The Forge Archives

I've played in a boffer based Fantasy Larp for a few years and have found that I personally like the Boffer based combat resolutions. However, I've been thinking of running a boffer based larp and have tried to find as many pros and cons to the system as possible. Any additional input to this list would be welcomed.

Pros

Simplicity: As long as the numbers are low(HP)/results simple(hit to area x disables x), the action keeps going and there is very little disruption to 'real time' in the game.

Atmosphere: Combat feels real when it's really happening. Funny, but true.

Simulation of weapon ability: In some respects, it's a lot easier to tell whether a spear's reach has advantage when you actually are using it versus discussing how to simulate it with dice.

Cons

Biased: Better fighters are better fighters. If you play a warrior but fight like crap, numbers manipulation will not always save you.

Simulation of weapon ability: Its not easy to simulate an axe splitting a shield when it hits 'right' when they are both made of foam and it's left to a judgement call. Some weapons cannot be used as they would be considered unsafe, such as most curved blades as they could cause someone to trip.

GM control elimination: NPCs and PCs are the only ones to be deciding what happens once combat begins.

General Info Stuff

For those who are unfamiliar with boffer combat, some brief explanation. Simply put, boffer combat is the use of foam weapons to simulate fighting. A swing of the weapon that hits is considered a hit. A swing that misses is considered to miss. Boffers can also include using things like tennis balls to represent spells thrown, shields, and anything else that can be a safe physical combat.

From LARP to LARP, how much contact can be made or how hard these swings can be are different. Some are hard core, and tackling ones opponent and beating them on the head are fine. Most are much less extreme than this, with a few allowing no real hitting, though I don't understand how these are still weapon based.

Most of the boffer LARPs use hitpoints. A weapon subtracts a certain amount of hitpoints when it makes contact with another player. Many systems also make use of special hits that have special effects that must be roleplayed such as paralysis, sleep, hamstringing, or even death.

OK, I'll warn you first that I've never tried boffer LARPs, I've only heard from people playing them. I do a lot of Camarilla style LARPs, so my background is very much based around skill based games with a randomiser system.

Problems I have with boffer LARPs (strictly my opinions):

Trapped in a genre

There's not an awful lot you can do with a boffer larp that includes ranged combat beyond bows and crossbows. If you want to handle cyberpunk/modern/sci-fi then a boffer combat system is not an awful lot of use (unless you design the setting to have reverted back to hand to hand combat).

Hard to use in-door locations

It's very hard to hire a location that isn't "in a woods some where" for a boffer LARP. You certainly wouldn't be able to hire any of the scottish castles and expect them to let you use boffer combat inside with all those antiques.

Methodology Clash

Either you design a rules system that is totally based around what the players can do or you end up having two different rules systems, one for fighting and one for non-combat skills.

People hit me

And stick weapons in my face. To me that's just a definite no-no. There are a lot of people out there that just would never consider playing in a boffer LARP no matter how good a game it is.

Lot's of people have done it already.

Your market is already saturated with LARP rules, some of which are available comercially.

Heartbreakers

Have a good read of http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/.

As far as I can tell almost every boffer LARP system is actually a Heartbreaker based on some of the older LARP systems. Are you actually going to do anything new, or just go over the same old things slightly differently?


Advantages of running a boffer LARP (again my opinions):

Beyond the ones you've listed, these two came to mind.

Biggest Market Share

Fantasy larps eat up 68% of the demand for LARPing in the US. You really can's knock that demand. It's almost guarenteed you'll get players and that they will pay to play.

High player expendature

Fantasy LARPers are willing to pay a lot of money in order to play a game compared to most other LARP styles. You also have the added advantage of them playing regularly.

Hi,

That's a good summary of a basic LRP combat system, but without knowing how the system handles hits and other resolutions you can miss a lot.

Some systems have tweaks that reallly impact the "Your character is as good as you" problems. For example, some demand that you telegraph your blows, so as to make it more cinematic, and also make it easier for the in-experienced to respond.

LRP combats vary an awful lot (and that's just in the UK, I'd imagine they vary more across the world). So I'd be interesting to know which variants you'd tried.

