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I hope this belongs here. I don't swim much in this end of the pool. I usually stick to "Publishing" and occassionally stick my toe into "RPG Theory".
But I think this one belongs here. My apologies in advance if I'm mistaken.

I recently took some heat in the Fantasy Races in FRPGs thread
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10006
over in RPG Theory.
Still, it was a thought provoking debate and I'd like to follow up on it and get some feedback, but this doesn't belong in that thread.

The following...
http://www.madelf.net/halflingsample.PDF
is a link to an excerpt from my game (in development), and is the write-up of the halfling race I was using as an example in that thread.

What I'm trying to do is address the issue of potentially racist content by comparing apples to apples. I can talk about what I'm saying all day, but showing is more to the point. That way you can see what I'm saying, as opposed to what I say I'm saying...I hope that makes sense.

So anyone who feels like taking a couple of minutes to look it over and give me your thoughts, please do.
If they turn out to be, "Okay, you're doing pretty good, but you should tone down this or that and address the other thing differently", then great.
If it's more a case of "Oh my god, what were you thinking? That's totally over the top and unacceptable, and you're going to have fine upstanding Irish people everywhere descending upon you in protest"...well, not so good. But probably something I need to know anyway.

I said that one should make some attempt to avoid being an asshat, so here it is.
Let the rocks fly.
:)

First impression.. These people are not halflings strongly based on the Irish... They're Irish strongly based on halflings.

Yes, I'm aware that it's closer to Irish stereotype, but that's not the point. You take more than the cultural personality because you take the names, and the basic relationships.

Is this a bad thing? I think no, not really. I've not met many true-blooded Irishmen. I HAVE met many "Irish-Americans" who are very proud of their culture, and most of them would jump at this race if asked to play your game.

If your intent is to make it obvious that the Halflings are the Irish in your world, then you're doing fine. It's an interesting take on Halflings, and I don't see it being offensive.. but then, I'm an American whose strongest claims to European blood are Scottish and German, and probably no small part English, and who identifies himself entirely as an American.. I despise the very concept of hyphenated-Americans.

Yes, Ireland is also called Eireann, so not quite the same...but close enough to be blatantly obvious.

I've debated myself about using the name Aieren. I've kept it so far primarily because I haven't yet come up with something better.
This particular one is the most obvious example of what I'm doing, so I thought it would be a good representative example simply by that extreme.
I figure if this one is inoffensive, then the others are likely to be as well.
Or I can hope so.

I have not used quite such obvious terminology elsewhere, but I have in several instances used terminology taken from the language of the source culture.

I'm not sure if I can say that it was my concious intent to make halflings the Irish of my world, but thinking about it in that way, it is true that they fill that role. In trying to simulate real cultural relationships, I have structured things in such a way that fantasy races do take the place of what would be a real race  or culture in our world. My thought process was based on creating races based on real cultures and I guess it does have to flow both ways.

Just to venture a guess (and I am a good 1/4 German mind you), would dwarves happen to be the Germans of your world? Thinking of stereotypes (more so of the older, like middle ages), germans are of the stout type, like good beer, can easily envision them with huge beards and the kind of gruff attitude that befits a dwarf...usually not the size, but the general (stereotypical) depiction seems to fit ^_^
Actually, I think that'd be fun myself...

Actually no, the dwarves are Scottish deriviatives.
A little too predictable I suppose, but they always seemed to be closely related to halflings in my mind for some reason. Scotland and Ireland strike me the same way, so that was the way I went.

For germanic-based peoples, all I've got are the Sorcerer Lords and serfs of Konigsheim (aka The Dread Empire) or the Giants of the Frozen North (aka the NordUlfr of RykrGardh). They are inspired by a feudal spin on Nazi germany mixed with blood magic, and Icelandic Vikings, respectively.

I have to agree though, German dwarves would be pretty darn cool.
I almost wish I'd thought of it.

Branch race then maybe? Could work ^_^ Especially considering not all 'races' are the same (homogeneous is the word I think I'm looking for). Having other members of the dwarf family would be fun~

In The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings it's pretty obvious that Hobbit culture is based on 19th century rural english culture. Is that racist? Why might basing Hobbit culture on rural Irish culture be any more or less racist?

I think the potential for racism only realy arrises if you present, or mis-represent a culture in a patronising or derogatory way.


Simon Hibbs

Quote from: simon_hibbsIn The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings it's pretty obvious that Hobbit culture is based on 19th century rural english culture. Is that racist? Why might basing Hobbit culture on rural Irish culture be any more or less racist?

I think the potential for racism only realy arrises if you present, or mis-represent a culture in a patronising or derogatory way.


Simon Hibbs

Well, thing is...I don't think my presentation is racist, I don't think the premise of basing my fantasy races on real-world cultures is racist.

The problem comes in with the idea of stereotypes. It's impossible to truly and accurately depict a people with the kind of depth that actually exists. So the fantasy races are really based on stereotypes, and stereotypes (as has been rather insistently pointed out to me) can cause offense simply by their existence.

For example the fictional stereotype, Halflings are perceived as heavy drinkers, based on the real world stereotype wherein the Irish are perceived as heavy drinkers. Being stereotype (and acknowledged as such) this does not mean that all halflings are heavy drinkers. I maintain that it also certainly does not indicate that, by reflection, I'm saying that all Irish are heavy drinkers. It has been suggested that I may be mistaken.

I just want to try and make sure that I do this in such a way that my writing doesn't even seem to make any sort of statement about the accuracy of the real-world stereotypes I am using as a springboard to my setting.

