes in Sorcerer are presumed to be equally desirable, or else you're intruding some story-control into the game that really shouldn't be there.
I strongly recommend losing all GM-tendency to commit to a particular outcome, positive or negative, of any scene or set of dice-rolls.
Also, odds are one thing, outcomes are another. Are the odds against them? No problem - that's just another way to say that they are up against a lot of dice. Their role-playing has the secondary effect of changing the odds, that's all.
If this were to become a strategic GM-vs.-players game-situation, then you'd be playing Donjon. But in Sorcerer, it's not. Never mind about the "right" odds for a situation; instead, present adversity and let the players gain bonus dice as you and they see fit based on your shared enjoyment of what they do.
If they're good at it, then provide huge amounts of adversity - not because you need to "balance" anything, but because great role-playing (and dice) on their part simply obliges you to provide great role-playing (and dice) on yours.
In general, how many bonus dice do people hand out for an average combat roll, to take a more routine example?
The range is about zero to four, and the term "average" is ill-suited. You could calculate an average, but it wouldn't mean anything as a value.
The key to the role-playing bonus dice is that if the person has to sit and try to come up with something, he or she has already lost that bonus. Those dice are for things which unexpectedly get everyone juiced up, not for some kind of "imagine something cool, go ahead, try, try" effort.
Second question: do y'all recommend playing out the binding scene for characters' starting demons, or skipping it and going straight to the kicker? Do you allow role-playing bonuses on the Binding roll?
I do not recommend playing the Binding scene, because play should really start during or just after the Kicker. People tend to diminish the Kicker's importance otherwise. However, I do think that a pretty good set of imagery and a very firm idea of the commitments involved are important for that first Binding. Typically I don't give bonus dice for them, though - although for all Bindings after that, absolutely yes.
Best,
Ron
* edited in - I'd forgotten to complete this thought for the first post.
On 2/17/2004 at 6:36pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: The Role-Playing Bonus Dice that Ate Manhattan; and more
I strongly recommend losing all GM-tendency to commit to a particular outcome, positive or negative, of any scene or set of dice-rolls.
Also, odds are one thing, outcomes are another. Are the odds against them? No problem - that's just another way to say that they are up against a lot of dice. Their role-playing has the secondary effect of changing the odds, that's all.
That's key. When C3P0 told Han about the odds of successfully negotiating an asteroid field, did anyone really think the Falcon was about to crash? Of course not.
The situation may be narrated "impossible odd, no escape for you, you'll never make it." but this in no way means the dice on the table have to be 4 for the player 12 against.
Its entirely possible (indeed, desireable) to have the reverse be true. In narrative terms there is no possible way...according to the dice on the table, however, the odds are actually pretty good...because of all of the clever uses of extra dice rolled over from previous rolls and RP bonuses.
The narrative situation describes the odds as they "should be". The dice on the table describe the odds as they are and there is no requirement that these be the same.
On 2/18/2004 at 4:07am, zmook wrote:
RE: The Role-Playing Bonus Dice that Ate Manhattan; and more
Ron Edwards wrote: Do bear in mind that people don't especially like being pressured to provide bonus dice justifications. The point is to provide those dice when justifications show up on their own.
Aha! That helps. I had been thinking Gamist, I suppose: "I need two more bonus dice, so a quip and a nice bit of setting should work -- 6 to 3, I can live with those odds." Wrong.
I suspect my players have similar instincts, and so am a little worried about adjudicating "begging for dice", but we'll see. No combat came up in the first session, and what perception and influence rolls we did do were already way skewed towards the sorcerers, so there wasn't much pressure. (I did end up handing out a couple bonus dice in the starting-demon binding scenes, because the players started describing them and it seemed counterproductive to discourage them.)
Thanks,
On 2/18/2004 at 5:14am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: The Role-Playing Bonus Dice that Ate Manhattan; and more
Hi Colin,
I did end up handing out a couple bonus dice in the starting-demon binding scenes, because the players started describing them and it seemed counterproductive to discourage them.
That makes sense, and seems like a good decision on your part.
Also, regarding dice-begging, I think the best way to handle it might be to say, "Don't beg," when someone does it, yet be very generous when the role-playing behavior pops up. That takes a little observation self-training ... I'm remembering an exceptional demo run in Florida, in the early days, when a player performed a great hand-gesture when commanding a demon, and it took me a moment (fortunately I realized before he rolled) that this was worth a bonus die.
"Hey," I thought. "I wonder how much of that I've been missing? I'll have to watch for that sort of thing from now on."
Best,
Ron
On 2/18/2004 at 7:14pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Role-Playing Bonus Dice that Ate Manhattan; and more
Is there a difference between Begging and Nudging? I've frequently said to a Sorcerer GM (even Ron, IIRC), "Huh, huh? How was that? C'mon, worth a die maybe?"
I think that there's an appropriate form of social pressure that can be applied. Maybe I'm wrong, tho. It seems to me that you should reward whatever you like to see, however. So, if the players are adding comments in a gamist manner, then don't reward it. For example, if you see, "Oh, yeah, and I use some blood in the ritual." That sort of add-on that you can tell the player isn't intending to really be something to add to the feel of the game, but just to get the die.
Because, if they're pausing just to actually make things cooler, then I think I would give the die. To get really GNSish, yes, this could be congruent GN play in this case. But who cares as long as its N? In layman's terms, basically it's a judgement call that has no criteria except what is cool to the GM.
What's defintitely true, however, is that the bonuses are not for things that "would give bonuses". This isn't a method of simulating anyting. So there can be no arguments that "My gun is bigger, therefore it would get an extra die." Instead you have to describe the gun's effectiveness in a cool way to get the dice.
Mike
On 2/18/2004 at 7:31pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: The Role-Playing Bonus Dice that Ate Manhattan; and more
Hi Mike,
I think the Begging vs. Nudging issue is easy to recognize, and it's perfectly all right if different GMs have different standards. So identifying some precise cutoff isn't necessary.
Best,
Ron
On 2/18/2004 at 9:59pm, zmook wrote:
RE: The Role-Playing Bonus Dice that Ate Manhattan; and more
Mike Holmes wrote: What's defintitely true, however, is that the bonuses are not for things that "would give bonuses". This isn't a method of simulating anyting. So there can be no arguments that "My gun is bigger, therefore it would get an extra die." Instead you have to describe the gun's effectiveness in a cool way to get the dice.
Why's that definitely true? Even in the movies sometimes you want a Bigger Gun. ("We need guns. Lots of them.")
It seems more likely to come up in hand-to-hand combat, but it seems perfectly reasonable to me to hand an extra die to the guy with the better weapon.
On 2/18/2004 at 10:41pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Role-Playing Bonus Dice that Ate Manhattan; and more
zmook wrote:Sure, but only if it comes up in play. The bonus is not to simulate anything. But, sure, if a player describes their gun in a way that makes it cooler than the other guns present, then yes the player gets a bonus. But they have to describe it. It's called "role-playing" bonuses because they're for good descriptions that get everybody feeling the action. They do not exists to simulate "realistic" or even "cinematic" advantages. They are to reward player behavior.
It seems more likely to come up in hand-to-hand combat, but it seems perfectly reasonable to me to hand an extra die to the guy with the better weapon.
Mike