Yet Another Firefly (inspired) RPG?

sergeant_x · June 14, 2004, 05:34:41 AM

Hi everyone.

I've lurked here for a year or so. I'm an older gamer and haven't been heavily involved in the hobby for many years. My first experiences in gaming were with DnD, from there moving quickly on to Marc Miller's Traveller. I collected many games over the years, playing some of them, and reading the others mostly out of fascination with the various design approaches.

My enthusiasm for gaming was rekindled by the Joss Whedon series Firefly. No movie or television show I've seen comes closer to being a log from a roleplaying game than this series. It took me straight back to the wonder and excitement I felt running those first few Traveller campaigns.

But there were some obvious differences between the episodes of the series and the types of stories we played out in game sessions. The stories were heavily character oriented, and while the crew typically was faced with conflict similar to an RPG scenario, the most interesting moments were those that revealed a little more about who the characters were, as opposed to what they accomplished.

I got to thinking about this in game terms, trying to come to some understanding of why our game sessions usually didn't live up to this kind of drama. Obviously the writers and actors on a professionally produced television series will always have the edge when it comes to witty banter and moving scenes, but I felt roleplaying game rules could do more to promote depth of character and interesting dialogue.

The incentive issue seemed to be the key. I've had a few players over the years who would go the extra mile and play their characters in ways that didn't directly relate to the conflict at hand. But there's very little incentive for that kind of play in most games, and even those that do support it seem to do so as an afterthought, not as an integral part of play. (As I've stated, I haven't been active in the last few years and there are obviously many games I've overlooked, so please excuse my ignorance. I'm only commenting on what I've seen)

Anyway, I suppose I'm getting longwinded. My main point with the game I am designing is to restructure the usual incentive/reward structure to promote drama and dialogue closer to something we might see in good serial fiction. Rather than reward characters for skillful conquest, my thought was to reward players for interesting roleplaying.

In order to give players a fighting chance, I've developed a trait and exposition system designed to give them direction. Basically players adopt personality traits for their characters. They are then dealt cards from a standard poker deck as reward for exemplifying these traits in play. The cards are then used to build hands that can be played for various bonuses in play, more on that later.

Players are also encouraged to create secret traits for their characters – traits that the characters generally don't want other people to know. These might be darker details about the character but not necessarily so. When players manage to hint at these traits in play, they are dealt a wild card. The catch is, they are only able to play secret traits in this way so long as they remain secret. If most of the other players, or any of the principal NPC's, discover the true nature of their secret, it is no longer playable for wild cards. The idea is to promote character revelation in a gradual and hopefully intriguing way.

There are other ways to earn cards as well. I've tried to keep the whole system aimed at promoting roleplaying that isn't directly associated with 'defeating the bad guy'. There's plenty of incentive for that already. My goal is to give players a sort of 'improv script' that gives clear guidelines for what is desirable character development and exposition, but doesn't require any railroading in terms of plot.

The reward structure is probably best saved for another post, if you all think one is warranted. There are lots of other specifics I'd like to discuss here, but before that my question is this: Is this approach worth trying out? Has it been done before?

Anyway, thanks for reading this, and I'll apologize in advance for any blunders in etiquette. I'll be happy to modify my posting style to conform if asked.

EDIT: I have a working copy in PDF form that I'd be glad to e-mail anyone with an interest in reading it. It's called "Free Trader" for now, for lack of a better name.

greedo1379 · June 14, 2004, 06:24:00 AM

Quote from: sergeant_xHi everyone.

I've lurked here for a year or so. I'm an older gamer and haven't been heavily involved in the hobby for many years. My first experiences in gaming were with DnD, from there moving quickly on to Marc Miller's Traveller. I collected many games over the years, playing some of them, and reading the others mostly out of fascination with the various design approaches.

My enthusiasm for gaming was rekindled by the Joss Whedon series Firefly. No movie or television show I've seen comes closer to being a log from a roleplaying game than this series. It took me straight back to the wonder and excitement I felt running those first few Traveller campaigns.

I got the same feeling from watching Firefly. I would love to play an RPG set in the 'verse.

QuoteBut there were some obvious differences between the episodes of the series and the types of stories we played out in game sessions. The stories were heavily character oriented, and while the crew typically was faced with conflict similar to an RPG scenario, the most interesting moments were those that revealed a little more about who the characters were, as opposed to what they accomplished.

