I was wondering, how would you guys explain the power of premonition, and that of instant teleportation according to Sorcerer rules? Hint and Travel don't seem to quite cut it...am I wrong?

I'm kicking this idea of a Sorcerer/Dune crossover, with Mentats or Navigators having through their training unleashed a Possessor or Parasite version of their former self-as-demon, giving them the powers shown in the novels...Paul of course is wrestling with the baddest demon of all =) Spice could even be a parasite form of demon-stuff. The Bene Gesserit drive for genetic manipulation is obviously a sign of their demons' Need or Desire. The Weirding Way itself seems like an array of subtle demonic abilities. And so on. I have tons of ideas, but am afraid I might have to break apart the elegant Sorcerer system to make it fit the setting (which might be an alternate Dune, after all).

Thanks for any comments.

Hi Manu,

I regret the negativity of this reply, but, well, I don't get it.

Why in the world would one use the Sorcerer rules for a Dune or Dune-like setting? The entire "point" is off. One's ambitions and faith, in Dune, are entirely one's own, and there are no entities, even semi-metaphorical ones, with whom to bargain or interact for power.

Dune's setting has much in common with the adventure science fiction of the 1940s, like Henry Kuttner or "Doc" Smith (or am I mixing him up with A.E. Van Vogt again; I always confuse those two). The ESP-style mind abilities, as best expressed in Alfred Bester's fiction, are considered trained physiological phenomena, much like one's fighting ability or competence with a pistol. They add to the exoticism of a setting or serve as rather gross plot devices, but they do not themselves represent a moral crisis.

Dune adds a semi-incoherent 60s tweak on this classic mode by introducing ecology, hallucinogenic drugs, and a lot of "you are the messiah" fulfilment-fantasy.

(Mind you, I'm going by the first novel only because I regard all the others as unreadable. I got through the next two books, and I'll never get those hours back. The later books remain unknown to me.)

Also, the system for the game is not intended to be applicable to anything and everything. Instantaneous teleportation and reliable prescience share a certain "handy" quality that is not consistent with the entire concept of demon abilities in Sorcerer.

(Side note: in terms of pure ability, combining Perception with Travel, both conferred to a person, generates an effect much like teleportation. It is neither instantaneous nor reliable.)

So I guess I'm just puzzled. One of the following situations must apply.

1) If the setting is the priority, then you are of course welcome to use or tweak any game system you like to role-play with that setting. I suggest that Sorcerer's system would be badly whacked out of true in the Dune-like setting - that is, various interacting variables are going to be much less or more important to one another than they are in the system as written. That's not a sin or anything; as I say, your use of the tools is your own.

2) If the system (and by extension the premise it reinforces) is the priority, then I think that the Dune setting will have to get seriously whacked out of true in order to support that premise, to the extent of losing its Dune-ness and becoming "desert SF Sorcerer" on its own.

I imagine this post will generate cries of resentment and plenty of examples of how the Sorcerer rules may be adapted to Dune. That's fine too. None of this post is to be taken as a directive or rules-guru pronouncement.

Best,
Ron

Ron,

You are apparently not a big fan of the Dune setting to begin with :smile:

I think you didn't get my intent, which is to *transform* the Dune assumptions to make them fit Sorcerer, because I think, and we obviously don't agree, that changing the themes of Dune would yield an interesting result without destroying the setting parameters.

Besides, you might have overlooked several important points in Dune (If you didn't get into the latter novels, it's quite understandable); there IS actually an "entity", as religion plays a major role in Dune (remember the Orange Catholic Bible? and the Missionaria Protectiva?). Once Paul becomes the Kwizatz Haderach, his very essence, demonic of course, could channel demonic powers for many sorcerers (all in a very Dunesque fashion, of course...subtlety is the key, here).As far as bargaining for power, that's where my idea of a shadow-self demon comes in; and there we have the Sorcerer question of man's ambition and definition, just like some factions in Dune are struggling to define themselves, sometimes as beyond human. I have this thing inside me that makes me think at the speed of a computer, or fold space at will; what urges does it awaken in me? what is the ultimate price I'll pay for these powers? Those very powers I use for my fellow humans beings will very soon acquire a life of their own, and much more egoistical goals; What will I become after a while if I start catering to these newly found needs and desires? are they really mine after all?

