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Hi,

I hope this topic is appropriate for this forum.

Quote from: In a recent thread Ron EdwardsBasically, role-playing writing has no real foundation for Narrativist scenario creation. I've just begun to scratch the surface for this in my Sorcerer books, and a number of other people have scratched it as well in different ways, but by contrast, there are hundreds if not thousands of objective-based scenarios in the published RPG literature.

I've written a scenario for Issaries myself, and I know it was a real challenge to present it in such a way that provides structure and conflict, but does not railroad events and outcomes, and permits the players to generate The Big Point of the resulting story. Sure, you and I do this in actual play, but we have little or no literary precedent to draw upon for how to do it, and with what, for someone else.

Oh, I do hope someone would like to explore this with me. How do one write a Narrativist scenario for HeroQuest? Would anybody be interested in a learning by doing experiment with me?

I volunteer to provide a number of basic ideas, premises, conflicts, situations, etc. for us to use as a basis for our discussion. The purpose would be to answer the question: How do we write a playable Narrativist scenario based on this mess?

All the best,

/Peter N

If by narratist you mean purely story driven, as opposed to a good old wargaming style kill the baddies grab the goodies approach, a good way to start seems to be with the Heroes motivations.

I've found two reasonable ways of doing this. The first is in an ongoing campaign where I make a point of asking the players what they want to do next session. I started doing this when I was running my campiagn under Runequest, since it was a very good way of keeping player interest high. It made the players feel as if they were the Stars of the game, rather than bit players

Based on what they ask for, and bearing in mind the heroes ongoing goals (stated on the character sheet) I go away and cook up the next session's adventure or, as in HeroQuest, Story.

Another method which has come up in running Convention games, is Mick Rowe's (who posts here as  Palasee) method of giving each hero a mini-myth on their character sheet, such as the Arming of Orlanth ritual. This is an excellent way of getting new player into the story, since it gives them an automatic entry point into the flow of the game, and gets them involved in the game much quicker. In the case of the player with the Arming of Orlanth ritual, he watched what was going on until he found a point in the story where the ritual was appropriate and suddenly his hero was the focus of the story as he organised the clan to gather the necessary equipment and then performed the ritual.

Not entirely sure how this would work in an ongoing campiagn, it would be a bit artifical to give players a new mini-myth at the begining of an adventure. Perhaps a better route would to have players find unrelated myths in their previous storys, that become relevant in the current episode. Also of course there is the discovery of myths during the story. In a strange way you are replacing money and magic items with Myths as rewards for play, since the Myths allow the players to progress in the story , effectively giving them control of the plot devices (the myths).

The episode with its scene structure, then becomes a framework for the Story that the players are weaving.

As you probably guessed I'm a big fan of Player driven games as opposed to GM manipulated games.

So I suspose to translate idea into something practical, what Character motivations do you forsee that the Heroes will have at the begining that get them involved in and continue to motivate them as the story progresses?

Regards

Hi Newt,

Thank you for your swift reply. Your advice is most welcome. I know that you are an experienced narrator and I look forward to your input. However, we are not quite discussing the same thing here.

Quote from: MrWrongIf by narratist you mean purely story driven, as opposed to a good old wargaming style kill the baddies grab the goodies approach,

I mean Narrativist in the Ron Edwards sense. Read System Does Matter to begin with. If you have questions regarding the definition of Narrativism, please ask them at the GNS forum.

What I Am Looking For With This Topic:

I am talking about written scenarios. Not made up by the people playing the scenario. I am literally thinking about scenarios written to be read and played by people other than its author(s). This is what I mean when I ask, "How does one write a Narrativist scenario for HeroQuest?"

I would like to actually write, here at this forum, a Narrativist scenario for HeroQuest. This is what I mean when I talk about learning by doing. As we speak, I am preparing notes for an adventure idea. This will not be a finished scenario, but rather a bunch of, well, ideas, concepts, and conflicts. Then I hope that the talented people here at the Forge would like to dissect, criticize, and mutilate these ideas. I myself plan to most enthusiastically participate in this massacre.