I got to thinking about this in game terms, trying to come to some understanding of why our game sessions usually didn't live up to this kind of drama. Obviously the writers and actors on a professionally produced television series will always have the edge when it comes to witty banter and moving scenes, but I felt roleplaying game rules could do more to promote depth of character and interesting dialogue.

The incentive issue seemed to be the key. I've had a few players over the years who would go the extra mile and play their characters in ways that didn't directly relate to the conflict at hand. But there's very little incentive for that kind of play in most games, and even those that do support it seem to do so as an afterthought, not as an integral part of play. (As I've stated, I haven't been active in the last few years and there are obviously many games I've overlooked, so please excuse my ignorance. I'm only commenting on what I've seen)

I would like to say that one of the real reasons there is such a problem with rewards systems involving character exposition / development is that the area is so subjective. I mean if you do 4 points of damage to the kobold it dies and the player gets 15 XP. How do you do something similar for good role playing?

QuoteAnyway, I suppose I'm getting longwinded. My main point with the game I am designing is to restructure the usual incentive/reward structure to promote drama and dialogue closer to something we might see in good serial fiction. Rather than reward characters for skillful conquest, my thought was to reward players for interesting roleplaying.

In order to give players a fighting chance, I've developed a trait and exposition system designed to give them direction. Basically players adopt personality traits for their characters. They are then dealt cards from a standard poker deck as reward for exemplifying these traits in play. The cards are then used to build hands that can be played for various bonuses in play, more on that later.

I think this is an interesting concept. Would there be other advancement rules like XP (or something like taht) as well? Or would you like to do away with all that and make it all cards only?

QuotePlayers are also encouraged to create secret traits for their characters – traits that the characters generally don't want other people to know. These might be darker details about the character but not necessarily so. When players manage to hint at these traits in play, they are dealt a wild card. The catch is, they are only able to play secret traits in this way so long as they remain secret. If most of the other players, or any of the principal NPC's, discover the true nature of their secret, it is no longer playable for wild cards. The idea is to promote character revelation in a gradual and hopefully intriguing way.

Once the character does something according to the secret trait won't that secret trait be known? Perhaps not the exact details but the gist of it? Jane's a double crosser. Once he double crosses everyone knows he's a double crosser. Right?

QuoteThere are other ways to earn cards as well. I've tried to keep the whole system aimed at promoting roleplaying that isn't directly associated with 'defeating the bad guy'. There's plenty of incentive for that already. My goal is to give players a sort of 'improv script' that gives clear guidelines for what is desirable character development and exposition, but doesn't require any railroading in terms of plot.

The reward structure is probably best saved for another post, if you all think one is warranted. There are lots of other specifics I'd like to discuss here, but before that my question is this: Is this approach worth trying out? Has it been done before?

I don't know what approach you are talking about. Rewarding proper role playing? The D6 Star Wars RPG had force points and character points. Force points were gotten by doing something particularly spectacular: putting yourself in a dangerous situation to help some innocent people, etc. The points were used to modify die rolls. Character points were awarded at the end of a session to reward a good session. They were used for advancement or to modify rolls. I really liked this way of doing things. There was no list of character traits though.

Quote
EDIT: I have a working copy in PDF form that I'd be glad to e-mail anyone with an interest in reading it. It's called "Free Trader" for now, for lack of a better name.

I'd be interested.

Basically I think you've got a good idea. I like the idea of assigning the character major traits. It reminds me of the alignment system for D&D (which I liked as a tool to help understand teh character, basically the same thing). Beyond that though I'm not sure such a system is really necessary. Assuming XP or similar is in your game at the end of a session when you assign them you just say "Betty did an awesome job playing his character. I could totally see that Inara was in love with Mal but her character is too strong willed and independant to want to get herself involved. She gets an extra 200 XP." Or something similar. Once your players realize that you do notice when they play well and reward them using the already present reward system adding a new reward system seems rather superfluous.

Of course, I'm looking at it from teh perspective of a lazy player and less of a game designer.

sergeant_x · June 14, 2004, 08:19:46 AM

Quote from: greedo1379
...I would like to say that one of the real reasons there is such a problem with rewards systems involving character exposition / development is that the area is so subjective. I mean if you do 4 points of damage to the kobold it dies and the player gets 15 XP. How do you do something similar for good role playing?

Thanks for the helpful comments.

