Greetings all,

If I may steal some of your time and thoughts, I'd love a little inspiration here. What I'm looking for are suggestions for keeping track of ammunition in a high-action, big-combat, Lots-o-Firearms game. What I'm trying to avoid is heavy-paperwork or any activity which may interrupt the flow of action too much. What I would like is something that feels 'smooth' while assisting to simulate high-action cinema, and still maintaining a sense of 'game play'.

Did any of that make any sense, or was it more like babbling?

Anyway, perhaps I can clarify by presenting the ideas I've had so far.

Beads in bowls. Player puts X beads in a nearby bowl, then takes one at a time out to represent rounds spent. I like it because it's very visual, and gets the added bonus of being tactile. I don't like it because I imagine that there may be alot of reloading going on, and it seems like refilling the bowls might be too much of an interruption in game play.

Numbers on the sheet. The player just uses basic math skills to keep track of how many rounds they have left. It's nice & simple, has pretty much no effect on the flow of the game. The problems I have here is that it's basically boring. No visual, no tactile. And, unless the players use something like a laminated sheet for keeping track, then they wind up erasing through the poor paper in just a handful of combat scenes. If they do use some form of laminate sheet, then the markers we find available tend to make a mess.

Checking off boxes. This is the one I'm leaning towards right now. The players get a little card with a simple picture of their weapon's magazine on it. Super-imposed on the picture are a number of little blocks to check off equal to the maximum number of rounds in the weapon. Faster than math and more visual. The only downside that's really getting to me for this one right now is the amount of prep necessary before the game. The way I'm imagining it, I'd need to make sure that there is a different card to represent every size magazine in the game.

Anyway, I suppose it's not so much of me having a problem with checking off boxes, but more of me trying to see if there's a better way. Or, more accurately, a way that Tastes Great, and is Less Filling.

I appreciate any input & inspiration you may have for me.

-Eric

Hi Eric,

From your post, I get the impression you're going for a cinematic-style guns 'n' action game. If that's so I have to wonder why you want to track ammunition at all. What do you think it'll add to the game that's worth the book-keeping? Isn't the feel of a guns 'n' action film better captured by not having ammo at all?

Heh, I knew a guy who liked to track his ammo with a Pez dispenser. Before every battle he'd systematically load it like he was putting rounds into a clip. He then set the candy next to the miniature he was shooting at. If he hit, he ate the candy. If he missed, he threw it away. He was wierd ;-)

Have you concidered alternatives to tracking each bullet, or is the counting of bullets a desired game activity?

I'd intended to mention this in my original post, but just forgot.

I gave a lot of thought to just not tracking ammo at all. It really is counter productive to the idea of cinematic gunplay. However, as I'm designing this game for a select group of friends to play, I polled them on the idea. The general consensus seems to be that they'd feel like they're getting away with something if the ammo wasn't being kept track of in one form or another.

Perhaps some thoughts on tracking some way to determine when it's time to reload, without the actual paperwork of individual bullets?

[edited for rambling]

Perhaps a roll during every break in a gunfight. If it "fails", you have to take an action "reloading."? Or alternatively, a certain result on any roll (something that could be linked to either success or failure... what's the rest of the system like?)

Ok, cool.

Beads in bowls. Player puts X beads in a nearby bowl, then takes one at a time out to represent rounds spent. I like it because it's very visual, and gets the added bonus of being tactile. I don't like it because I imagine that there may be alot of reloading going on, and it seems like refilling the bowls might be too much of an interruption in game play.

Hello,

Based on my experiences with the game Hong Kong Action Theater and Extreme Vengeance, I suggest this tactic:

A failed roll (a missed shot) indicates the possibility that you have run out of bullets. If you miss, then do some kind of gun-check (another roll, possibly), and if you fail that, then you must re-load.

What if you've just re-loaded, such that having to re-load again seems unlikely? Easy - just interpret the same result as a jam, and thus you must clear the jam.

Best,
Ron

Hmm...