The very fact that humans now take the role of machines and have maintained this status quo for ten thousand years is a huge moral crisis in a sense, although maybe not one that is felt individually at first. Dune is a world of slowly unfolding plans within plans, wheels within wheels...a bit like demons might live within humans.

I asked about teleportation for instance, because it is everything but "handy" in Dune...it involves radically transformed ex-human beings, and large scale travel. Is the price paid by navigators worth it? it isn't that different from the questions that riddle the sorcerer...these "sorcerers" went FAR to get what they wanted (power, mostly, of course).But that doesn't mean players have to take the same path.


So I guess I don't really understand the violence of your reply...It's just some weird crossover idea, fer cryin out loud! Not anymore more ridiculous than Anime sorcerer :wink:

But I'll take your answer to my basic question as "no"; Fine, I asked for opinions after all :smile:

Cheers,
Manu

Hey Manu,

No flame or thread-stopper was intended, and if the topic brings in tons of suggestions, then all to the better.

Also, my negative response isn't based on any (presumed) dislike of the setting. I'm strictly concerned with theme and "fit." I do agree with you that Dune, when coherent, addresses the prices and consequences of taking power upon oneself, and that the whole Ends/Means issue is the issue at stake.

It still strikes me that the Dune(-ish) setting requires a lot more tweaking to get Sorcerer-like than, say, the degree that Jared needed for the Cronenberg-style Sorcerer in Schism. Who knows, though? I am not the only voice. If others have some notions that clicks the system and setting together better, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

Best,
Ron

Haha! Say me name two more times and I show up under your bed!

Speaking of Schism, it does deal with ESP and teleportation. It's still the low, low price of $6.95 and our operators are standing by...

- J

The key concept of Dune [all 6 of it] is destiny. It is all about the fact that these things are ordained, that THIS IS THE WAY THAT THINGS WILL HAPPEN, but at the same time, prophecy was also often wrong. Of course, that's just my reading, but that's it.

Sorceror and Dune, are, to my mind, not too incompatible, but the idea of bargaining is strange. It's not that Paul talks and bargains with some aspect of himself, it's that he makes a pact with history. He is the Kwisatz Haderach, but it isn't meant to be him. He is meant to be the father.

Actually, I'm now going to digress by asking if you've seen Jodorowski's Metabarons? It covers a lot of what Dune does, but in a way that makes it French and pretty. Anyway.

That's what I think. There you go.

"Pacting with history"

That gives me a crazy idea...a Sorc. game where demons are defined as things like that: forces of the universe (history, time, good, evil, truth, terror, justice, beauty, decption...I dunno, not a very good list off-the-cuff. Anyone think of better ones, along the lines of history? Hrm...Destiny, fate? Culture? Society?..well, things LIKE history, factual but nebulous)

Must be two damn early in the morning.

Well, to reflect Dune properly your 'daemons' would have to be things like History and Fate, but, at the same time, you would have entities like 'Kwisatz Haderach' that were accessible to select groups, either because of the ties available to them.

Paul and Leto III had the power to access their male ancestral memories, Paul became the Prophet, wandering in from the desert, and Leto bartered his normal existence to make a skin out of sandworm spawn, Arrakis then Rakis flourished, and when he died all spice was gone. Sort of. It gets a little complicated, and it's been about a year since I last read it. Anyway, I digress. There are vast bargains made in the Dune series, and Sorceror covers that sort of thing quite well. You have to change what the things you bargain with are, but that's it. What I'm confused about is why teleportation and prescience are needed in a Dune game.

I think that the Guild Navigators just use Travel, but the target is not themselves but the Heighliner that they are in, and that there is no prescience in Dune, just lots of prophecy. 'Course if'n you wanna have prescience I recommend either of the systems mentioned in recent rpg.net columns [I forget who by, but I remember being surprisingly impressed] where players could ask people what their intentions were [great for LARP], or 'rewind' combat having seen what's going on.

That gets you onto uses of Prophecy [big P!] in games, which is probably a big old RPG Theory topic, one which I think Ron with his occasional GNS evangalism :smile: will want to stick his oar in. On you go. Go on.

Of course, in a Dune game, you've also got to deal with the weirdness engendered by the field technology. It rewards planning and skill, which Sorceror covers [because Ron made such a good job (this is degenerating into ego stroking, sorry)] but, ultimately, if you're going to do this sort of thing you had best reflect the setting, and Dune is a little big to fuss with.

