Topic: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Started by: bergh
Started on: 2/19/2004
Board: RPG Theory
On 2/19/2004 at 12:43pm, bergh wrote:
Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
HEHE, i don't acutally know if this is the right place to write this, but i need info from different systems/RPG world.
More precise on Dwarfs! I need the Maximum age, weight and height standards from these RPG systems.
Warhammer fantasy roleplay
Lord of the Rings RPG
D&D
Hope you will help me!
On 2/19/2004 at 8:08pm, Bankuei wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Hi bergh,
Might I ask how this really helps your game design? I mean, we're asking about a listing of stats that folks have completely made up. It would probably be more helpful for you to figure out exactly what your game goals are, how dwarves fit into that, and what kind of details the players need to know in order to play the game. Otherwise, it's just detail for details sake.
Chris
On 2/19/2004 at 8:43pm, bergh wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Hi
Ive already got bashed by the guy having this forum.
but i can say that i wanna do myown campaign world, and i just was woundering what other "worlds" was thinking.
But please ignore this thread if I've done something wrong
On 2/19/2004 at 8:50pm, Bankuei wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Hi Bergh,
I wasn't trying to bash you, if I came across a bit harsh, I apologize. Instead, I was asking for a bit more focus about what role Dwarves play in your game, and what role having exact stats means? Thinking this way will save you both time and effort, whereas worrying about how other people statted Dwarves may be completely useless for your game.
Chris
On 2/19/2004 at 9:00pm, Doctor Xero wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
I don't know if this helps, but in most folklore, dwarves are half the height of the average female for that society. In some tales, they are the same length as the average female but so bent and doubled-up that they are reduced in height.
Most folktales in which adult heroes encounter dwarves simply describe them as small; I only recall stories in which adult heroines encounter dwarves giving any proportionate height, and it is almost always half the heroine's height. This is usually considered the same height as the average child, so it enables the dwarves to function sometimes as metaphors for evil offspring for adult heroes and heroines in the same way that giants function sometimes as metaphors for evil fathers. It also allows dwarves to interact eye-to-eye with children when they are childknappers or corrupters of the young.
Doctor Xero
On 2/19/2004 at 10:40pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Hiya,
Actually, it would be kind of neat to list out the Dwarf information of this type here in this thread, from a variety of games. Basic descriptive comparison - not a bad method for a theory thread to see whether interesting questions emerge.
I'm not next to my game library right now and my time is limited, so can some other people start off? Just name the game and list the information that was requested.
Best,
Ron
On 2/19/2004 at 11:09pm, anonymouse wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
D&D3E: Maximum age is (250 + 2d%) something around 500 years old. Height tops out at 4'5", and weight at 226lbs.
Shadowrun 2E: no maximums are given, but average is 1.2 meters tall and 54 kilograms.
I don't have the other two on your list, so someone else'll have to pipe up on those.
On 2/20/2004 at 12:04am, Thuringwaethiel wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
If someone cares: Dwarves of Middle-Earth RPG (old version, and translated, too)
Lifespan 200 to 400 years
Height 4' to 5'
Weight not given, but the "half-dwarves" are same height and their males average 150 lbs, females 130 lbs.
Other: these dwarves do not have IR vision, but see in dark anyways; in poor light 20 yards without penalty, 40 yards with some difficulties, and even 3 yards in total (natural) darkness. High bonus against both cold and heat attacks, heavy penalty to swimming.
On 2/20/2004 at 4:01am, Simon W wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Lord of the Rings RPG (Decipher)
Age tops out at around 300, but 240 seems more the norm.
Height of about 5' is tops.
Weight - dunno, can't find any reference to it
Simon
On 2/20/2004 at 4:24am, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
O.K., Data.
The OAD&D DMG gives these numbers for Dwarf (D), Mountain Dwarf (M) and, for reference' sake, Human (H):
Young adult 35-50 D, 40-60 M, 14-20 H
Mature 51-150 D, 61-175 M, 21-40 H
Middle aged 151-250 D, 176-275 M, 41-60 H
Old 251-350 D, 276-400 M, 61-90 H
Venerable 351-450 D, 401-525 M, 91-120 H
Dates of death could be higher than the venerable top number by 199 years for dwarfs (i.e., 649 D or 724 M) and as much as 19 years for humans (139).
Dwarf males range from 44 to 54 inches and from 134 to 174 pounds; females from 42 to 50 inches, 104 to 140 pounds. For comparison, human males range 60 to 84 inches, 139 to 235 pounds, females 60 to 74 inches, 100 to 178 pounds. Height and weight are not linked in the rolling scheme.
Information might be different in 1) other versions of D&D; 2) subsequent OAD&D books; or 3) OAD&D monster description listings of dwarfs, but this is the most detailed source for them. (For example, mountain dwarfs are said to be larger than standard dwarfs, but although the DMG gives different age numbers for these two groups, it doesn't give different heights or weights; mountain dwarfs were not a player character race at the time the DMG was published, but were detailed elsewhere later.)