Goal:
The goal, to use Ron's words, is "to present it in such a way that provides structure and conflict, but does not railroad events and outcomes, and permits the players to generate The Big Point of the resulting story."

All the best,

/Peter N

One more thing before I post my ideas:

There is no purpose to this exercise if no one else is prepared to participate. So, people, if you are interested in beating a scenario idea of mine to a pulp, please let me know. I anxiously await your response, so I know whether I shall proceed to the next stage or not.

Cheers,

/Peter N

Quote from: MrWrong
Another method which has come up in running Convention games, is Mick Rowe's (who posts here as  Palasee) method of giving each hero a mini-myth on their character sheet, such as the Arming of Orlanth ritual. This is an excellent way of getting new player into the story, since it gives them an automatic entry point into the flow of the game, and gets them involved in the game much quicker. In the case of the player with the Arming of Orlanth ritual, he watched what was going on until he found a point in the story where the ritual was appropriate and suddenly his hero was the focus of the story as he organised the clan to gather the necessary equipment and then performed the ritual.

Not entirely sure how this would work in an ongoing campiagn, it would be a bit artifical to give players a new mini-myth at the begining of an adventure. Perhaps a better route would to have players find unrelated myths in their previous storys, that become relevant in the current episode. Also of course there is the discovery of myths during the story. In a strange way you are replacing money and magic items with Myths as rewards for play, since the Myths allow the players to progress in the story , effectively giving them control of the plot devices (the myths).

 Hmmm...it seems to me that, at the start of play, you could take the local pantheon, come up with a few mini-myths for each one and then build a relationship map that shows the different ways in which they're linked -- or potential ways in which they're linked.  Let players bring in their unique perspective when the myth becomes relevant and watch how other players linked to it start defining or revising their ideas about the myths they know.

 Widen it a little bit and show how non-local pantheons tie into yours.  Orlanth is seen very differently in many Orlanthi-related cultures for example and obviously, the Lunars see him in a totally different light.

 Pop out a small Heroquest that changes the nature of one of these links and the Players will probably start creating and manipulating the relationship map all on their own.

later
Tom

Hi Tom,

Your ideas are neat and interesting. They are off topic, however. Please, do not hijack this thread.

Editing in: I most certainly did not mean to be rude or impolite in any way. I intended only to state clearly that, in my humble opinion, your post did not address the topic at hand.

Respectfully,

/Peter N

Hi Peter,

This is an excellent topic for discussion.  Of course, I'm going to recommend Sorcerer and Sword and Sorcerer's Soul as Ron's examples of Narrativist scene writing in action.  I'm going to recommend from my batch of stuff, for you to look here:

http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/collists/waystoplay.html

which pretty much is just a restatment of many of the ideas on the Forge, with some of my personal favority techniques for making Nar play happen.

On to your challenge..

Not being entirely enough familiar with Glorantha, I'll give you a generic sort of scenario that can be applied fairly easily, if you want more, or exact details, I'll be happy to fill in.

Summary:

The tribal chief is currently in a coma, and two sons are in line for succession.  The eldest should have it by tradition, but is a brash, irresponsible leader, and other nearby tribes have become more agressive.  The younger is an excellent leader and a pragmatist, and torn between his duty to his father and tradition, and the growing realization that his people might get smashed by outside forces if they're not unified quick.  The people are split, factionalizing is happening, and time is running out.  Some of the folks are still hoping the Chief will recover, and so arrange for a Heroquest to either bring back his soul or see it safely to the underworld and finalize succession if necessary.