I might share the hell of trying to get a Dune LARP done in Actual Play, but since it didn't happen I'm not sure that's allowed. Still, it's a warning. In Sorceror you've got a great way to get things done, and in Dune you've a great place to do it, but, like Ron, I'm not sure that they belong together in this project. After all, there are two Dune RPGs, maybe more if you count net projects. Go have a look. Right, now I think I'm done.

If you are trying to nail the thematic elements of Dune (i.e. fanatic=bad), then you can, by all means, utilize Sorcerer effectively. Likewise, having a high price for power is also very good for fitting Sorcerer to.

I agree with Raven, that a true 'porting of Dune to Sorcerer is hard, mainly because the equipment and tech of Sorcerer is specifically created with the intention of being "background noise". (Meaning, nobody really cares what gun you have... unless it is an object demon)

However, the whole, are we men or gods question of Dune, and the use of SOrcerer would fit wonderfully, in my opinion. I tried to utilize a bit of the hard-edged, not-your-world pain of gaining power in Hellbound (which, by the way, is NOT Dune-based or similarly done... more Kafka). However, you could do well with it, I think. I know Ron has a great distaste for Dune (though I keep telling him that Chapterhouse is actually a good read), however, if you can pull it off, he won't be displeased.

I would say give it a whirl. If you can make it go, then I'd play it. However, I would think that some of the Dune-ishness has to, necessarily, drop away to expose more the conflict elements of the series, rather than setting themes. Man vs. ????

Anyway, my two cents. Take them and run.


Dav

Without addressing the game issue, I'd agree with Dav and say that Chapterhouse and Heretics are indeed good reads. I didn't care for the other books following the original.

Best,

Blake

OK, no big surprise, Dune is very close to my heart. I like all the books, every one of them, as much as anything else I've ever read. Trying to nail down a single theme or Premis in Dune is folly. Dune is about religion, power, authority, fame, worship, plans, deciet, ecology, evolution, the mind, the nature of time and space; and more importantly how all these things relate to each other.

OK, I'm a raving fanboy. So.

Anyhow, I think that you might be able to apply Sorcerer to Dune, but I'd agree with Ron that the tight premise of the Sorcerer design gets stretched awfully large to cover things.

Instead of the Sorcerer Premise you need a system that covers, "What will power do to you once you have it?"

Mike

Hey,

"I know Ron has a great distaste for Dune (though I keep telling him that Chapterhouse is actually a good read), however, if you can pull it off, he won't be displeased."

Now waitaminute here ... I have a lot of fondness for the first book despite its ultimate shallowness; it reminds me of the last days of SF decency even as it heralded its subversion by the publishers. I avidly watched the recent TV version.

So - are we going by that first book or by the Chapterhouse & Heretic books? If it's the first alone, then I stand by my former comments (ie the conflicting passions are too centered in "the human" to be easily expressed by Sorcerer rules without tweaking). If it's the latter two, then I haven't the faintest idea.

But let's back WAY up and examine Manu's questions .... I find myself asking, "Why are we bothering to model the Navigators' power," for instance? This is not GURPS. We are not trying to model any and every physical event with a mathematical simulation, but rather trying to identify points of conflict and power-struggle. And in the book as I know it (the first only), the Navigators are bluntly "given." The mechanics of their abilities are totally uninteresting; what matters is that they provide the necessary opportunity for interstellar travel, period. Under no circumstances is the variation or details of a Navigation important to the story. Hence - no need to have rules to deal with it.

What matters instead is the Navigators' need for Spice, which is arguably demonic in nature ... and the same could be said in a different way regarding the ability to summon and control the sandworms. Now THAT would be a much more nuanced and rules-requiring situation, because dealing with these things is a key issue in the book. ... Oh, and Ahlia is very clearly a halfbreed as described in Sorcerer and Sword ...

H'm. All right. Now that I'm out of "simulate that Mentat" or "simulate that Navigator" mode, and now that the demonics are firmly ensconced into their localized applications, this whole thread just coalesced for me.

H'm twice. Keep going, folks. Clearly today I'm the one in the second-to-front row of desks, with knitted brows.

Best,
Ron

Well, if nothing else, Sorcerer certainly fits Emperor Leto. He begins with embryonic sandworms as a form of living armor/exoskeleton/extra muscle layer which slowly merges with him as a symbiont into the sandworm/human thing he later becomes to be the God Emperor of Dune. Parasitic Demons anyone? :smile:
He then clones Duncan Idaho(Passer) for his amusement over and over for a few millenia...