What I'm working with currently is a set of roleplaying goals that will be more or less spelled out beforehand. This will be done with the profile traits and the secret traits, and with exposition sheets. I haven't mentioned these yet, but basically they're just itemized lists of information relevant to a given scenario. For example, the pilot's exposition sheet might mention that the Alliance rarely patrol's a certain area. When the pilot's player is able to introduce this fact through appropriate dialogue, he'll be dealt a card.

You've really hit on exactly what I'm trying to do, which is make the rolelplaying goals as explicit as practical.

Quote... Would there be other advancement rules like XP (or something like taht) as well? Or would you like to do away with all that and make it all cards only?

The plan is to do away with xp style skill/level advancement altogether. Characters in serial fiction don't generally make a steady climb to super heroism. Character improvement, if and when it happens, would be part of the play. This is one of the things I liked best about Traveller, though very few games followed up on it. In fact, I think the xp/level paradigm is one of the most unfortunate artifacts of early RPG design and one of the biggest flaws carried over to computer rpg's, but that's another topic.

QuoteOnce the character does something according to the secret trait won't that secret trait be known? Perhaps not the exact details but the gist of it? Jane's a double crosser. Once he double crosses everyone knows he's a double crosser. Right?

Not necessarily. His betrayal wouldn't necessarily be apparent. That's the challenge for a player, to act out these secret traits, but not give it all away.
A better example would be Book. Everytime he mentions some knowledge that a preacher shouldn't really know, he's playing a secret trait. I wanted a game mechanic that could allow players to have some level of intrigue. In most cases I'd hope it wouldn't be about betrayal, or backstabbing, but just a way to give characters backgrounds that are revealed over time.

QuoteI don't know what approach you are talking about. Rewarding proper role playing? The D6 Star Wars RPG had force points and character points. Force points were gotten by doing something particularly spectacular: putting yourself in a dangerous situation to help some innocent people, etc. The points were used to modify die rolls. Character points were awarded at the end of a session to reward a good session. They were used for advancement or to modify rolls. I really liked this way of doing things. There was no list of character traits though.

What I have set up so far is the notion of a 'storyboard'. This will be a list of all the hands players can make with their cards. Each hand will be keyed to a bonus. The bonuses default to various bonuses to attributes and skill rolls, but the real meat will be plot events, added during scenario design, that will give players interested in some control of the narrative a chance to manipulate things generally outside their influence. These might introduce prominent NPC's, trigger significant subplots, or give PC's access to some artifact or sage.... any number of things are possible.

Quote...Beyond that though I'm not sure such a system is really necessary. Assuming XP or similar is in your game at the end of a session when you assign them you just say "Betty did an awesome job playing his character. I could totally see that Inara was in love with Mal but her character is too strong willed and independant to want to get herself involved. She gets an extra 200 XP." Or something similar. Once your players realize that you do notice when they play well and reward them using the already present reward system adding a new reward system seems rather superfluous.

Since I am attempting to go without xp, I think it might work. And hopefully give players a little more of an idea of what they should do than just 'play well'.

One of the things I found intriguing about WEG's Star Wars first edition, was the scripted entries to adventures. For my groups the idea was a failure, but the notion of giving the players an inside track to dialog and banter seemed worthwhile. I sort of look at my goal here as trying to formulate a flexible script, that let's players decide which 'lines' they want to say and when, but gives them some clear idea of what kinds of things they should say.

I didn't make it clear in my first post, but I do intend to publish. At the very least as a downloadable PDF. In my wildest dreams everyone thinks its a great system, I find a wealthy backer and get the license from Mutant Enemy to actually call it a Firefly game. For now its just "Free Trader".

greedo1379 · June 14, 2004, 09:34:06 AM

QuoteThe plan is to do away with xp style skill/level advancement altogether. Characters in serial fiction don't generally make a steady climb to super heroism. Character improvement, if and when it happens, would be part of the play. This is one of the things I liked best about Traveller, though very few games followed up on it. In fact, I think the xp/level paradigm is one of the most unfortunate artifacts of early RPG design and one of the biggest flaws carried over to computer rpg's, but that's another topic.

OK, got it.

Quote
Not necessarily. His betrayal wouldn't necessarily be apparent. That's the challenge for a player, to act out these secret traits, but not give it all away.
A better example would be Book. Everytime he mentions some knowledge that a preacher shouldn't really know, he's playing a secret trait. I wanted a game mechanic that could allow players to have some level of intrigue. In most cases I'd hope it wouldn't be about betrayal, or backstabbing, but just a way to give characters backgrounds that are revealed over time.

You're right, Book is a much better example. :) I gotta those DVDs back from my buddy.

