Hey Guys,

How does one pull a punch (decided pre-emptively...not a "whoops, can I take that back" upon noticing your successes are so great you're going to gut someone)? I browsed through the forum and the only topic I found that seems to kindof address this is back on page 32 or so and is called "Overdamage", and I'm not sure I quite followed it or that it exactly applies.

What prompted this is the lethality of the system versus the duels historically fought. While some actually were actually the bloody death battles normally envisioned, the vast majority (or so I have come to believe based on books I've read thus far) were to first blood only...and that first blood was normally somewhere between a scratch and a bad cut...not a skewered, disembodied heart waving wildly on the end of the opponent's blade while he merrilly dances and cavorts around the dueling grounds laughing and pointing at the expired corpse.

Under the assumption that two highly moral individuals have found themselves in a duel they could not avoid, and they are using rapier's (for which the valid target area...for proper gentlemen anyhow...is upper and lower torso and groin...no arms, no legs, no head), how does one avoid killing your opponent? Using less dice is obviously not the answer as pulling a punch is TOUGHER than going all out and requires MORE skill, not less.

Also please consider the case where a kind hearted master is insulted by some hapless pion, and wants to give him the chance to appologize rather than just kill him outright. As a master he should be able to coupe, double, disengage, and otherwise parry repost his opponent into a tizzy, stopping his point short of contact by an inch or so each time, without so much as scratching him (unless the opponent runs into the blade by trying to ballustra lunge forward during the attack or something and impales himself on the point that would have otherwise fallen safely short).

I had given thought to a house rule that basically said the attacker gets to decide HOW the net successes affect his damage (if 3 net successes, then he would have the choice of whether those 3 successes increase or decrease weapon damage when it came time to apply damage) but I'm not sure that is the way to go or not. The forum article mentioned above seems like it is hinting the attacker should just throw away extra CP dice above and beyond those he used in the attack...which makes no sense to me as it would take so many (given typical weapon damage) that doing so would leave him defenseless for the second exchange, so a one die attack by the pion would basically gut the master because he exhausted his entire pool trying not to gut the pion...which makes no sense because a master should have no problem staying safely out of reach barring a fumble and should only have minimal problems putting his point as close as possible to a desired target while still avoiding actually touching his opponent (most of which of these problems are probably a result of the opponent's incompetance and exuberance in wanting to jump forward when it is not safe to do so).

While I'm open to all comments from anyone, I'm not really looking for a new house rule here so much as hoping for input from the actual system designers.

thanks much!

Good thing you're not asking for a house rule, since I can't really think of one. (And it's a bit early for me to supply house rules anyway, seing that I've barely tried the system yet) However, a few things come to mind;
First of all, why not use a feint to make sure that you use just enough dice to hit your opponent? Sounds like a fine display of superior skill to me. And if you're worried about skewering him with your rapier (as well you should be), how about cutting/slashing with it? Like Archibald Cunningham toying with Rob Roy McGregor before running him through (at least, that was the idea).
For controlled cuts, on the other hand - forcefully swung, but stopped before hitting - I suppose you do need special rules, so I'll refrain from commenting on those situations.

pulling punches

How about something like this (off the top of my head).

Get the player to roll his attack as normal, and at the same timwe roll his wit (TN based on proficiency somehow, it's harder to pull attacks when you really don't know what you're doing, so maybe 10-proficiency with a minimum of 3, something like that). Use different colored dice for the Wit roll or just roll in a different area so you don't mix them up.

Each success on the Wit roll is one success you can choose to reduce your (MOS+Str+Damage) by, before it's compared to the opponents TO+AR.

How's that? Refinements please...

That's exactly the response that in the original posting was declared to be not correct, especially since a net success of one by a strong person still inflicts a mortal wound on an average toughness non-armored opponent...which is the case of two dweebs dueling or the case of one master versus one dweeb dueling that I am attempting to find a resolution for.

Whoops...Brian snuck in a response before I hit submit. Brian, this is not talking about your response (which I have not read yet).

Got to be quicker on the post I see <grin>

PS: You never asked your second question, but yes, there is an index to this forum (of sorts, it's a month or two out of date again). Look at the Sticky "Forum Directory" at the top of the topic listing.