Just a couple of examples that would work from Dune.

Bankuei

Actually, Ron, the navigators do have to pay a price to be able to get people places. They need the spice, and it warps their flesh and their minds.

What spice could do is give people access to internal powers, so, um:

Parasite, need is spice, gives user...

Actually, that's a little odd. Can a parasite bestow an additional cover on the host? Can cover be given? That might be the best way to work it. The bigger the 'bonus', the more spice [for the Kwisatz, Ben Gesserit], to represent race memory.

For navigators, spacial perception [one of the sensey ones] and Travel. Lots and lots of Travel.

Mentats would need something that could cope with them being good at their jobs [cover], but alien and cold [humanity, I suppose]. The need issue's a little odd, there isn't really one from the book, but Lynch's mantra might be quite cool.

The Ben Tleilax are either passers [gholas are created to resemble people, but may rebel like Duncan Idaho eventually does] or hosts to machines that cost them their humanity.

Fanatics don't actually have any power, just lots of will.

Which leaves, um, nothing. Characters who aren't 'sorcerous' are going to get mucked about something chronic. There may be some way to represent fields as 'daemons' too, but then I think you hit an issue where you could be using the same process to describe three or four things that differ too much for that to be the case. Actually, S&S might help with the fighting part, but it still doesn't address the fact that there are going to be characters who don't get stuff.

Unless, and a big one, everybody gets to make deals with 'fate' and 'destiny' [which aren't really the same]. Leto II, Paul's father, barters a little of his soul to get Arrakis, and then holds out [a demonstration of resolve if ever I saw one] to try to kill Baron Harkonnen. Paul's trades are with destiny and spice [His [but not him!] line will produce the Kwisatz Haderach under the Bene Gesserit breeding programme, and he has to drink the water of life and face himself].

I'd have said St. Alia of the Knife was someone who managed a draw with a possessor [maybe a better thing for the Bene Gesserit actually] and then lost in an attempt to bind it again. Ser Harkonnen browbeat the rest of the ancestral memories down, and started to influence Alia as much in her attempts to control him as when he controlled her.

I'm going to go and look at the rules again. The pacting with History thing strikes me as quite cool, and I've an idea or six brewing.

Hmm. All this Dune thinking has made me itch to read it again, but first I must finish LOTR. Now that might be an interesting thing to try...

drew

Okay;

This one strays a bit, and requires a few leaps of intuition to keep pace, but:

The breeding program is nothing more than an extended ritual to bring together separated parts of a universal demon. The spice, as a Need, is fine. (Drugs, where are my drugs?!)

Each family holds a single piece of the overall demon within themselves (it is a parasite). That piece is sentient enough to operate on its own, but Desires to be brought together, and not according to schedule. Thus, the pieces cultivated by the Navigators deal with Travel, Hint, and various Perceptions. The Bene Gesserit holds Command, Hint, Perceptions, Link, etc.

Each family brought into the fold of the DNA pool party increases the power, and the Need for Spice, and the Desire to bring in the rest. Eventually, the fully-formed demon is created (Kwisatz)... it becomes Possessor (as in progressive demon forms, ala Soul)... maybe subsumes its host and becomes Passer.

The entire episode, then, is about the remergence of a demon that was split long ago. Perhaps the databanks on Ix have more information?

In this scenario, then, Alia is not a person who lost a battle to a demon, but a demon that lost a battle to a human in utero. And that human wasn't very nice at all...

We use Spawn for clones. The increase in technology brings humanity back to the brink of when Kwitsatz was split to begin with, and thus back to the ages of darkness and neofeudalism. Therefore, it is the demon that is "good" (in a very relative sense), and humans that are "bad" (again, relatively). Tech=bad, as is the case for any post-industrial sci-fi concept circa 195?-199?. We have conflict, premise, metaplot (which mixes with Sorcerer like Lutherans and Catholics, in my opinion), setting, and more info than you can shake a stick at.

The key, then, as Price and power, and gamble/reward (my own private obsession) are concerned is: who is in control? Are you playing a human Sorcerer bending an internal demon to your whim? Or, are you a demon struggling to bring about your own manifest destiny from within the frame of an aristocratic chemical junkie bent upon hedonistic revolution? It can be a whirlwind of confusion that is or is not resolved, and you can always walk away wondering which half of the person was really in control, if any.

