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From reading a bunch of Actual Play Sorcerer stuff (linked from the RPG website) I'm noticing that many (most) Sorcerer campaigns are set up for the short-term (six sessions, maybe, at most).  Is this some sort of particular malignant side-effect of the game, or is it a trend somehow unrelated to the game?  I've seen Ron mention quite a few times that Sorcerer is meant for long-term play, so why is everything all short-term in the Actual Play files?

In addition, I that the sessions themselves seem significantly shorter than the gaming sessions I am used to (3-4 hours seems to be the average, with 5 somehow being considered long).  Why is that?  I know a gaming session that only lasted 4 hours long has, in the past, prompted at least one of the players in my group to complain about the "waste of gas money."

Just wondering if there's a reason for these trends that's related to the game itself, or if I'm perhaps overstating or missing the point of some of these trends, or if there's some other issue at work entirely.  

Call me Curiously Consterned

I believe its a matter of definition.  6 Sessions is pretty long term for many groups.  The never ending  3 year "campaign" is an artifact that some consider the default game length, but many others avoid like the plague.

Narrativist games are about addressing a theme.  Its hard to imagine a situation where a narrativist game could a) address a theme in a powerful interesting manner, and yet b) never actually resolve the issues of play after dozens of sessions.  

More likely you resolve the issues in 3-6 sessions.  THEN in Sorcerer you can take the next step, rewrite the kicker, "improve" the character, and start another 3-6 session "sequel" with new issues.  More often it provides a convenient break to either establish a whole new Sorcerer game with new characters / setting, or to play a new game altogether.

Hi Alex,

Two things usually push towards getting more done in a 4 hour session, and a "short" campaign than in the "traditional" sorts of play.  I know that didn't really come forward in the IRC game, but in face to face, it tends to be the trend.  These two ideas are:

-Story Now,
or driving towards a meaningful, complete story, with a solid climax, and end to a story arc, as opposed to the misguided attempt to make an "epic" game.

-Bangs and Scene Framing
With Story Now as the concept, Bangs and Scene framing push things a lot faster than A to B to C sorts of play.

Chris

So Sorcerer is set up for traditionally-defined short-term play, then?  Why then would it be called long-term?  And if that is long term, what is "short-term"?  Is it just the re-definition of lengths of terms that's confusing me?

How does a group manage the timing of getting everyone's kickers resolved, well, simultaneously, or at least in the same session?  From reading the main book (gamers attic hasn't chosen to ship me the other supplements yet), I kept on envisioning a potentially perpetual story, as kicker-resolution between PCs would quite "naturally" stagger in time.

Exploration of a story and theme through continuity, I guess, rather than through closure.  Or do you believe each season of a TV show embodies different themes (purposefully, that is)?  Each book in a series embodies different themes?

Alex,

To add to what Chris said...

Sorcerer is exhausting.  I mean that in a totally good way, of course.  Like the exhaustion you feel after a solid workout.  'Cause that's what it is (shit, Paul keeps fucking Gatorade around when he's running games like these, a habit I've started to imitate).  Four hours of being on your toes, scene framing, engineering bangs, and delivering solid adversity to the players wears me out.  And it's not like I've never GMed or played in those 15 hour game sessions and year-long campaigns - I have.  But they aren't half as taxing, or satisfying, as a good session of Sorcerer.  

- Scott

Further thoughts, since I cross-posted with Alex...

QuoteOr do you believe each season of a TV show embodies different themes (purposefully, that is)? Each book in a series embodies different themes?

I don't necessarily think they have to explore different thematic territory, but you know, I get kinda' bored with 'em if I don't see something different once in a while.

I see Humanity as the thematic territory of Sorcerer.  Now, you can play Sorcerer long-term, and it is built for that.  Like Ralph said, Kickers are the key to doing so.  Resolving a Kicker gives you that sense of dramatic conclusion you need for your story to feel complete (all stories have endings,right?); then you write a new one and you're off to the races again.  And as long as you can keep your Humanity in the black, you can play Sorcerer like that on into infinity, like a good ensemble-cast TV series.

As far as the short-term stuff you're seeing around here, that may be a feature of The Forge membership in particular.  The group I play with has limited time to play, and we like to try lots of different games, so campaign play is pretty much out of the question.  Others play Sorcerer once or twice, maybe as a training vehicle or just to see what the big deal is, and then take that knowledge back to their old mainstays (I personally find this to be a little disappointing, but to each their own).  I would like to see Sorcerer played out over the long, long haul though; maybe one of these days I'll run out of other games to play and will settle down with Charnel Gods to give it a shot.

- Scott

I was considering starting up a sorcerer game (might as well jump in face first, get egg all over it, and learn from my mistakes, no?) and the "perpetual" style of play appealed to me (with kicker resolution leading either to the character finding a new kicker OR the player finding a new character; I don't see any reason to necessarily require the campaign to be about the same CHARACTERS from beginning to end).  I pictured the theme slowly changing as kickers and characters (and perhaps even players) move against the tapestry that is the continuing story.