Brian.

Thanks Brian! Yes the second question was "where's the index." As for the first, I like the concept of the 10 - proficiency, minimum 3 thing, but I do have a question though. If wit is being used, and you are average wit (4), then at most you are probably going to get 4 successes....with damage being str (4) + weapon (2 for rapier) + net successes (at least one but possibly lots more if you are that good and your opponent sucks that much) that leads to incoming damage of no less than seven, reduced by no more than 4 for wit and 4 more for toughness (barring armor). Granted that's negative one so far, but pump str up by 2 and toughness down by one (let alone one or two more net successes) and you're already well on your way to a mortal wound as your BEST hope (level 2 wound plus net successes beyond one) and that's on a PERFECT wit roll. Just a thought. No need to hurry in response...I'm kindof looking for a rock solid rule that might show up in a supplement some day, so if you don't mind, please kick it around for a while if you have the time and let me know what you come up with.

thanks again for the lightning response!

Here's my house rule for pulling blows. First of all use fewer dice to attack.
But anyhow, here it is. After you roll to see if the blow hits or not, roll either ST or AG, whichever you see as most appropriate, I'd go with AG for bare hands, vs the ATN of the weapon (or fist I guess). Subtract the successes from the damage dealt.
Pretty simple.

This came up in my game last night but not in the case of dueling but rather punching.
One of my players wanted to pull his punch to knock someone out rather than killing him.
We rolled it all normally and he got a level 5 wound and killed the poor kid so we decided on the spot that he could take 2 dmg off the end dmg before attacking in the future.

The reasoning behind this is that before you attack you are already thinking that you are going to pull the punch though when it comes down to it it still might not be enough or it may be a little to much which is probably pretty realistic in my view

Maybe the simplest way to handle it would be to just allow people to use less than their total strength in the attack, so damage can range anywhere from MOS + weapon damage up to MOS + str + weapon damage completely at the attacker's discretion. This must be declared before the dice are rolled. You still run the risk of killing someone from excessive MOS, but you don't have to make any extra die rolls this way. This method also makes it more difficult to pull punches with more deadly weapons, since you can't compensate for the weapon modifier, which makes a lot of sense to me.

I'm with kenjib on this one. Actually, he stole my thoughts. ;)
"Pulling a punch" is just hitting with less strength, right? So leave the rules alone and do just that! It is all there in the book, you just have to look for it.

Yeah that sounds better than a flat 2 point reduction.

So a punch would be MOS -2 dmg with as much or as little STR added as you wanted (obviously decided before the roll.

Yep that sounds good :)

Dain wrote:
What prompted this is the lethality of the system versus the duels historically fought. While some actually were actually the bloody death battles normally envisioned, the vast majority (or so I have come to believe based on books I've read thus far) were to first blood only...and that first blood was normally somewhere between a scratch and a bad cut...not a skewered, disembodied heart waving wildly on the end of the opponent's blade while he merrilly dances and cavorts around the dueling grounds laughing and pointing at the expired corpse.

Under the assumption that two highly moral individuals have found themselves in a duel they could not avoid, and they are using rapier's (for which the valid target area...for proper gentlemen anyhow...is upper and lower torso and groin...no arms, no legs, no head), how does one avoid killing your opponent? Using less dice is obviously not the answer as pulling a punch is TOUGHER than going all out and requires MORE skill, not less.

Also please consider the case where a kind hearted master is insulted by some hapless pion, and wants to give him the chance to appologize rather than just kill him outright. As a master he should be able to coupe, double, disengage, and otherwise parry repost his opponent into a tizzy, stopping his point short of contact by an inch or so each time, without so much as scratching him (unless the opponent runs into the blade by trying to ballustra lunge forward during the attack or something and impales himself on the point that would have otherwise fallen safely short).

Hi Dain,

From my experience, it does take significant skill to not "overly" hurt someone if you are serious about fighting, especially with weapons. Any attacks need to inflict enough force to cause stun/shock, but not enough to be a serious injury.