Anyway, that is my quick turnabout in terms of Herbert in the 60's and a Sorcerous application.

Comments? Questions? Prescriptions?

Dav

Hmm. Breeding program as an extended ritual is cool, but [sudden intuitive flash, hang on] the object is not to unite the daemon but to provide a vessel capable of dealing with it.

Paul is a sorceror bred to barter with the same daemon that the Bene Gesserit deal with, Ancestral Memory!

It's a parasite/possessor that bestows cover, and, oh dear. We've forgotten something. How the hell do we cope with The Voice? Mind control in Sorceror?

Then there's the pain box. Characters are going to have a minimum will if they're going to face the Gom Jabbar. Or being damn lucky.

So, there's a daemon for the Bene Gesserit and the Kwisatz Haderach, and Alia's age means that, as a possessor, it wins, sort of.

Mentats? It's more cover, I think, and the ritual is the training, and the need is a Lynchian mantra.

Bene Tleilax as possessors/passers is good, especially for ghola, and Navigators, well, somehow Navigators get Travel and, you're right Hint fits better. Maybe some sort of deal with a different part of ancestry? Instinct?

What if that's the actual form? Ancestry? So much of Dune is built around heritage and prophecy, so if they're dealing with Ancestral Memory [Bene Gesserit/Kwisatz Haderach, bestowing Cover in the form of Knowledge and The Voice], Ancestral Intellect [Mentats, bestowing Cover in the form of calculating power], Ancestral Instinct [Navigators, giving them Travel and Hint], and Ancestral Strengths [Bene Tleilax, bestowing Force-y type things].

Throw in something where the GM actually maps out the game in advance [there is already a story, but it's how it happens that makes the game], and players can barter with History and Fate at some ridiculous disadvantage [roleplaying bonuses and massive 'rituals' here] to make things happen in a way that's more to their advantage.

How does that sit?

"Throw in something where the GM actually maps out the game in advance [there is already a story, but it's how it happens that makes the game], and players can barter with History and Fate at some ridiculous disadvantage [roleplaying bonuses and massive 'rituals' here] to make things happen in a way that's more to their advantage."

This sounds great. I think you have nailed down the corners on this one without too much trouble.

Regarding the Voice, let us look at it as such (and here, Lynch actually gives us a helping hand): Command allows control over nonhuman creatures (animals). Those who have not passed the tests of the Bene Gesserit (perhaps an altered "binding" ritual against ancestral memory (ah, the first meme demon type)) are "less than human", and thus, sceceptible to Command as written in the game.

We need to define Humanity in these terms then, which to me would be a mixture of duty (to family, house, sect,etc), knowledge (ah, tie it to Lore as a capping influence if it were to be a minisupplement), and just a hint of compassion. The true test of Humanity is being capable of balancing the entire sphere of influences to become "functional" (I use this loosely). Alia definitely fails, while Paul succeeds rather well (for a time). The epitome of Humanity, then, in Dune would be Chani (to my mind), or perhaps the Princess...

I agree that mentats and some of the more peripheral professions and characters are best described by Cover.

Wow, it WILL work...

Dav

I think so too :smile:

Humanity as a form of duty is lovely, and everything else fits too. I'm not sure how to cap it with Lore?

Hang on, I'm going to do this from basics.

Will: Test against this to determine how 'Human' you are. This is the test of the Gom Jabbar! It'll give you something else, possibly, in fact, your humanity score. Aha! Characters will do this, and it'll be kept secret. The first 'daemon' you bind is yourself. [Why do I think that that might spark a mini-supplement on it's own?]

Lore: This is a measure of how well you know yourself. High for Bene Gesserits, Tleilaxu, low for Gholas until they are awakened, low for Navigators [They tend to lose, remember, which is why they live in spice clouds - They're ancestral instinct's need must be continually sated if they are to distract it long enough to make use of its powers. That's one of the big secrets! Navigators who lose become something really icky and bad, but I'm not sure what, this is a Dune aspect I hadn't considered until now, but what do massive amounts of spice actually do to the Human body? I digress, but I'll come back to this too.]
Probably reasonably high for Mentats.

Cover: Does what it always does, but Mentats get an additional one? Or a supplement when doing Mentat-y things, so Duncan would likely be Warrior: 4, Mentat: 3, producing Warrior Mentat: 7 where applicable, like analysing someone's fighting styles. The strength of Mentats with professions, for some are only Mentats, is that they can bring the paired one to bear, and then use the successes to really lay smack down, or negotiate like the devil, or somesuch. Neato.

