Topic: Experimental Mechanic: Skill Check (edited for clarity)
Started by: Tonic
Started on: 2/18/2004
Board: Indie Game Design
On 2/18/2004 at 2:02am, Tonic wrote:
Experimental Mechanic: Skill Check (edited for clarity)
This is a check to see how well a character can perform an action. What makes this different from most systems is that the difficulty of the check is relative to the skill of the character. As the skill of a character increases, tasks that remain at the same objective difficulty become less difficult. The objective difficulty serves as a baseline difficulty for a task, with the character rolling on a more personal relative difficulty. Two characters with different level skills attempting the same task -with the same objective difficulty- would have different relative difficulties.
Steps:
1. Determine objective difficulty: Define skill needed to have a 50/50 chance of success/failure. This is the objective difficulty of the task.
2. Extrapolate relative difficulty: Subtract character's relevant skill from objective difficulty. Add this number to fifty (50). This is the relative difficulty and target number.
3. Roll percentile dice: Either 2d10 or 1d100. If you roll over the target number (relative difficulty), you succeed your skill check. If you roll under, you fail your skill check.
Example:
Jim wants to shoot a bow and hit a tree 30 meters away. The Gamemaster determines that the objective difficulty for this task is 60. Jim's ' archery' is rated at 40. In order to determine his relative difficulty, Jim subtracts his skill from the objective difficulty and arrives at 40 (60-40=20). He adds this number to 50 and arrives at 70 (20+50=70). Jim rolls a 75 on his percentile dice. Somewhere in the recesses of his primitive monkey brain, his unconscious mind is thinking something like: 'last time I shot this bow, I pulled my muscles in a certain way. I kind of remember most of what I did, but I'm going to fill in the blanks of my memory with some innovation.' He draws back the bow in a similiar but slightly different, though largely indistiguishable way.
Suppose, though, that Jim rolled an 65 and failed his skill check. He would think that same thoughts as above, but the minor innovations he would choose would cause him to fail the task.
On 2/18/2004 at 2:17am, timfire wrote:
RE: Experimental Mechanic: Skill Check (edited for clarity)
You know, if just added 50 to the relative difficulty, and added your skill directly to the roll you would get the same result but with less math.
Difficulty: 120 (instead of 70)
Skill:30
Roll d% + skill. You still need to roll 90, but now you get it in 3 steps (roll, add, compare) instead of 4 (subtract, add, roll, compare).
I mean, is there some reason for all this math I'm not seeing?
On 2/18/2004 at 2:32am, Nathan P. wrote:
Re: Experimental Mechanic: Skill Check
Tonic wrote: On Resolution: So if this isn't a task resolution mechanic, what does succeeding or failing a skill check even mean? If the character succeeds, it means that he is able to summon into his mind a precise formula for thinking or acting that will result in success as the character believes success is to be achieved.
General feedback welcome. Most of the people I explain this to just say something profound like 'Hmmm'.
Hmmm.
Am I reading you right: This is a mechanic to determine whether a character thinks that they can do something. If they succeed, they figure "Yeh, I can do that, no prob." If they fail, does that mean that they think "Wow, I'd better not do that!"?
It seems implied that a character has to succeed on this roll before they can attempt actual task resolution - by corollary, if he doesn't think he can lift the rock, he figures he shouldnt even try. Is this right?
And my next question would be, whats the use of deciding whether a character thinks he can do something, as opposed to determining whether he actually can or not? (Unless the game is based on what you think you can do, you can do, and what you think you can't, you can't). I think it would drive me crazy as a player to be told "Well, theres a big rock in your way, but you failed your roll, so you think you can't do it. Sorry."
If I'm misreading you, please correct me, but I am indeedy confused.
Thank you for your time,
Nathan P.
On 2/18/2004 at 3:16am, Tonic wrote:
RE: Experimental Mechanic: Skill Check (edited for clarity)
timfire wrote: You know, if just added 50 to the relative difficulty, and added your skill directly to the roll you would get the same result but with less math.