That's why I advocate that spending a cp/injury level as an option. If you spend about 2 or 3, you can preclude folks getting their spinal cords juggled while still having the option to inflict a level 2 or 3 wound as appropriate. Note that after you spend the CP, you don't HAVE to reduce the wound, you just have the OPTION of doing so. I would suspect that most masters have an extra 2 or 3 CP to spare for the average meat monkey about to be schooled.

Chris

Thanks to all. Special thanks to Jake and Brian as I'm sure you're swamped all day long with these things. Lots of good ideas all around here. It will be interesting to see what the final ruling ends up being in future printings or supplements.

Some ideas I personally think especially noteworthy included the following:
1. pulling a punch has to be declared prior to rolling any dice...too bad for you if the other guy is better than you think or if he gets lucky on a counter of some nature...you don't get to change your mind when you see the results. It's pretty rare you change your mind on whether or not to gut your opponent in mid thrust....usually that decision is made before the attack begins...now if he gets lucky and hits you back, then emotions may make one reconsider being so kind on the NEXT attack.
2. leaving off the strength (which is really what you do when you are just "playing with" someone...you just maneuver the blade into a lethal position without completing the lunge that would actually deliver the lethal wound. Leaving off the strength reduces the damage by tons in this system, especially if one's strength is considerably greater than 4 and one is fighting an unarmored opponent).
3. while reducing dice used is not an answer in itself, it does make sense to not waste your pool unnecessarily and reserve some for defense, so I acknowledge several posters suggesting that tactic.

Jake, could you please expound upon your favorite?...the terrain method? Maybe with an off the cuff example? Who's DTN, attacker or defender? Terrain based on actual terrain conditions? What number of dice would be rolled (sorry if that's an obvious value based on move statistic or something that is clearly listed in the terrain maneuver section of the book...I've only read it a couple of times so far and not all of it has stuck yet, so I'm not recalling the mechanic).

Thanks again to all!

Because I agree that it takes more skill to pull a blow effectively than it takes to strike a wound, I devised the following house rule.

Players get to spend a number of CP prior to the pulled attack. They may then substract that number from the eventual wound caused, if any. Spending 5 CP is thus sufficient to reduce any potential wound.

That is assuming you do not allow for overkill (spending excess dmg unto other locations) or that you will forgo it for a duel.


Take care

Dain wrote: Jake, could you please expound upon your favorite?...the terrain method? Maybe with an off the cuff example? Who's DTN, attacker or defender? Terrain based on actual terrain conditions? What number of dice would be rolled (sorry if that's an obvious value based on move statistic or something that is clearly listed in the terrain maneuver section of the book...I've only read it a couple of times so far and not all of it has stuck yet, so I'm not recalling the mechanic).

Thanks again to all!

I like it. It adhers to the #1 rule for GMing TROS.

When in doubt...use a Terrain Roll.

Hello,

Sorry this may already have been mentioned (I've not had chance to read all this thread yet ;-)

Wrt pulling punches I asked this a while a go and it was suggested that it could be treated liek a maneouver where you pay 1 or two dice from the CP to discount damage (punch pulled, use flat of blade etc.) But still roll for Knock down and (maybe) shock thus allowing an effect from the blow.

For example a strick to your opponents weapon arm with the flat of your blade would cost the activation cost if it hit your opponent would have to roll knock down to see if the weapon was dropped, and maybe a shock modifier to your opponents combat pool fro next go (but your opponent still gets to keep is arm ;-) ) maybe a level 4/5 wound should still break the arm?

Hope this is food for thought,
Dan.

That's a good point, Dan. It's also worth mentioning that Maneuver activation costs are really just Terrain rolls automatically calculated so that you don't have to roll one more thing in combat.

Jake

THAT is a pretty powerful revelation. Hadn't made the connection, but it follows logically.

Taken a step further, it represents ability gained through drill, practice, and repetition of good form with a knowledgable instructor, such that the move becomes so second nature the Terrain Roll is automatically successfull.

Now extrapolating from this, one can see a whole range of "cool stuff to do with my sword" that could be tried, but, because its not part of standard formal trainging, the player must rely on a Terrain Roll to do it, rather than just pay a set activation cost.