And really, I think everyone has known that Jayne is double crosser from the get go.

I think it might be interesting if, for the secret traits if you give them double the reward for a suitably dramatic "outing" before they finally lose that secret trait status. Just a thought.

Quote
What I have set up so far is the notion of a 'storyboard'. This will be a list of all the hands players can make with their cards. Each hand will be keyed to a bonus. The bonuses default to various bonuses to attributes and skill rolls, but the real meat will be plot events, added during scenario design, that will give players interested in some control of the narrative a chance to manipulate things generally outside their influence. These might introduce prominent NPC's, trigger significant subplots, or give PC's access to some artifact or sage.... any number of things are possible.

This is interesting. You're giving the players limited GM powers as a reward for good role playing (if I understand you right)?

QuoteI didn't make it clear in my first post, but I do intend to publish. At the very least as a downloadable PDF. In my wildest dreams everyone thinks its a great system, I find a wealthy backer and get the license from Mutant Enemy to actually call it a Firefly game. For now its just "Free Trader".

My wildest dreams usually involve more supermodels but whatever floats your boat.

So would the card hands be poker hands or what? Would a stronger poker hand give you more powers? Or am I just interpreting "poker deck" a little too literally?

sergeant_x · June 14, 2004, 10:55:06 AM

Quote from: greedo1379I think it might be interesting if, for the secret traits if you give them double the reward for a suitably dramatic "outing" before they finally lose that secret trait status. Just a thought.

I really like that idea. I think I'll try to incorporate that in some fashion.

QuoteSo would the card hands be poker hands or what? Would a stronger poker hand give you more powers? Or am I just interpreting "poker deck" a little too literally?

Poker hands are what I'm going with now, although others have suggested a more complex system where actual suits of cards are taken into account, with different suits affecting different types of results. But so far the storyboard just lists the basic poker hands... one pair, two pair, three of a kind, etc....

greedo1379 · June 14, 2004, 11:02:58 AM

Quote from: sergeant_x
Poker hands are what I'm going with now, although others have suggested a more complex system where actual suits of cards are taken into account, with different suits affecting different types of results. But so far the storyboard just lists the basic poker hands... one pair, two pair, three of a kind, etc....

I am a big believer in the KISS philosophy. I think breaking it down into suits, etc. is just more work than its worth. I think you could do something gimmicky though, make a special hand that isn't found in regular poker or something (Dead Man's Hand (aces and eights) for example). I don't have any ideas relating specifically to Firefly though.

Nicolas Crost · June 14, 2004, 11:28:58 AM

Hi sergeant, welcome to The Forge!

You should definitely check out Primetime Adventures by Matt Wilson. This might be exactly the game you are looking for. He even metiones Firefly as one of the series he was inspired by!

One thread I could find is this one:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=11351

Just ask him for a playtest copy.

sergeant_x · June 14, 2004, 07:47:26 PM

Quote from: Nicolas CrostHi sergeant, welcome to The Forge!

You should definitely check out Primetime Adventures by Matt Wilson. This might be exactly the game you are looking for. He even metiones Firefly as one of the series he was inspired by!

One thread I could find is this one:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=11351

Just ask him for a playtest copy.

That was one of the first games I checked out after finding the Forge. Excellent work indeed.

The players I know currently, and I suspect a good portion of the players out there, didn't feel comfortable with the heavy director's stance allowed. I was hoping to come up with something that would allow old school 'simulationsist' (if I'm using the term correctly) players to maintain their sense of existing in an imagined universe. That's one of the reasons I'm allowing for default bonuses from playing hands, so that players don't have to accept responsibility for the narrative if it doesn't suit them.

Matt Wilson · June 14, 2004, 07:59:23 PM

Hey Sarge:

Cool-sounding game (and thanks for the kind words on PTA).

I'm a firefly nut, obviously, and would love to see this game continue. You have a load of good ideas at work.

I'm especially interested in the improv script and maybe an example of how you and the players would use it in play.

Regarding the generation of hands: how does that work? How many cards do I start a game with? Is the reward system the only way to get additional cards in play?

Tell me more! More, damn you! More!

sergeant_x · June 14, 2004, 08:28:10 PM

Quote from: Matt Wilson...I'm especially interested in the improv script and maybe an example of how you and the players would use it in play.

Regarding the generation of hands: how does that work? How many cards do I start a game with? Is the reward system the only way to get additional cards in play?

Thanks for the encouragement.