--M. J. Young
--M. J. Young
On 2/20/2004 at 6:48am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Maybe it's just the profession speaking, but I love comparative data like this. What I'm seeing so far - and maybe we should expand it out to include any and all dwarves in RPGs, before I make any real conclusions, is a whole lot of similarity.
I'll betcha that dwarves, across RPGs, are way more homogenous for these variables than elves. I mean, a lot more.
Anyone else think that's interesting? I say we check it out.
Best,
Ron
On 2/20/2004 at 8:22am, coxcomb wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Ron Edwards wrote: I'll betcha that dwarves, across RPGs, are way more homogenous for these variables than elves. I mean, a lot more.
Anyone else think that's interesting? I say we check it out.
That is interesting. It seems like gamers have a pretty standard vision of a Dwarf, but every GM has his own version of elves that is somehow tailored to his preferences.
Anyway here's my contribution:
In GURPS Fantasy first edition ((c)1986)
Height: 1 1/2 feet shorter than a human of equivalent Strength
Weight: 100 lbs. heavier than a human of the same height
Age: Don't begin to age until 200, then they age normally. This is slightly ambiguous in the rules, but I think they are trying to say that 300 is the pretty much the top end.
In Fantasy Hero
In the first edition ((c)1985), Dwarves are said to average between 4 and five feet in height. As for age, it just says that their prime of life can stretch out "hundreds of years".
The third edition ((c)2003), also says 4 - 5 feet tall, and says that their weight is equivalent to that of a similarly sized human. This version is clearer about age--up to 400 years.
On 2/20/2004 at 9:12am, talysman wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
here are my obscure contributions:
Fantasy Wargaming (1982) sets the height of dwarfs as 2/3 human size in their early Teutonic heyday, but shrinking to only a few inches in height by the High Middle Ages. FW tries to look at the myths/fairy tales of dwarfs in a historical manner, but lists them as distinct from elves, trolls, and trows, when in early Norse myth, these things were all the same thing.
The Fantasy Trip states that dwarves (with the Tolkienesque spelling) average less than five feet in height. no weight is given, although I remember the GM Codex listing weights; I don't have it handy, however.
On 2/20/2004 at 12:26pm, Christopher Weeks wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Ayslish Dwarves from TORG are "generally about 1.5 meters high, stockily built, with powerful upper bodies...[and] start adventuring at the age of 75, and can live well past 500."
In Burning Wheel Dwarves appear to be able to start between age 20 and 600. And under the Common Dwarven Trait Stout, it says that "Dwarves are smaller than Men in stature, but they tend to be a bit thicker around the middle, with broader hands, feet and arms."
Chris
On 2/20/2004 at 4:32pm, Ian Charvill wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
WFRP - Height M 4'4" + d10 F 4'2" + d10 (avgs 4'9.5"/4'7.5")
- Age max listed for PC = 195
- weight - not listed - other system considerations would suggest slightly higher than the human average
This is pretty much the limit of the fantasy games on my shelf - Anaxial's Roster doesn't list those kind of stats for Mostali.
On 2/21/2004 at 12:37pm, Gelasma wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
In most games dwarfs are conservative and adhere to their traditions, they aren't known to embrace change. Maybe this influences players (and games designers) to be as conservative in their expectations regarding dwarves. We are more likely to accept variant elves or halflings than variant dwarves, since our imagination of a fantasy race influences our likeliness to accept or create variants. The same with crossbreeding between fantasy races, it's common that elves crossbreed with other races, while dwarves dont crossbreed with humans or even elves - there are no half-dwarves, 'dwelves', 'dwarflings' or 'dworks'.
I encountered this player conservativism when designing my homebrew fanatsy setting - my dwarves
life among humans, they dont wear any heavy armor, great axes or even beards, they dress like humans and freely crossbreed with them, the only thing that differs is that dwarfkin have four fingers only. When I presented this to my players they said "Oh, you destroyed the dwarfes"; I did the same with the elves (elfkin have greenish blood; the human nobles claim that they are of high-elven descent..), the comment was "Oh, nice approach towards mixing up Elves and Humans".
----
Das Schwarze Auge (The Dark Eye)
Height: (128 + 2d6) cm; Weight: (height - 80) kg.
Age: 300-400 year, or even more (i.e. the most-powerful dwarfen druid is about 900 years old)
They have only very few children, twin or quadruple births are usual; only about each fourth child is female, and they are always single births. The dwarfen cavalier who seeks to gain the heart of one of the rare women is a common dwarfen character concept (beside the usual Gimli-like dwarf).