Bringing in the PCs:

Specific to this scenario, each PC must have one or more ties to all of the factions, Eldest Son, Younger Son, and the Old Guard(staying true to the Chief).  PCs also start with some form of status/position gain/loss to risk based on who is in charge.  If a PC is one of the Old Guard, they risk losing their position, if one of the sons decides to demote them.  If the PC is related to, or in service to, one of the sons, obviously there's room for rise or loss, betrayal, etc.  If a PC doesn't have this established pre-game, it should quickly be established in game("You know if my cousin doesn't get Chieftain, your sister and your nephew could find themselves left cold in the mountains...")

More Details:

Each son is established with followers and groups, a relationship map is created, etc.  Notice that at the moment, the personalities of the two sons is not established, so either one, or both could be great guys, or complete assholes.  Depending on the tone of story, its an adjustible dial that can spike the conflict more.

Putting on pressure:

Create a couple of NPCs in each faction who will do some pretty desperate and underhanded stuff to acheive their goals.  Also introduce a rival tribe or perhaps an Empire or such that threatens the tribe.  It would also help if outsiders are interfering with the Heroquest, or perhaps through poison or magic have caused the Chief's coma in order to set up this dissension.  Whenever the pressure seems to let up, have one of these NPCs do something, whether successful or botched, that ups the ante.

How does this kind of thing work?

Well, first notice that the role the player characters have in the conflict is undecided.  That is, while they may be related or working for one faction, through ties and conflict, they may have reason to work for another.  The ability to choose what role you play in a conflict is highly protagonizing and allows a lot of room for thematic statements on the parts of the players.

Second, notice that the conflict has some fairly good reasons behind it.  We're talking about a judgement of "What's best for the clan?" being played out with some pro's and con's on all sides.  It makes it even nastier if the younger son happens to also be a cruel asshole.

Third, stakes are high, people are desperate.  The survival of the clan is at stake, everyone has something to gain or lose in this.  Not only all of that, but the father's soul is in some form of limbo, which isn't cool at all.  Desperate people will take drastic measures, some without thinking, causing more chaos in the mix.  This is where folks will be making the majority of thematic statements/moral judgements.  

Consider, if an elderly woman tries to poison someone on the other side, because she has no one who will marry her handicapped son, while what she did is wrong, a judgement of how to punish her(or perhaps aid and abet her) is being made by the group involved.  If a young woman lies and deceives to see a particular side gain power, because someone promised her justice on that side against a rapist on the other, what happens?  Basically, the chieftainship being in question is simply a catalyst for all of the hidden problems, dysfunctions, ambitions, and injustices to come to a head and folks to try to make power plays.

If you'd like a detailed version of this, then I would be happy to write it up, though it might take a bit of time.

Chris

Quote from: Peter Nordstrand
What I Am Looking For With This Topic:

I am talking about written scenarios. Not made up by the people playing the scenario. I am literally thinking about scenarios written to be read and played by people other than its author(s). This is what I mean when I ask, "How does one write a Narrativist scenario for HeroQuest?"

...

Goal:
The goal, to use Ron's words, is "to present it in such a way that provides structure and conflict, but does not railroad events and outcomes, and permits the players to generate The Big Point of the resulting story."

I think the way to write such scenarios is very similar to the way people write freeform games (LARPs).

I think it's usefull to understand why goal-oriented scenario design is so dominant. There are good reasons for it. The author doesn't need to know very much about  the characters, only that they will care about the scenario goal and that they have sufficient abilities to be reasonably expected to acheive the goals. Even these two things are realy just asserted as requirements to play the game.

Narrative gaming is much more concerned with the character's relationships, their emotions and the overlaps and conflicts between their personal goals.

There are two ways to resolve this. One is to provide pre-generated characters. The personal relationships, personal goals and personality stuff that are part of the narative design can be built-in. This is how Freeforms (LARPS) solve the problem.

(As it happens many goal-oriented scenarios also provide pre-generated characetrs, but usualy just for convenience rather than as part of the scenario design. E.g. One-off convention scenarios).