I don't see random reloading being a good thing. I can't imagine any result of the rolls keeping the players happy.

The core of the system mechanic is a dice pool using 10-siders. One rolls a number of dice equal to the character's skill. Skills can be considered to be 'specialized'. When one rolls a specialized skill any 10s that show up are counted as two successes each.

So far, the mechanics are pretty much a ripoff of some of my favorite games. If you looked closely you'd see elements of Shadowrun, White Wolf's Storyteller system, AEG's Legend of the Five Rings, and even a few stolen bits from Burning Wheel.

If anyone would care to look closer at the Frankenstein's monster of a game, then I'd be glad to email it to you (it's about ten pages right now in Microsoft Works).

I'd suggest going with something abstract, but it sounds like an "out of ammo" roll (which I like) wouldn't work for you.

One question that's worth asking is whether you really want to track individual bullets or not. I tend to play out combat rounds as 'exchanges', not single shots. (For instance, I'd be happy with a player describing their attack that round as "I peek over the sofa and fire off a few rounds, then get back down.") If you do that, you might be able to use the beads as an 'ammunition unit' representing several shots, which would prevent you from having to use quite so many beads.

If you wanted to make this sort of system more realistic, simply scale magazines down by some fixed number, so that larger weapons are still reloaded less often.

I admit that if someone wants to gain some benefit by choosing their shots carefully rather than firing like you'd see in a typical action movie, this might not work out the way you'd like. It's typically what I do, though, using Drama with a rough sense of Sim to tell a player it's time to reload if they haven't been tracking it themselves.

I suppose it all depends on what you want to simulate. My modern-day games tend to be pretty cinematic, so I'll handwave ducking behind a pillar to switch magazines. What I am more concerned about is when people start running out of magazines, because then it's time for the soundtrack to pick up as the combatants rush for that loaded pistol sitting in the middle of the room.

Jack,

I like the reverse application of putting the beads into the bowls. The idea of the full tube representing an empty clip is wonderful. *ponderponder* The only problem I forsee right now is coming up with different sizes of tube/bowls.

It is a turn-based combat system, and I'd considered the X-number of turns 'till the gun is empty. However, I'm going with the idea that firearms have three different modes of operation. Single shot, burst fire, and auto fire. Now, I really am trying to attack this from a cinematic point of view, and not let myself get stuck in old ideas of how weapons should work in RPGs, I just happen to like the three different modes. Therefore, if I'm going to go with a counting the rounds instead of bullets mode, then I need to account for these other two forms of fire which use more of the available resources.

Ron,

I like the idea on the surface, but when I get down to it, the mechanic you present has essentially the same flaws as the random roll for running out of ammo. Unless I misunderstand what you're suggesting, then the frequency of jams, mishaps, and empty clips is dependant on either the character's skill or an independant roll. Hmm.... I'm inclined to say that I don't like it... but I'm struggling with defining exactly why I don't like it. I'll ponder over this some more, and get back to you.

-Eric

Hi Eric,

Well, you're gonna have to decide:

a) Track it from in-to-out, in that the number of bullets going into the clip/gun in the first place is the number that can be reliably expected to come out - in which case you'll have to keep track as you go.

Or

b) Dramatize it from out-to-in, in that "running out of bullets" is a relatively unpredictable event which adds tension and adversity to a scene.

Either (b) gets sacrificed to achieve the "in-game causal purity" of (a), or (a) gets sacrificed to achieve the "emotional tension" of (b). But expecting to play (a) in hopes of achieving (b) is going to be fraught with a lot of wasted effort and a lot of mis-matches between the two.

And my call is that you can do (b) with at least a nodding acknowledgment to (a) without getting too hung up about the details - but only if you start and end with (b) as the heart of the system.

Best,
Ron

Ron,

While I agree that some decision will have to be made between A and B, I'm not sure that I have to make it right now. In fact, I think that making that decision before looking at different methods of tracking the ammo would be burning my bridges too early.

From everyone's wonderful input so far, this is what I've come up with.

