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Just a quick thought I had the other day, wanted to throw it out there and see what it means.

In the traditional Gaming Industry, there were pretty much two-three classes of dudes (think Character Classes), as I see it:

Dudes who Buy/Play games
Dudes who Design games
* Dudes who Write for the Dudes who Design Games (filler authors, adventure/scenario writers, etc)

The Small-Press scene comes along, and we see a much lower entry level into being one of those Dudes who Design games.

There's a certain amount of personal prestiege involved. Being a Game Designer is a "level above" Just Another Gamer.  You're more involved. You're Creating! etc.

I think recently, though, looking at various RPG message boards, I've been seeing in the Indiestry* a new class of people, whom I will call:

Dudes who Support Games.

They're a step above Joe Gamer.  They basically glam on to one or more small press games, write material for the game, and often publish it online.  Sometimes they collaborate with the original designer to publish something, most of the time they're just doing it for the thrill of creation or whatever.

Basically, I'm point my finger squarely at the Mythic Russia guys, and guys like Judd "Paka", who seem to be an endless font of gaming enthusiasm and idea creation- A furnace who sparks ideas and enthusiasm in others.

I have been speculating that, as Indie designers become more open to letting others publish works for their game lines at their own expense (see TSOY, Sorcerer, etc), I wager that we'll see a pleasant explosion, a tapestry of enthusiastic folks working together to put supplements and material out for Indie publishers.  Dudes who are too busy to completely get into creating a new game from scratch, or for whom RPG-from-scratch creation just isn't a big turnon, who have the time, energy, and will to work out a sub-setting, scenarios or advanced rules for their favorite small-press games.

Sure, there are the same types who do the same for mainstream published games ("100 places for a fight in Feng Shui" webpage guy, or "The Exalted Total Character Generation Program" coder guy), but while they too create, the odds are much lower that they will be able to collaborate with the designer to publish their own works. With the Indiestry, though, the author is usually just a friendly email away- Much easier to collaborate.

Just a thought. Reactions?

-Andy
*Indiestry is my cute little word for Small-Press/Indie Industry

Hiya,

I also think that the big difference is that such folks (Scott Knipe being a groundbreaker here, actually) are making their own money with their own work when they do it. They are neither hired, nor are they supplicants. It's professional work they're doing and which they themselves own, which makes money on its own merits, for them.

All the better, I say.

Oh yeah! Great example: the guys at the Temple of the Reaching Moon, who publish all sorts of great HeroQuest stuff on their own hook.

Best,
Ron

A data point/example of someone who sounds exactly like what you're talking about.

I have a friend, Bradley, who I've done a lot of online gaming with, mostly WW's Hunter line. One day I told him about Timestream and sent him the pdf. Not only did he call me a genius* **, he wants to write an IC journal as supplementary material for the website - which I am more than happy to encourage, for sure.

As a designer still working up to the whole actually getting it published stage, it's simply amazing when there's someone out there who seems to be as excited about your game as you are, which is another role this strata of gamer happily fills, methinks.

So there's my thought on the matter.

*not that I think I'm writing better games than anyone else here, it's literally what he said

** also, he's only ever played WW game lines, to my knowledge. So take that as you will.

I don't think its a new class of hobbiest at all.  These contributing players have been around since Alarums and Excursions.  One only has to look at stuff from Judges Guild or Fifth Cycle to seem them historically.

What happened, however, is that the industry moved away from the grass roots and towards big productions, lots of high cost art and legions of freelancers.  That developed a culture where the paid freelancer was put above the "mere" hobbiest contributor and alot of those contributors drifted back to just doing their own thing.

What the indie press movement has done is revive the hobby at the grass roots level and embrace throse contributing fans.  THEY have always been the real hobby and their evangalizing is largely responsible for why small press publishers can actually turn a profit.  

They are also the reason why every time I see some dumb ass posting about the death of the hobby or some "big" company talking about how hard it is to be an RPG publisher because the hobby isn't healthy I laugh.  Healthy?  The hobby is healthier than its been in decades because there are swarms of gamers who are excited to play, to participate and contribute.  

If there's one accomplishment indie press publishers should be most proud of its not inventing cool new mechanics or new styles of play or theoretical insights into the nature of gaming.  Its kicking the splat collectors in the nads and giving the hobby back to the hobbiests.

And its catching on.  Look at Shane Hensley and Savage Worlds today and how fans are driving the success of that game with fanzines, supplements, and volumes of support material...far more than Shane could produce himself.

High five to Ralph.

Best,
Ron

Also, let's not forget the role of the internet. Technology - in the form of webpages, .pdf documents, message boards and so on - has made this possible. Many hobbyists are geeks and technophiles.

Quote from: ValamirIf there's one accomplishment indie press publishers should be most proud of its not inventing cool new mechanics or new styles of play or theoretical insights into the nature of gaming.  Its kicking the splat collectors in the nads and giving the hobby back to the hobbiests.

I can't quite fathom your attitude towards the splat collectors... You're not into that, okay, fine, but what's with the aggression?

(And yeah, I buy plenty of splats ... *and* indie games.)

Regards,

Hal

I'd take Raph's remarks to mean the industry and the companies that rely on splats to keep their heads above water. If they're producing the umpteenth book on Elves or on Halfling brewing technology and charging between $10 and $20 (which is what I see most D&D books going for), you have problems for the players.
A) They're not getting anything honestly new- often times splats are rehashes of something published before or something obscure or hardly ever used.
B) We indies know a difference between players and collectors because we deal with a lot of our players on a one-on-one basis - the larger corperations don't. So, Collectors buying up the splats simply affirm the product line and the company keeps at it.