The other way is to build personal relationship and personal goal stuff into the game mechanics, or game background and character design rules. Some games already do this. Vampire is an excelent early example. The different Vampire clans each have characteristic personality traits, rivalries and such which are intended to kick-start narative play. RuneQuest had this pretty much by accident in the Cult writeups, which established a few basic character personality archetypes, but in Vampire it was more explicit.


Simon Hibbs

Hi Peter,

Upon re-reading of your posts, I realized I totally missed the boat on what you were saying.  Please forgive if I hijacked your thread there.

To clarify a bit:

Are you asking how to write a Narrativist scenario to be run by someone familiar with Narrativism, or for anybody?

Chris

Quote from: simon_hibbs
Narrative gaming is much more concerned with the character's relationships, their emotions and the overlaps and conflicts between their personal goals.

There are two ways to resolve this. One is to provide pre-generated characters.

...

The other way is to build personal relationship and personal goal stuff into the game mechanics, or game background and character design rules. Some games already do this.

There's this really cool game that does a great job of this called Hero Wars. ;-)

This is why Ron likes Hero Wars so much. Relationships are one sure way to good Narrativist play. And no HW character is without these. In fact, if you want more Narrativism in play, require more Relationships in chargen.

Once the relationships are in play, all you have to do as GM is to step on them a bit. For example, everyone has a relationship with their Tribe or village, whatever. Simply have some important member of that group denounce the character for some other value they have. So if the character is a lonely shaman type, the chief's brother says that his worship is demonic in nature. Uh, because his wife was killed by the last shaman. Whatever. Then kick it the other way. Say that the chief doesn't want the PC to challenge the brother because that might hurt their standing. What does the character do?

The key to creating Narrativist play is via the "Bang". This is Ron's term for an event that causes a situation to arise that has two qualities:
1. It cannot be ignored. If the character can walk away that decision must be as impactful as any other.
2. The decision is a conflict. That is, it's not at all certain how the player will have the character react. The player will be making up the response, and not simply reacting in an obvious manner.

So, given number two, you can't write up a bang that says that the characters are attacked by some hated enemy. Where's the choice in how to respond? Instead, have them attacked by someone who they care about, and don't want to hurt. Or have the character have the option to fight the hated enemy or help a dear friend. Basically look at the character sheet or at the players play, find two values of the character's and make the player choose between them.

Don't hose them in all cases for these choices. That is, by putting these things opposing, don't make it so that all decisions involve automatic loss. Its just as cool to allow players to choose between two good options, for example. The idea is simply to have the decision mean something to the player that made it.

Just pick a few of these combinations, and write up a couple of possible events for each. Then unleash them when the time seems right. You'll know. It doesn't matter that the characters have differing values. Don't try to have all bangs affect each character equally. This does lead to play that goes off in a lot of directions, but that's part of how narrativism works, and shouldn't be fought. Basically play looks more like a book than the typical RPG flow where the characters are always at each other's sides. As long as you have bangs that will affect each character, it's all good.

That's the basics. You'll note that Chris's good example is done just this way. He starts with relationships and values, stomps on them some to rile folks up, and then lets it all just go and work itself out. The rival tribe is just a bang that pressures players to consider the overall question of leadership in a timely fashion, for example.

What's really cool is that, once things are established, you just need to come up with a few new Bangs each session. You don't really write entire scenarios, just the precipitating events. As the characters evolve through play their new vaules will allow you to create bangs to ask questions about those values. As the player answers the questions, the character grows.

Mike

Hi Newt, Tom, and Chris,

Your replies are creative, intelligent, and thought-provoking. They are good replies. They are not at all the kind of response I expected. And this thread is not at all moving in the direction I planned. It doesn't matter. If I already knew the answers, I might just as well talk to myself. Please forgive me for not immediately recognizing the value and relevance of your posts. As a punishment I will perform the "How Eurmal Made Orlanth Eat His Hat" heroquest. Naturally, I will play the part of Orlanth.