Each firearm should have some rating which tells the player how likely it is to run out of ammo during the scene. Either by presenting exaclty how many rounds the weapon may hold, or with a more abstract rating.

The determining factor for running short on ammo should not be solely random.

Now, Andrew's idea of abstract 'ammunition units' seems to have a lovely ring to it, and I'm sitting down at my desk right now in an effort to see if I can find a home for that idea in my game. If I do, I'll let you all know when I do. Untill then, I'll still be greatful for any futher inspiration you may have to offer.

-Eric

Hi Eric,

I'm a pretty tactile guy, and the idea of beads in a bowl really appeals to me. Perhaps you can apply the mechanic in a HeroQuest/Action Point sort of fashion, where "bullets" are literally bullets, but also bids towards achieving whatever goal that may be.

From watching enough John Woo movies, its easy to see even pistols can be unloaded pretty quickly(in that genre) with about the same effectiveness as submachineguns(buck-buck-buck, room is cleared, spray, room is cleared).

I wouldn't use the mechanic if you intend for players to be letting off shots one at a time though.

Another, more "realistic" (not really) option would be to increase the damage or odds of hitting based on how many bullets are spent in an attack. This way you can have the John Woo "3 clips into one enemy" effect, or the wild spray option, and it gives players a reason to empty those bowls.

Chris

Dan Bayn's "Wushu Guide to Gun-Fu" has some good words of advice: reloading your gun is not a liability, but an opportunity for still more stylish ways of dispoing of your foes. Of course, Wushu goes for more pure fight cinematography than you may be wanting.

There's also the Chow Yun Fat method of not bothering to reload, but simply drawing new guns. If your players promise to keep drawing new guns from trenchcoats/deadmooks/etc., and if this fits with your envisioned style, then it could work out.

Me personally, I'm worried about handling time of tracking ammo and rolling the die pools; also, who's rolling the die pools? That could matter.

I actually envision using stacks of poker chips, because you can never have too many poker chips, and they already come in three colors (in case you wanted to differentiate between, say, semiauto, burst and autofire). As I envision it, each players stacks their chips as they would keep magazines, on their side of the table; there is a big steel bowl in the middle of the table (or a steel plate, or something). The gimmick is that when they are firing in-game, they have to keep that token-stack (their clip) in their hand as they are using it, and basically flick off a token into the center, with appropriate subsequent "clang" sound following.

The problems then is that, especially if you're using a 30-count ammo clip, you're going to need both hands anyway - you're not going to be able to roll your dice so easily. I think that can be okay, but still.

John's house is up to here with poker chips, and we use them a lot in play for various things. Why not ammo?

You could consider using stacks of chips to represent ammo clips, discard from the top as you unload, and grab a new stack when you reload.

A stack of 15 for a beretta 9mm, a stack of 6 for a revolver, and maybe 3 stacks of 10 for a submachinegun.

Ok. So after brainstorming with my most regular player I think we've come up with something to playtest.

The mechanic we've put together is inspired by several of the posts you've given us. Andrew's concept of abstract ammo counting along with Ron's input about random ammo tracking adding drama to the game are the core here. Incorporating the rewards system of the game managed to polish out the rough spots.

Thanks to everyone who assisted.

Now, in the interests of satisfying anyone who's interested in what conclusion we came to, the following is a quick breakdown of the new mechanic, along with the bits of mechanic we'd already settled on that you'll need to know to understand the new mechanic.

Player rolls a number of 10-sided dice equal to their skill. A dice-pool system is in effect.
If the character is using a weapon in Burst Fire mode, they get 2 extra dice to roll in the attack. If the character is using a weapon in Full Auto mode, they get 5 extra dice to roll in the attack.
Instead of listing exactly how many rounds each weapon has, each weapon will include a statistic called "Magazine Points". This will be rated on a 1-5 scale.
Whenever a character is firing a weapon, between one and three of the skill dice being rolled should be of a different color and designated as 'ammo dice'. The number of 'ammo dice' is determined by the mode of fire. Single shot mode means one ammo die, burst fire means two ammo dice, and full automatic means three ammo dice. After tallying successes and resolving the attack the player should note if any of the ammo dice rolled came up as a 1 or a 10. If this is the case, then a single Magazine Point is removed from the weapon. If the weapon no longer has any Magazine Points, then it must be reloaded.
In addition, when a Magazine point is lost, the player may spend a single Cinema Point (part of the rewards system) in order to stem the loss.