So, since none of the three print supplements have arrived, and I read all the pdf files I purchased, over the past few days I pretty much read through the entire Actual Play set of links from the Sorcerer homepage.  And I noticed this pretty much universal trend, which made me wonder if I was somehow doing something wrong in considering/pondering an alternative method, or if Sorcerer would somehow fall flat if I went ahead and tried it.  

I didn't even see any evidence that Sorcerer lent itself to sequels, but perhaps, as Scott pointed out, that's a trait of Forge-ites?

Hi Alexander,

There are so many variables at work here that I think you're jumping at a shadow.

Variable #1: Most of the groups you're reading about happen to be in "short story" mode for a variety of game systems, on purpose. They want to play four-five sessions, maximum, of a given game, and structure their conflicts, player and GM alike, accordingly. Sorcerer is just one of the games they're playing.

Variable #2: Yeah, session length seems to be an interesting variable that a lot of us have see tweaked as we refine our playing over the last couple of years. The pattern seems to be, sessions get shorter, and then, when everyone's used to that, they get longer again ... but it's a different kind of longer. A year or so ago, we played a five-hour session of Hero Wars that was - no lie - about five or six sessions worth of play based on my experiences with Champions, in terms of content and what happened. My Azk'Arn game only ran ten-plus sessions or so, but its content was easily worth a year of play compared to a lot of the role-playing I've observed or participated in, especially those in fantasy settings.

Variable #3: Themes and resolutions. I maintain that (1) Sorcerer permits both be-all final endings and for-now endings for stories, and (2) which actually happens is totally a group-local variable. One could be interested, like Jeffrey, in playing mainly about "love," and geez, that could lead to who knows how many Kickers and resolutions for the characters.

Variable #4: Expectations. Right now, you have some established concepts in your head about how much a session "holds" or how many sessions makes a satisfying experience. A hell of a lot of games at the Forge, Sorcerer included, are going to challenge those concepts in a variety of ways.

More importantly, it may also seem that when I say a Sorcerer session can hold more content, or that only a few sessions can be satisfying, that I'm advocating shorter-term play. I'm not. What I'm saying is the case, but the point is that it makes longer-term play (both session length and number of sessions) a matter of choice. I highly recommend playing Sorcerer for a damn good long time - but the point is that you do it because you want to, not because you have to just to have a good time at all.

Best,
Ron

Hi, Ron!

Actually, you seemed to be advocating longer-term play in many of the threads I read ("Sorcerer is best when played in the long term" is, if not a quote, a pretty direct paraphrase), but the trend I was witnessing through your Actual Play links seemed to not bear things out.

So don't worry about looking like advocating shorter-term play.  You don't appear that way at all (well, at least to me... I can't speak for anyone.  Okay, go ahead and worry).

In other news, my questions have been answered:

1.  No, the relative shortness of campaigns in the Actual Play links is not a result of Sorcerer, nor is it the only option available for Sorcerer.

2.  Yes, there is a reason for the "shorter" sessions - here they are (no point in listing them again).

3.  A re-iteration of "yes, Sorcerer isn't meant JUST for the short story mode," which is good.

And 4, commentary on my expectations, which I am trying to break (hence the intense questioning).  These days, I'm pretty sure a session can contain anything - I've seen a two hour session get more done than a 12-hour session, and it's nice to finally see tools to, well, ensure that's not JUST the result of a lucky accident.

(Also, for the record, I do honestly believe that I'm interested in playing in lengthy/perpetual because I want to.  After reading the CONTENT of the Active Play posts, I'm sometimes left with my appetite only whetted.  I'm probably closer to TV-series or book-series mode than short-story mode, at least in concept.  On the other hand, my mind often flits annoyingly between ideas, so short-story mode might be healthier, and who knows if my mood/approach will change once I actually play/run the game)

Quote from: LxndrActually, you seemed to be advocating longer-term play in many of the threads I read ("Sorcerer is best when played in the long term" is, if not a quote, a pretty direct paraphrase), but the trend I was witnessing through your Actual Play links seemed to not bear things out.

IIRC, Ron has often said that Sorcerer works best in the long-term as opposed to one-shot/convention play. Such as in the thread Demon Antagonism (which was inspired by Sorcerer at Orccon-followup). It's all a matter of "long" being a relative term. Here, he's defining short-term play as single-session.

For me, in 14 years of gaming, my schedule has only ever permitted me to participate in one campaign that lasted over a year, so six sessions is a long-term game. The logisitics alone... sheesh!

To be really specific, and to add to what Michael said, some of those "short-terms" he's talking about is in reference to the half-hour demos we run at cons. As in, Sorcerer has to be played long-term (more than one session) to get stuff that just won't come out in a half-hour game.

Puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

Mike

QuoteI was considering starting up a sorcerer game (might as well jump in face first, get egg all over it, and learn from my mistakes, no?) and the "perpetual" style of play appealed to me (with kicker resolution leading either to the character finding a new kicker OR the player finding a new character; I don't see any reason to necessarily require the campaign to be about the same CHARACTERS from beginning to end). I pictured the theme slowly changing as kickers and characters (and perhaps even players) move against the tapestry that is the continuing story.

Sounds like a fabulous idea, and particularly well suited for a Sword & Sorcery campaign.

Or multi generational play ala the Thorn Birds
(man the relationship maps that could come out that screwed up family).