Force: I'm not even sure it's called that. Anyway, the physical one. Pff. It does what it does.

Humanity: What Dav said, with modifiers above. I think it's what you bargain with FATE and PROPHECY with, with successes/failures changing your score as bindings/banishings.

FATE: What will happen to your line, ie, will produce the Kwisatz Haderach [Atreides], will rule Arrakis [Harkonnen], will survive at all costs [Bene Gesserit], the spice flow must continue [Guild], the empire must remain [Emperor], no house may use nuclear weapons upon another [CHOAM]. There are loads. Duncan Idaho's may well be [See that Paul succeeds]. That might be cool.

PROPHECY: What will happen in the story, ie, what the GM [with the players, or without them, or, indeed, with some involvement particularly in creating an initial relationship map that can be manipulated], ie, in Dune anyway, "all" that happens is:

The Kwisatz Haderach arrives.

This is really starting to get nice.

Wow !!! Kudos guys, it's a far cry from what I had envisioned, but it all sounds intriguing. The whole "pact with History"" thing is great, and I'm reminded of "Sorcerers Crusade" theme of Freewill, Fate and Destiny. (Actually the whole Daemon concept from SC is really inspiring for Parasite/Possessor demons).


I don't have much to contribute, I'm still mulling things over, and I have half a dozen other setting ideas I want to develop (yup Ron, working on Muslim Sci Fi and giant battleships ! )


Has anyone here read the Inquestor Chronicles from Somtow Sucharitkul? Great Dune-like far future, very colorfulbwith many parallels to Sorcerer's issues on Humanity and power.I really recommend it if you liked Dune, and even more so if you hated Dune !! (Ron: hint, hint)



Manu

Hi Manu,

Thanks for the reference, which sounds like something to check out.

Sorcerer and Sword offers rules for using Destiny in a pretty serious way, which could even override or replace the actual "commanding demons" elements of the game. This thread has convinced me that Dune (or a Dune-like setting) would be very functional using Sorcerer, but I think that 'Sword is the way to go.

The role-playing game which has tried hardest, so far, to generate this sort of SF is Fading Suns. I think it's a qualified success, or a close failure, perhaps, mainly because the concept of "character" in that game is modeled on the White Wolf concept, which in turn is pretty much the AD&D concept. We're talking about characters who grapple with Destiny, not about characters who get to go on missions for those who grapple with Destiny. I've tried to provide some steps in that direction in 'Sword.

Best,
Ron

I'm just throwing this on as I wrote it, there might be some things in here that are worth picking over anyway, but the more final forms are at the bottom. I agree with Ron, and I'm going to check out that stuff too. I'm still trying to get my hands on S&S, but hey. Bring on the battleships, I say.

Character creation: All characters are nobles, that is to say that they must first take the test of the Gom Jabbar. You are created as a noble, that is to say that you would look like this:

Stamina: 4 Drugs
Lore: 1
Will: 3
Cover: 4 Harkonnen
Ancestry: Some points. It is a measure of how many ‘useful’ ancestors you have. Ancestry is used when you are trading on the familial name.

Then a test to see what your Humanity score is, against the Gom Jabbar. What then is the measure of the Gom Jabbar? It’s Will Vs. Stamina. The Mind Vs. The Body. Cunning. Very cunning indeed. Cover is the higher of your Stamina and Will, depending on what kind of a noble you are.

Is it unfair to state that failure simply means that you can’t be Bene Gesserit? You already can’t be Bene Gesserit if you are male, so perhaps not. You’ll be testing against a fixed strength Parasite Daemon, that can, perhaps, spawn a temporary Possessor when you use the voice, and said Possessor works against the opponents Humanity. Negative scores, for they are possible, give the Possessor extra dice. The powers bestowed by a Bene Gesserit Daemon are Cover, and Voice [which is a little Possessor Spawn]. What if you test with Lore against your own Will? Your successes are the level of bonus that you can recieve. Minimums?

Hell, actually, failure still bestows a Cover, but it’s one that possesses you. You can attempt to fight it, hell, that’d be cool, but remember that you’d still be fighting death as an Abomination. Worth it for some? The bonuses remain quite low, so they won’t get too high.