We're looking forward to playtesting this mechanic to see if it produces what we want it to. If anyone has any further input, we'll be happy to hear it.

Thanks again for everyone's assistance.

-Eric

May I suggest that the number of ammo dice in a roll somehow correlates with the firing mode? My take would be something like single aimed shot, no extra dice; a few rounds with semiauto, one die; short burst, two dice; full auto, three dice. Less bookkeeping (eh, dice-keeping?). This would be especially cool if the dice can be split agains multiple opponents or otherwise give more boost for the shooting. The guy with MP5 can be really tempted to snatch more of those extra dice, at the expense of risking running out of ammo.

By the way, have you checked Godlike's system? It also has dice pools, and gives bonus dice for full-auto / burst firing.

I thought I'd post a late addition to this thread before it fades into nonexistence. Much of what I'm about to suggest has already been discussed, piecemeal, in one way or another. Consider this yet another method of putting all the pieces together.

The pretty html version of this is posted to my web site. I wrote it a couple of years back for Fudge, but you could apply the concept to any number of game systems, either by importing Fudge dice or making a couple of slight adjustments. In short, each gun is assigned an "ammo skill," that also serves to abstractly track the number of rounds remaining. When you fire the gun, you roll a skill check for the gun. Success, and the ammo level remains the same. Failure, and you reduce the gun's ammo skill.

Here's a reprint of the original. Please excuse the introductory verbiage.

Fudging Ammo
A simple and cinematic mechanic for handling ammunition in Fudge and other RPGs.

Do you hate subtracting and calculating the number of bullets spent during any given combat?
You're damn right you do.

Instead of listing the number of bullets a clip holds, or the number of clips your character has on his person at any given time, use the fudge rating scale to track your shots. Granted, this method takes a certain sort of mentality - if you are into reality simulation stop right now. The system creates the same feeling many action movies aspire to.

The sound of semi-automatic gunfire filled the empty warehouse. Grant pulled his Desert Eagle out of his shoulder holster and slid the clip out.

"Full - let's go to work baby," he whispered as he gave the silver barrel a kiss.

Grant ran 'round the side of the crate he was hiding behind and clicked the ammunition back into place. With the fury of hate in his eyes he ploughed through agents like a mad man out of prison.

Unless the player declares specifically that his weapon has run out of ammo the luck of the dice alone will determine the rounds in the clip. To begin, rate each weapon before the game gets underway with one of the seven fudge ratings, from terrible to superb. A sniper rifle or holdout pistol will usually only carry a poor to moderate store of ammo. The average handgun will have anywhere from fair to good capacity. A submachine gun should have good or great capacity; your average full sized machine gun will top off the scale at superb.

Grant winced as the blue agent's gun went off. In slow motion he saw the smoke trailing from the pistol as Mr. Blue lowered his arm. And then in a quickening pace the bullet tore through Grant's suit and his upper shoulder.

"Damn," he shouted as he groped for support. "Where'd my gun go to?"

He had dropped it when the bullet made him bleed. No matter, Grant had spotted the tripod five seconds prior. He threw the cloth cover off the military grade machine gun and stared momentarily at the belt of bullets already fed into the weapon's barrel.

"Superb," he smiled.

Any time a character fires his weapon he must make an ammunition check so as to determine the number of rounds left in the firearm. The player rolls four fudge dice and totals the result. If the dice add to zero or greater the gun's ammo rating remains the same, but when the dice are a negative value subtract the roll from the gun's current status. So for example if a character fires his pistol with fair capacity he then rolls 4dF. The player rolls a -1 and so the rating drops to mediocre. If on the other hand he had rolled a 2, the ammunition level would have remained at fair.