On 2/21/2004 at 4:08pm, Trevis Martin wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Castle Falkenstein notes dwarves as being between 4 ft and 5' 5". No weight is given but they are described as being '...heavy set, withmassive shoulders and huge hands, all of them are nearly as wide as they are tall.' There are no dwarf females. (Dwarfs are originally part of Faerie who traded their faerieness in order to work iron. They breed with Faerie females.)
Average life span is given as 200 years.
regards,
Trevis
On 2/22/2004 at 2:39am, ejh wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
I can't believe Ron hasn't given us T&T stats yet.
I'll have to go look them up.
On 2/22/2004 at 2:57am, ejh wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Dang, the copy of T&T I grabbed is missing the height/weight section, and I'm not digging through my books again for a good copy at this time of night. I think that Dwarves were 1/2 human height but I could be wrong.
I do have aging information: like T&T elves, they start as adventurers at 3d6+50 years old, and "they aren't really getting old till they hit 200."
In the Arduin Adventure (1980), Dwarves are "3'5" to 5' tall" "100 to 190 pounds" and are "very long-lived (500 or more years)".
In Runequest (Chaoisum's old edition; my book is copyright 1978-1980) they have a SIZ of 2d6, while normal humans have 3D6. SIZ is a combination of height and weight though, so it's kind of ambiguous what a 2D6 SIZ adds up to. Their longevity is not mentioned.
On 2/23/2004 at 11:55am, contracycle wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
I can't believe Ron hasn't given us T&T stats yet.
That presumably because Ron's GM won't let him roll his Research pool 'till he drives to his Chantry and accesses his 4pt Library.
I just want to mentione one interesting (to me) convention which is allowing dwarves to use gunpowder. Dwarves presumably by extension from the their traditional Forge skills (origin, north european IIRC) often have the highest technology going in the setting. Whic is interestingly at odds with their other trad role as traditionalists.
On 2/23/2004 at 1:01pm, Thuringwaethiel wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
contracycle wrote: I just want to mention one interesting (to me) convention which is allowing dwarves to use gunpowder. Dwarves presumably by extension from the their traditional Forge skills (origin, north european IIRC) often have the highest technology going in the setting. Whic is interestingly at odds with their other trad role as traditionalists.
Tolkien does it differently; in M-E the complex machinery and explosives are in general an 'orc thing', sometimes provided to them by innovative but less nice geniuses (Saruman for one). One exception is the fireworks of Gandalf, indicating maybe that gunpowder is all well for fun, but evil in warfare. Something like that..
But in general, yes, "conservative gunpowder" is quite confusing phenomena. Of course, the history of explosives is quite interesting by its own. There was the "greek fire", still a secret unfolded. Then the chinese came up with gunpowder, but didn't develop the warfare applications past a simple grenade. The arab merchants bought the secret, and just sold it again. Islamic soldiers used simple firecrackers to scare christian knights and their horses, but the surprise effect weared off soon. Eventually, the europeans came familiar with this strange innovation, and what do you know, soon they figured out a way to stuff it in an iron pipe and kill people far more efficiently than anyone before. Somehow that does not make me feel proud being an european myself.....
But back to dwarves. I'm not very familiar with "non-tolkien" races, but looks like there is some diversity between dwarves of different worlds, regarding technology, origin and society, f ex. However, looking above examples, their appearance seems astonishingly similar, with very little height variance, always bearded, always strong, almost identical lifespan... I can think only one another race that homogenous, namely halflings. If we'd compare elves, orcs or trolls, I guess we'd end up with enormous differences.
On 2/24/2004 at 3:57am, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
It occurred to me earlier today, when my mailbox said there was another post on this thread, that it includes "and small people". Did the original poster want stats on halflings and gnomes? I'm reminded that there are also korokoburu and kender in OAD&D, but I don't think stats are available on these.
Interestingly, in my Multiverser post-fantasy setting Orc Rising, the dwarves are the most advanced technologically, although hard metals and water systems are the extent of their abilities (no explosives yet). I think it's the image of dwarfs working with metals and using tools that makes us think they would be the ones who advance to higher technologies first. Elves develop advanced eco-friendly agriculture, and humans become herders, in this scheme, which seems to fit.
--M. J. Young
On 2/24/2004 at 7:02am, Scourge108 wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
In Tunnels & Trolls, IIRC, Dwarves had 2/3 the height of a human, and 3/4 the weight. T&T taught me fractions.
On 2/24/2004 at 8:10pm, timfire wrote:
RE: Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people!
Gelasma wrote: there are no ... 'dwelves', 'dwarflings' or 'dworks'.
There were in my old homebrew Heartbreaker! I see I'm not the only one with that kind of sense of humor...
BTW, it's interesting that almost all of the dwarves are the same height, but there's a split in how much they weigh. Some have them proportional lighter, but some have them heavier than humans.