Difficulty: 120 (instead of 70)
Skill:30
Roll d% + skill. You still need to roll 90, but now you get it in 3 steps (roll, add, compare) instead of 4 (subtract, add, roll, compare).
I mean, is there some reason for all this math I'm not seeing?
Mostly my slow descent into madness.
Did you mean objective difficulty? Also, how did you determine what you needed to roll (90) from your new difficulty (120)?
I'm working from this angle: All things being equal, two opposing forces would have a 50/50% chance of success/failure for either. So if there's a difference in the difficulty vs the skill of the character (two opposing forces), you find the difference and apply it to the ratio.
Nathan P. wrote: Am I reading you right: This is a mechanic to determine whether a character thinks that they can do something. If they succeed, they figure "Yeh, I can do that, no prob." If they fail, does that mean that they think "Wow, I'd better not do that!"?
Sorry for not being a little more clear. This thing is a bit contrived and ethereal.
It's a mechanic for determining for how the character decides to assert his skill. If you think about how you go about applying your skills to the everyday world, you sort of recall what you have to do before you do it. This mechanic simulates that. So if the character fails the check, he recalls false information or makes up something he thinks sounds right. To further confound things, this is all happening in the blink of an eye, and the 'deciding how to do something' part concerns the most delicate of motor manipulations that are mostly unnoticeableto our conscious minds. It simulates how we do things differently every time we do them, especially when we're first learning something. In the example given above, Jim might have shifted his body weight incorrectly when trying to pick up the rock, or been generally inefficient about picking up the rock.
On 2/18/2004 at 4:28am, SpoDaddy wrote:
RE: Experimental Mechanic: Skill Check (edited for clarity)
Almost all roll over systems take relative difficulty into account. Think about it: if the difficulty is 10, and 2 different people are attempting the task (one by rolling 1d20 and adding a skill of 5, the other by adding a skill of 1) the person with the 5 skill has an easier time accomplishing the exact same task.
On 2/18/2004 at 4:45am, Tonic wrote:
RE: Experimental Mechanic: Skill Check (edited for clarity)
SpoDaddy wrote: Almost all roll over systems take relative difficulty into account. Think about it: if the difficulty is 10, and 2 different people are attempting the task (one by rolling 1d20 and adding a skill of 5, the other by adding a skill of 1) the person with the 5 skill has an easier time accomplishing the exact same task.
Ah, I see. That gives me some perspective.
On 2/18/2004 at 5:02am, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Experimental Mechanic: Skill Check (edited for clarity)
Tonic, unless you are intending this as the core mechanic of some game, this is a Theory thread (in which case, no harm, a moderator will move it). If you are intending this to be the core of a game, then I'd like to know more about the game, and why you are taking this seemingly convoluted approach; is it important to the game in one way or another that you explain the mechanic in just such a manner?
On 2/18/2004 at 1:11pm, Kryyst wrote:
Re: Experimental Mechanic: Skill Check (edited for clarity)
Tonic wrote: This is a check to see how well a character can perform an action. What makes this different from most systems is that the difficulty of the check is relative to the skill of the character. As the skill of a character increases, tasks that remain at the same objective difficulty become less difficult. The objective difficulty serves as a baseline difficulty for a task, with the character rolling on a more personal relative difficulty. Two characters with different level skills attempting the same task -with the same objective difficulty- would have different relative difficulties.
Ok so other then your slightly circular description of it I'd say this is exactly the way almost every system works.
You have a skill level and a difficulty level. As a players skill level increase he is more competent at succeeding at given difficulty level. Even if the difficulty is fixed the relative difficulty between two people is still different because of their skill level.
For example D20 A has skill X at + 6 B has Skill X at + 2 the difficulty is 15 so that means A's relative difficulty is 9 and B's relative difficulty is 13. This holds true for any system be it based on successes or target numbers or percentiles.
So really you've got nothing new here.
On 2/18/2004 at 4:43pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Experimental Mechanic: Skill Check (edited for clarity)
Hello,
Discussion on this thread should stop until Tonic lets us know whether an actual game is being designed. Then either it will continue here (if the answer is yes) or get moved to RPG Theory (if the answer is no).
Best,
Ron