The Bene Gesserit’s Ancestral Memory’s Need is to test again and again. The longer you wait to do it, the stronger it gets, or possibly with the amount you use. I think that may well be doable, if hellish. What if that’s the Need for all of them, except Fate/Goal/Destiny which Need to be worked towards, or they’ll get you.

The use of tests against the Self is very interesting. In fact, I like it a lot, but since I haven’t gotten around to getting Schism I don’t know how close this is to the way that works. Still, onwards.

Notwithstanding, you can become a Mentat. The effects of your ancestral intellect will vary, but your Humanity will be affected. It bestows upon you the cover Mentat.
In situations where Mentat knowledge is applicable, combining the cover Mentat with your starting cover is allowable. E.g. Warrior 4, Mentat 3, can in some circumstances, generate Warrior Mentat 7.

You are unlikely to be a Navigator, though there is nothing to stop you from doing so. Be aware though, that Ancestral Instinct stretches far further than Ancestral Memory, so is accordingly more powerful.

The Bene Tleilax, I think test Lore against Stamina to change themselves, with successes/failures modifying their Stamina ‘permanently’.

Okay, from that we’ve covered most things. There are, it would seem, no actual daemons, only aspects of the Self and aspects of History.

All right. That works a bit better now, so let’s actually turn it into a mechanic.

What tests against what?

The Gom Jabbar is the first test. It is your Will vs. your Stamina. It determines your Humanity.

You test against your Humanity. Or rather, with it. So when you test, let’s see. Failures reduce your Humanity, successes, increase it?

Bene Gesserit – Ancestral Memory is a test, with Humanity, of Lore vs. Ancestry. Your successes produce the level of cover that parasite-AM bestows. Failure is the level of cover that a Parasite-AM [Abomination] enjoys. Voice: Keep a point back for use? Or more? Or less? Anyway, it lets you test your Will against theirs, with their Humanity and your Level of Voice mixed in. I think that works. Use a form of Resolve to keep the Abomination at bay. Your Ancestral Memory [your level of extra cover] will test against your Will when you are placed in mortal danger [or situations that could become dangerous]. The Need is to act to the advantage of the Bene Gesserit.

Bene Tleilax – Ancestral Shape is a test, with Humanity, of Lore vs. Stamina. Failure You get to keep some back as Deceit. That lets you scheme like a bitch, with the aid of your Cover. You sneaky monkey faced freak. The Need is to gather new genetic material.

Mentat – Lore vs. Will, with Humanity on top again. Success bestows the cover Mentat. Keep some back as Predict. It, on top of your appropriate Cover, vs. your opponent’s with their Humanity on top again. Add your successes to an action you take against them. When your Ancestral Intellect gives you a big ole’ success it’ll test against you. The Need is to recite the Mantra.

Navigator – Lore vs. Stamina. What you don’t spend on Travel you spend on Hint. Multiple Hints, might be pushing it, but I think it’s justifiable. The Need is Spice.

I'm not sure, but I think now it comes down to:

Fate: What's going to happen to you.
Destiny: What's going to happen.
Goal: What you want to happen.

I'm not sure how to handle these entirely, but if they're daemons that you bargain with for extra dice or something, or that bestow bonuses/favours when it's appropriate. Let's see.

Perhaps these could have 'raw' values that are set at the start of the game. They might be hugely important, or far less so, or with values that are set depending on how close or not you are to meeting them as you have stated them or as they have been stated. I think they test against each other.

Aha!

Paul:

Goal: To be a worthy heir to the Atreides
Fate: To be the Kwisatz Haderach
Destiny: To be the father of the God Emperor Leto II.

The stillsuit scene, where Paul puts it on correctly without knowing, is Fate vs. Goal. which resulted in a tie, so his successes in a Cover: Arrakeen Noble roll strengthened both. Does that make sense?

No it doesn't [edit]. What I meant to say is that your Humanity can be positive or negative, or, indeed, balanced. Humanity is duty/selfishness. Selfish characters may succeed, but are less likely to do so than those who work for the good of others. A key part of the Gom Jabbar "A human would wait in the trap to kill the hunter and eliminate a threat to the race." Positive Humanity adds to your rolls, negative humanity adds to your difficulties.

_________________
"I wouldn't be satisfied with a roleplaying session if I wasn't turned into a turkey or something"

[ This Message was edited by: erithromycin on 2001-12-13 13:33 ]