Quote from: BankueiUpon re-reading of your posts, I realized I totally missed the boat on what you were saying.  Please forgive if I hijacked your thread there.

To clarify a bit:

Are you asking how to write a Narrativist scenario to be run by someone familiar with Narrativism, or for anybody?

For anybody, I guess. Or rather, for anybody familiar with HeroQuest and Glorantha.

Chris, can we use your scenario as a basis for the continuing discussion? I mean, would you mind making a detailed (and Gloranthan) version of the scenario a step at a time, publicly, so that we all can comment, ask questions, and come with suggestions?

And thanx for hijacking the thread with such a wonderful scenario idea! :-)

Cheers,

/Peter N

Hi Peter,

Works well for me.  I had owned a copy of Hero Wars some time back, but didn't manage to pick up any of the culture/background books, but only have the most incomplete knowledge of the backgrounds.  So, to make this happen, let's do this cooperatively.

I'm going to need some die-hard Glorantha-philes to pick a good culture to base this tribe out of, and produce appropriate names for the Chief and his two sons.  A list of potential names would work well for me to detail specific NPCs in the scenario and set up some nasty subconflicts.

Also, Peter, do you want the PCs to be pregenerated?

This would make it easier to hook in the conflict with less prep, but on the other hand, I've always been a fan of simply telling the players to pick relationships from the NPCs as I listed above.

Second, are we talking Con-scenario or play scenario?  The first type is pretty much going to limit the action to "Here's the problem, jump into the Heroquest" whereas the second type is probably going to last between 4-10 sessions depending on how folks want to spike the conflict and jump into some of the fun moral subplots as listed above, plus how much you want to go into fall out from success/failure of the Heroquest.  In other words, the first is a "mission", the second is strong enough to form its own story arc or campaign.

Finally, if we're talking about writing a Nar scenario that can be picked up and played by folks who may have never experienced Nar play, we'll need to include some "How to play this" advice into the scenario.  I'm not sure what Ron did for his scenario, but it'd be a good reference.  Otherwise I'd just crib my ideas from my rpg.net column and give them a simpler spin.

How's that all sound?

Chris

Hi all

Not got time for a long post at the moment , but just a quick suggestion.

It might be a good idea to use the Lhankor Mhy Research Libary over at the Issaries Inc site (http://www.glorantha.com/library/index_old.html) as a source of background, and give links to it as reference so that people who don't own the background, but are interested in following the thread can easily keep up with what is going on.

Later dudes

Hi,

A short first answer before I go to sleep.

Quote from: BankueiWorks well for me.

I am most pleased. And very enthusiastic, indeed.

Quote from: BankueiI had owned a copy of Hero Wars some time back, but didn't manage to pick up any of the culture/background books, but only have the most incomplete knowledge of the backgrounds.  So, to make this happen, let's do this cooperatively.

I'm going to need some die-hard Glorantha-philes to pick a good culture to base this tribe out of, and produce appropriate names for the Chief and his two sons.  A list of potential names would work well for me to detail specific NPCs in the scenario and set up some nasty subconflicts.

I suggest that we pick one of the 10 homelands from the upcoming HeroQuest book. We need a society where leadership positions are hereditary. I propose Seshnela. (There are other possibilities, however.) The Seshnegi are not a tribal people at all. They are your basic feudal society with knights, barons, counts, and dukes ruling a large population of bonded peasants. The King and the Ecclesiarch have joined forces to unite the kingdom and enforce the strict Rokari religion. "One God, One church, One King!" Social mobility is a sin. "To aspire beyond the limitations of one's caste is wicked, with the sinner sure to be punished in the hereafter" (Glorantha: Introduction to the Hero Wars, p. 39).

Thus, your tribal chief becomes Banneret Knight Eustaf.
His two sons--> Guilbert and Hugo?

Use semi-French/Latin names. Do you own Pendragon? Check out the French and Occitanian names (pages 105 & 106). I can make you a list if you wish.