One could even see this as allowing swordsmen to make a standard maneuver that they don't have a high enough proficiency for by using a Terrain Roll to see if they can pull it off because they aren't good enough yet to just pay the CP cost and be done with it.

And it follows, then, from there, that if I work hard enough at the new "cool stuff to do with my sword" using a terrain roll, it would eventually become a fixed cost (using some as of yet unrevealed formula) and I would have invented a new maneuver which I could then train others to use...

Jake Norwood wrote: It's also worth mentioning that Maneuver activation costs are really just Terrain rolls automatically calculated so that you don't have to roll one more thing in combat.

What? You guys want to understand everything...?

Jake

Jake Norwood wrote: What? You guys want to understand everything...?

Man, making me share all my secrets...

It also begs the question: What advantages, if any, would there be in rolling the dice instead of just spending them? Is there any advantage to rolling more? Less?

Also, what happens when you fail?

Against John? I die right then and there. Against other folks...50-50.

I'd say that you'd lose all the dice you put into that attack and lose initative, but you could still defend yourself if the other guy choses to attack...maybe...

Jake

So as an alternate rule, I could choose to roll 1 die for Counter, rather than spending 2, but risk a failure, in which case I assume that the counter does not happen alongside the parry.

Hm. Interesting. I can't see many people choosing the slightly lessened cost over the sure thing, but it's interesting to know that it could be an option.

I wouldn't expect it to get chosen. As a system it would representing the inexperienced swordsman attempting a maneuver that he hadn't drilled sufficiently enough to internalize (fixed cp cost). So an experienced swordsman electing to use it would really be trying a desperation move. I could see it being tried in that context. When you don't have enough dice to parry AND counter so you try to squeak out an extra die by making the roll...kind of flailing desperately. I would imagine that a master observing would be able to identify the exact moment his form went to hell.

Jake Norwood wrote:

Dain wrote:
Also, it takes skill not to injure someone, so I would either be for using less dice on the attack, reducing ST, or for making a pulled blow a "terrain roll" based on the weapon's DTN. That last one's my favorite.

Man, it's a good day when you find one of your own players at your favorite site!

Jake -- for the "terrain roll"; would you be talking CP dice? So, Master D'Umbra parries, counters, and strikes... then throws some CP dice to ensure that his skill keeps the wound within his acceptable levels?

BirdMan,

I'm not Jake, but the answer is yes. When in melee combat, all terrain rolls come from the combat pool.

I think... its a good idea to be able to spend 2CP for evry dice you want to take away from a final damage roll. After braining someone with the pommel of my longsword, meaning only to knock them out, the direction of our campaign may be forever altered. With my mighty logic, a skilled fighter can elect to not have completely smashed ones melon to goopy puddle of brains by spending some of their skill.

Big Kev,

I am assuming you mean spend instead of rolling and using the successes, as a means of ensuring success, rather than leaving it to the vagaries of chance?

If so, I suppose it would be an option, but I'd honestly rather roll for it.. Or just use the optional rule that extra CP spent means that you can reduce the damage by up to that amount.

Likewise. People plenty often hit harder than they want to, and there's always the chance of a fumble. The more important it is, the more CP someone will spend on that roll to ensure it'll work as well.

what i was trying to get at, which may or may not (usually not) have been clear was.... for ex:

CP 10 pommell blow to head ( hoping for KO) spend 6 on attack then assign the other 4 (at a rate of 2 per possible success) to reduce (and only reduce) the final damage code... so if i brain him for 6, i could drop it back to 4 for a 'mostly brained' with my expenditue of those other 4 dice. if this sounds like a bollocks idea and im full of shite please dont hesitate to inform me =)

and if i should have read more thoroughly the previous thoughts on this thread then i plead ignorant (reference thread topic =)

...and after my closing statement on previous entry i am now realising that this isnt my thread at all where i declare solemnly that i am an ignorant bufoon (almost) so if we all just consider me the fool i would be very grateful =)

Heh. If you want to call yourself names, that's your issue.

As for me, I just don't see why you're declaring it at a 2CP per -1 reduction. If that's the way you want to run it, that's fine.. But I'd run it at a 1-to-1 ratio, myself.