Theres nothing *wrong* with collecting them, but it does present a problem when you consider sales are merely numbers to the likes of WotC & WW, not players or collectors. If it sells, they'll produce that and possibly skip over something else that might have real innovation and merit. If its collectors that are buying, it means the players see nothing new or exciting.

Are there really that many "collectors"?  I can certainly imagine someone buying the latest splatbook, putting it up on the shelf, and proudly regarding his complete collection... but is that really all that common?  I can't imagine that those people are a large enough minority to skew sales figures.

Quote from: VaxalonAre there really that many "collectors"?  I can certainly imagine someone buying the latest splatbook, putting it up on the shelf, and proudly regarding his complete collection... but is that really all that common?  I can't imagine that those people are a large enough minority to skew sales figures.

Actually, the word "collector" is a little misleading.  I think "consumer" or some variant, "line consumer", etc is more appropriate.

Most of the people who buy these splats put them to use in some form, even if it's just reading it cover-to-cover like a novel then putting it on the shelf (I know a lot of Exalted fans like this).

-Andy

Quote from: VaxalonAre there really that many "collectors"?  I can certainly imagine someone buying the latest splatbook, putting it up on the shelf, and proudly regarding his complete collection... but is that really all that common?  I can't imagine that those people are a large enough minority to skew sales figures.

Well for my part I regard people who simply by rpg's for reading material, and who buy a lot more than they can actually use are 'collectors'.  They are the backbone of the 'industry', and it doesn't  take many of them to skew the market.  I firmly believe that at least HALF of rpg sales go to this minority,who are about 5% of rpg participants.  Although small in numbers their purchases are enough to heavily skew the marketplace.

Quote from: ValamirI don't think its a new class of hobbiest at all.  These contributing players have been around since Alarums and Excursions.  One only has to look at stuff from Judges Guild or Fifth Cycle to seem them historically.

I strongly agree this sort of 'supporter' has always existed, it's just that until the internet they were mostly obscure.

Now they can cheaply achieve notice on a worldwide scale, and indeed with new publishing venues such as POD, they can become actual publishers as well.

Quote from: Andy KitkowskiMost of the people who buy these splats put them to use in some form, even if it's just reading it cover-to-cover like a novel then putting it on the shelf (I know a lot of Exalted fans like this).

-Andy

Are these the 'reading the rules is actual play' people that the sim essay notes? Since enjoying the causal networks described in the rules is something to enjoy.

If so, the 'industry' is supporting more the customers who don't network and just read a book and then put it down. The industry is making this difficulty, for itself.

Actually, for Ron: There seemed to be a hard snap away from gamist play to sim as 'the thing to do', in RPG history. Would this correlate to when the publishers perhaps started supporting this sort of customer? Just kicking around ideas.

Quote from: b_bankheadWell for my part I regard people who simply by rpg's for reading material, and who buy a lot more than they can actually use are 'collectors'.

I probably fit into this, although lately my "collecting" has been limited to vintage works. Some RPG material is interesting to read; I have probably never used the GURPS timeline books for gaming material, but they are great reading material.

I also tend to buy more RPGs that I'm not planning to use during those periods when I am not gaming; perhaps like the cat who became an ornithologist when unable to be an orniphage?

So I pick up interesting works that I will never play, such as Darkwood, or de Profundis.

There are also works that are printed solely for collectors by that definition. At least, I suspect that few people have used the Slayers Guide to Females for gaming material.

Jerry

Quote from: b_bankheadI strongly agree this sort of 'supporter' has always existed, it's just that until the internet they were mostly obscure.

Now they can cheaply achieve notice on a worldwide scale, and indeed with new publishing venues such as POD, they can become actual publishers as well.

I guess my conjecture is that it's not just the technology which allows them to publish that much easier, it's the evolution of the social network of small-press game designers (most of whom are easily reachable by email and the like, and in many cases these days willing to let others play in their sandbox) that moves this supporter/hobbyist from the "fan page about Game X: But no monies received for praxis" level to the "producer (and seller) of supplemental works for Game X" level.

Maybe it's a roundabout way of saying what we know about the new model of RPG Publishing (doing it yourself), but with RPG Supplement/Support people instead of Designers. Supplement self-publishers, working with designers closer thanks to the ties between technology and the social community of hobbyists who use them.

Hey, all, :)

Quote from: VaxalonAre there really that many "collectors"?  I can certainly imagine someone buying the latest splatbook, putting it up on the shelf, and proudly regarding his complete collection... but is that really all that common?  I can't imagine that those people are a large enough minority to skew sales figures.

I happened to have just met a guy this weekend that writes freelance Shadowrun setting stuff for FanPro. The feedback he gets from them is that they are quite content to churn out new settings books at whatever pace they can because each and every book seels at least 3000 copies plus bonus. Those 3000 copies, he says, are sistematically sold to the same people, approximately, and they are enough to pay for the production costs and show just a tiny bit of profit. So, they print it. Whatever copies they sell above that is a bonus. Furthermore, he says that a printing run consists of 5000 copies, and even though the core rulebook is in it's 13th printing, the vast majority of source books have yet to see their second printing. Which means these "collectors" may well represent over half their market.

It's hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt, but one of my long-time friends is like this. He doesn't have the time to actualy game, but he loves the setting, so he buys everything he can get his hands on. And I'm talking about Lisbon, Portugal. You can bet there's tons more of this in the US, UK and Germany.

Cheers,

J.