Quote from: BankueiAlso, Peter, do you want the PCs to be pregenerated?

This would make it easier to hook in the conflict with less prep, but on the other hand, I've always been a fan of simply telling the players to pick relationships from the NPCs as I listed above.

I prefer it if the heroes (as PCs are called in HeroQuest) are not pregenerated. Character generation is fun! It is also the best way to involve the players from the start.

Quote from: BankueiSecond, are we talking Con-scenario or play scenario?  The first type is pretty much going to limit the action to "Here's the problem, jump into the Heroquest" whereas the second type is probably going to last between 4-10 sessions depending on how folks want to spike the conflict and jump into some of the fun moral subplots as listed above, plus how much you want to go into fall out from success/failure of the Heroquest.  In other words, the first is a "mission", the second is strong enough to form its own story arc or campaign.

I think that your ideas are too good to be wasted on mission-style play.

Quote from: BankueiHow's that all sound?

It sounds like candy.

Cheers,

/Peter N

Hi Peter,

I'm in full agreement about allowing players to create their own characters and going with longer range scenario than simply a one-shot.  With that in mind, I haven't been in possession of a copy of HW for about a year now, so my memory as to some of the concepts may be a bit off.

Here's what I've found on that culture:
http://www.issaries.com/library/dad/western.html

Let's start by defining the "major players" of the conflict-

Sir Eustef
Older man, perhaps late 40's-early 50's.  Tough, probably built like a blacksmith.  An astute pragmatist, who holds little illusions about the nature of power or those who would try to oust him.  Sir Eustef has managed to hold his position over his fief as a benevolent dictator through his ability to discern character, competence, and earn the loyalty and trust of good men.  He has also managed to hold his political rivals at bay through sharp manuevering and always having a trick up his sleeve.  Sir Eustef is a hardened man who is all too used to making hard decisions in life.

(Note if the following abilities are to grainy or can be lumped together for ease of listing, please let me know.   If there are preexisting terms, or more appropriate ones, likewise)

Abilities(in addition to his cultural ones)
Determined 15W
Judge of Character 10W
Assess Competency 10W
Leadership 10W
Old Guard(loyalty to him) 10W
Love for his people 10W
Love for his two sons 5W
Strategy 5W
Politics 5W
Intimidate 5W

Guilbert

Eldest son, next in line for control of fiefdom.  Guilbert is a young man in his mid 20's, well liked by the people.  While his father remained fairly distant, although seen as a fair ruler, Guilbert has always been a man of the people.  Vibrant, young, and full of energy, he's always been one to lead with his heart, more than his head.  While this has endeared him to the populace, his governing skills are not up to par. Not only that, but he is a bit hot-headed to those he believes underestimate him.

Abilities(aside from cultural)
Charismatic 5W
Well loved(by the people) 5W
Love for Eustef 3W
Spirited/Hotheaded 1W
Overconfident 15
Etiquette 1W
Politics 15
Strategy 15
Followers(rowdy idealistic young men) 15

Hugo

Younger son, quieter and of cooler head.  In his early 20's Hugo inherited his father's perceptiveness, if not his intimidating presence.  Hugo is the sort of young man who says little and tends to fade into the background, but picks up every nuance about a person or a situation in an instant.  He is well aware of the political turmoil that surrounds his house, and the various other knights who have been trying to find some political means of ousting their household.  Hugo is all too aware of what is at stake.  While he does believe in loyalty to his father, and the people, he also is acutely aware of the actions of his rivals.  He is afraid he may be forced to act in order to protect his house, just what that action is, well, he's not sure of just yet...

Abilities(aside from cultural)
Perceptive 10 W
Assess personality 5W
Strategy 5W
Politics 1W
Love for the people 1W
Love for Eustef 1W
Politics 1W
Swordfighting 1W

Like I said, its been awhile since I've seen the actual HW books, so if these numbers are off, any input would be welcome at this time.

Chris