The 'improv script' is just a term I've been using to refer to the set of ways that a player can get cards. So far this includes profile traits, secret traits, exposition and playing to a scenario theme. I still need to do a lot more playtesting before I can say for sure how all this will work. The few sessions I've had so far were promising.

I've decided to be pretty liberal about using these, allowing players to use them in desperation seemed a little too convenient at first, but after some thought, I could see nothing wrong with a little last minute revelation that would give a character the boost he needed to overcome an obstacle.

Currently the only way to get cards is through roleplaying, but you can keep cards between scenarios. Rather arbitrarily I have the hand sized limited to seven cards and with no more than one wildcard at a given time.

It just occurred to me that my email was not showing up here(just changed it). Anyone who would like a partially complete copy of what I'm working on, drop me a line, I'll gladly get one sent.

Henri · June 15, 2004, 01:45:18 AM

Regarding the secret traits, I like the fact that it is in the interest of the player to drop hints without giving it all away, but I wonder if maybe they should continue to be able to get bonuses for following through with it. Obviously you had Book in mind, and it works great for him. But it doesn't work as well for Jeyne or Inara. It is obvious from the start that Inara has a crush on Mal and that Jeyne is a double-crosser. The secret is out, very much for the audience, and for the more perceptive characters. But it is because it is out that it creates dramatic tension, which is what makes the story engaging. In every scene with Inara and Mal, there is this blatantly obvious subtext. Inara is aware of it, the audience is aware of it, but Mal is totally clueless. It is the subtext, not the text, that grabs the audience's attention, and the fact that Mal is so clueless that makes it amusing.

I'm not sure exactly how to do this, but I feel like the system needs to be able to accomodate both characters with real secrets, like Book, and characters with "secrets" that everyone knows, like Inara.

sergeant_x · June 15, 2004, 04:19:22 AM

Quote from: HenriRegarding the secret traits, I like the fact that it is in the interest of the player to drop hints without giving it all away, but I wonder if maybe they should continue to be able to get bonuses for following through with it. Obviously you had Book in mind, and it works great for him. But it doesn't work as well for Jeyne or Inara. It is obvious from the start that Inara has a crush on Mal and that Jeyne is a double-crosser. The secret is out, very much for the audience, and for the more perceptive characters. But it is because it is out that it creates dramatic tension, which is what makes the story engaging. In every scene with Inara and Mal, there is this blatantly obvious subtext. Inara is aware of it, the audience is aware of it, but Mal is totally clueless. It is the subtext, not the text, that grabs the audience's attention, and the fact that Mal is so clueless that makes it amusing.

I'm not sure exactly how to do this, but I feel like the system needs to be able to accomodate both characters with real secrets, like Book, and characters with "secrets" that everyone knows, like Inara.

I'm not really kidding myself that we'll be able to capture every nuance of character interaction in a rules system. But that being said, I like your suggestion and it's got me thinking. I'd like to get a little more playtesting in and get a better grasp of how realistic the basic concept is. We might be able to find ways to get at the kinds of situations you've mentioned.

Thor · June 15, 2004, 03:29:25 PM

Henri Wrote

QuoteRegarding the secret traits, I like the fact that it is in the interest of the player to drop hints without giving it all away, but I wonder if maybe they should continue to be able to get bonuses for following through with it. Obviously you had Book in mind, and it works great for him. But it doesn't work as well for Jeyne or Inara. It is obvious from the start that Inara has a crush on Mal and that Jeyne is a double-crosser. The secret is out, very much for the audience, and for the more perceptive characters. But it is because it is out that it creates dramatic tension, which is what makes the story engaging. In every scene with Inara and Mal, there is this blatantly obvious subtext. Inara is aware of it, the audience is aware of it, but Mal is totally clueless. It is the subtext, not the text, that grabs the audience's attention, and the fact that Mal is so clueless that makes it amusing.

Not to be too much of a firefly geek, but in one of the commentaries on the DVD, we are told that there is a clue to Inara's real secret. Inara's real secret is something she only hinted at in season one and was going to be further explored in season 2. I have my suspicions as to what it was, but it ain't that she loves Mal.

Jane also has secrets that aren't that he's a double crosser. There are some fairly big hints that he is plain afraid of Reavers; and there are other more subtle things like his sniffing things.

If you can capture this number and complexity of secrets. you might have a game that keeps on giving.

I am also working on a Firefly like game but put off any attempts to capture the group dynamic in the rules. so my hat is off to you.

Thor

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