So "present, or mis-represent a culture in a patronising or derogatory way" is exactly what I want to make sure I am avoiding.
And I'm just trying to see if I'm on the right track.

OT: well, then, happy St. Froddy's Day, and don't be forgetting to wear the green!

Doctor Xero

Quote from: madelf
Well, thing is...I don't think my presentation is racist, I don't think the premise of basing my fantasy races on real-world cultures is racist.

Neither do I, and I think you'r doing fine.


Simon Hibbs

Again, I start with my "hmmm"-age, but as introduction to this...

Quote from: Charles Dickens"For it is not in Christian countries with the Jews as with other peoples," Mr. Riah reflects. "Men say, 'This is a bad Greek, but there are good Greeks. This is a bad Turk, but there are good Turks.' Not so with the Jews. Men find the bad among us easily enough -- among what people are the bad not easily found? -- but they take the worst of us as samples of the best; they take the lowest of us as presentations of the highest; and they say 'All Jews are alike.'"

This was written as Dicken's reaction to the perceived racism of the character Fagin in Oliver Twist, which caused him no end of pain (and, I notice, is still being trotted out as an argument by no less an expert than my colleague Ron Moody).

You put in a "fighting irish" hobbit, it's the fighting irish hobbit. You make every hobbit "fighting irish," it can start to look like you're implying the Irish are fighting drunk halflings... you boldly state "hobbits come from fake ireland, have red hair, drink lots of booze and love a good fight", and you look like you're outright saying the same thing about the irish.

The problem may be in the presentation. The excerpt, to my eyes, certainly looks like a belittling stereotype of the Irish with a cursory attempt to file the serial numbers off. Now, I'm willing to accept that the "belittling" part is probably in the eye of the beholder. What could help as a bit of a flame proof jacket is a bold statement up front along the lines of...

Quote from: Pete Darby's vast presumptionAs a moments notice will demonstrate, the fantasy races in this game are based on the strongest possible sterotypes of the nations of Europe.

In using these stereotypes, we're using a recognisable shorthand, not too different from that used in most fantasy games. Everyone "knows" elves are effeminate wood-guys with bows, dwarves are grumpy, axe-wielding miners, and you always check your wallet when a halfling enters the room.

Yes, yes, I know your PC's are fine exceptions to this, but we're talking about everyone else's characters, and everbody your character left at home, right?

So you know that all dwarves are grumpy axe weilding miners... apart from the ones that aren't.

Bingo.

We've only got a little space to describe each (nation/species/race/whatever), so bear with us. We've only got room for the stereotype... and we've decided to use the stereotypes from European nations.

Still not comfortable... okay, look at it this way: each of the short introductions is what a reasonably inquisitive, but not particularly well informed or well travelled person would "know" about that nation. Think about what, for example, a bright Londoner of the 18th century would know of the Irish. Yep, it's pretty much what you see in the section on halflings. No matter even if he knew a few Irish folk, and they weren't like that... it's what the Londoner would "know" the Irish, as a whole, were like.

Those sections are "in character" information for your PC, and we presume your ability to go beyond these stereotypes in your play, at least as far as you would in playing, say, an Irishman in a "real world" setting.

Of course, if you want every Halfling to be a fighting drunk redhead with religious tolerance problems... knock yourself out, we won't send the game police round to stop you. But equally, don't claim we made you do it if someone takes offence.

Jeez, that was arrogant of me to tell you what to put in... but you asked for the constructive...!

QuoteJeez, that was arrogant of me to tell you what to put in... but you asked for the constructive...!

Not arrogant all all. And helpful besides.

I had been thinking a bit of a disclaimer at the start of the race section might be well advised, to really drive home the point. I think your example is a very good one.

I might just borrow some elements of your "vast presumption" quote if you wouldn't mind.

well, take it wholesale... but I'd appreciate a mention somwhere if you do!

Quote from: pete_darbywell, take it wholesale... but I'd appreciate a mention somwhere if you do!

note to self...
Pete Darby gets added to the list of contributors.

Let me know if you want a more formal, or different, listing.
I'll probably actually use pieces and parts with some other stuff mixed in, but it's still appreciated.
Thanks.

An interesting thread, with alot of good discourse.

But one idea I haven't seen presented is this:

Calvin, why do you want to set up your world this way to begin with?  You've stated that you've chosen to go with various stereo types of European peoples.  My question is why.

You know this is a pandora's box, you're actively thinking about ways to reduce the negative feedback...why do it all?  What does your game gain by setting up races this way?

Is it just because this is a long time house campaign world and that's how your group did things?  I'm not sure this is really a sufficient reason.  You're feeling all warm and bubbly about the campaign world but those without the benefit of nostalgia aren't necessarily going to see it that way.  What does using racial stereo types gain you except making your game a target?

Whether its a legitimate target or not is immaterial...it will be a target, and people will label the game (and likely you, because that's how the internet is) racist.  

Why do you even want to walk into that maelstrom to begin with?

I mean, I could see it perhaps if you were trying to make a statement, like say All in the Family made; but I'm not seeing any of that...are you making a statement of some kind?

I'll be the first (and have been) to stand up and say the "racist" label gets thrown around far too easily today, but I guess I'm not really seeing the point of what you're trying to do.  It seems a little frivolous to me...ok, it actually seems a lot frivolous to me, which is why I'm asking the question.

Why make them Irish stereotypes to begin with?  Regardless of how people would or wouldn't respond, or what they should or shouldn't read into it, or what you can or can't do to mitigate it...what does your game gain from doing it at all?

I'm not seeing an upside here.