The sound of a jackhammer echoed through the warehouse. Mr. Blue whirled around in a quick panic, looking for the source of the sound. He spotted Grant's face in the repeating light of chain gunfire half a second before his own body was grounded under an unstoppable force of lead.

The agents all dove for cover behind boxes, crates, and machinery. They were pinned down as the continual patter of Grant's one-man artillery bounced off every wall.

Grant fashioned a wicked smile; he had yet to release the trigger from his iron grip and yet the pile of ammunition lying next to him looked as high as when his fury had begun.

If at anytime a gun's ammo rating drops below terrible the gun has hit empty. Before his weapon will function at maximum capacity again the player must remove the old and insert a full reload. Notice that guns assigned a rating of fair or lower may empty after only one shot - an intended effect. However the chance of rolling a -4 at any time is poor. As an alternative you may instead rate individual clips, or even keep ammo ratings a secret - the players may never know the number of rounds left in the gun they picked off the dead guard.

"Shit!" Grant yelled.

One second the bullets were flowing like water, and the next they were... well they still were. The only problem was that Grant wasn't the one firing them. That's the way firefights go sometimes. When you have the bullets and the big gun no one even bothers to peak their pretty little heads out. The next thing you know your ammunition dump ceases to exist and you shout out profanity.

Grant immediately ducked. When the agents paused to reload, Grant reconsidered his options. There was a glass window to the north and a decommissioned airplane to the east - gas tanks to his left...

I have used a system where the players have to buy the dice they are going to roll by exchanging chips or cards with a picture of a magazine etc on it. So they take a magasine card from their equipment 'hand' they exchange it for the appropriate number of dice. In my system I roll the dice for the players, so as they fire they give me a certain number of dice to roll.
I have to say it would be nice to cobine this with the tube system mentioned, dark tubes for most magasines where you can see the rounds and have to keep count, clear ones for more modern mags.

All the best

Jonathan

I think that the key is to make the character's skill roll part of the "reload" roll for a more abstract system. That is, each "shot" by a character may be one shot, it may be five - just as in a swordfight, an attack my be one well timed swing, or it may be many. The point is that the amount of ammo that a character needs to hit another is dependent on skill. So, instead of rolling for each bullet, part of the roll is, in theory, how many pulls of the trigger did it take to get the effect that the resolution said occured in that time period. Hit this round? Then maybe it took you squeezing off two rounds. Missed? Maybe you panick fired a dozen rounds pointlessly.

This is very realisitic - it means that characters don't often hit with one shot, they have to take many, essentially, to get even one chance to hit. When you make the reload roll, it merely represents how crazy you went with the trigger in the previous rounds of firing. Have to reload after three rounds with a nine mill berretta with a 15 mag? Then you've been firing about 5 rounds on average per round to get your results. Want to go through ammo less quickly? Become more skilled.

Realistic, and cinematic. The effects of this are really neat. Loads of bullets are flying all over, the characters are constantly reloading, yet the same amount of action is occuring in the same amount of time. And you can narrate anything you like. Run out of ammo with in the attack that took out the bad guy? Then narrate that you only had one bullet left, and made it count. Or that you emptied most of the clip into him. Whatever's coolest at the moment.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Have to reload after three rounds with a nine mill berretta with a 15 mag? Then you've been firing about 5 rounds on average per round to get your results.

Tim C Koppang wrote: The above makes it sound like you wouldn't find out how many bullets your character had been popping off until a few combat actions later, when he finally runs out of ammo. I'm not sure if that's what you intended to say, but if so then I'd argue that it would be more cinematic to know the number of bullets your character is wasting after each of his "shots.".

Mike Holmes wrote: OTOH, there's another school of thought which says that in these movies that you always chuck hails of bullets each "round". From that POV, I'd just require reloading every three round or something easy to keep track of.