-Matt

Hi Mindwanders. It's interesting to see an external view, especially from a regular mindseye player. I've played in both styles of LARP, so here's a few things that struck me from your list:

Quote from: mindwandersTrapped in a genre

This is only ture to a degree. I know people who've adapted Vampire to a LRP style, for example. I play in one Blackpowder setting that uses cap firing flintlocks. Like any system there are ways you can push it so that it works in the setting you want. I've heard of paintball and lasertag based systems for cyberpunk in the past. That doesn't mean it's always ideal for each setting, just that it is more adaptable than many expect.

Quote
Hard to use in-door locations

Some stuff happens in woods, but plenty doesn't. There's quite a few youth hostels, other rentable old buildings, and other locations that are available. It's like saying that all Vampire games happen in the back rooms of pubs. True, but only to a degree. Finding good venues for LARPs of all kinds is an art...

Quote
Methodology Clash

Now this is a very good point. Many LRP systems suffer from mixed resolution. And if they're not careful can get horribly tied up in knots. Like many games with a heavy Simulation bent, some systems I've seen have a rule for every exception.

Most seem to split it between combat abilities, and non-combat abilities. Much like many TT games. But if done badly it can disjoint horribly, or result in high GM-handling time. Good LRP systems work from the point of "what's important here", much like good RPGs in general.


-Matt

Quote from: Matt
This is only true to a degree. I know people who've adapted Vampire to a LRP style, for example. I play in one Blackpowder setting that uses cap firing flintlocks. Like any system there are ways you can push it so that it works in the setting you want. I've heard of paintball and lasertag based systems for cyberpunk in the past. That doesn't mean it's always ideal for each setting, just that it is more adaptable than many expect.

Oh, yeah. I totally agree with you. But you were talking about boffer combat systems rather than laser tag. I'd imagine that you are looking at totally different rules for something like that.

Quote
Some stuff happens in woods, but plenty doesn't. There's quite a few youth hostels, other rentable old buildings, and other locations that are available. It's like saying that all Vampire games happen in the back rooms of pubs. True, but only to a degree. Finding good venues for LARPs of all kinds is an art...

Yeah. I agree. But it's also safe to say that a Boffer LARP is not going to take place in the back room of most pubs :-) My point wasn't really that it rules out locations, more that you need to take the rules system into account when picking your location.

Quote
Now this is a very good point. Many LRP systems suffer from mixed resolution. And if they're not careful can get horribly tied up in knots. Like many games with a heavy Simulation bent, some systems I've seen have a rule for every exception.

Most seem to split it between combat abilities, and non-combat abilities. Much like many TT games. But if done badly it can disjoint horribly, or result in high GM-handling time. Good LRP systems work from the point of "what's important here", much like good RPGs in general.

There are some systems out there that I've heard people talking about that have gone the other way and only use skills that the player has. I've also heard of some very clever prop design that allows lock picking and stuff without relying on skills.

As with most systems, you probably want to decide what you want your larp system to do, whether it's to form a backdrop for fantasy politics, allow for live D&D or whatever.

When designing LARP systems I've found it best to focus on what the core of the game is, and design around that.

Quote from: mindwanders
Trapped in a genre

There's not an awful lot you can do with a boffer larp that includes ranged combat beyond bows and crossbows. If you want to handle cyberpunk/modern/sci-fi then a boffer combat system is not an awful lot of use (unless you design the setting to have reverted back to hand to hand combat).

Hard to use in-door locations

It's very hard to hire a location that isn't "in a woods some where" for a boffer LARP. You certainly wouldn't be able to hire any of the scottish castles and expect them to let you use boffer combat inside with all those antiques.

Methodology Clash

Either you design a rules system that is totally based around what the players can do or you end up having two different rules systems, one for fighting and one for non-combat skills.

People hit me

And stick weapons in my face. To me that's just a definite no-no. There are a lot of people out there that just would never consider playing in a boffer LARP no matter how good a game it is.

Well, I'm very glad some of this has been brought up. As far as genre conventions go, I think nerf weaponry makes for pretty good sci-fi weaponry.

I agree that unless you have a sturdy in door location, indoors is definitely a bad place to be. Not too worried about the castles though, cvonsidering I'm in America. :)

The methodology clash is entirely true, but not what I would consider a problem or drawback, just a fact. I plan on it and actually prefer it for the most part.

Yes, people hit you. If you don't like the physical aspect of it then it's just a preference. I see advantage in other larp combat styles, but this is one drawback. The physicality of it will disclude those with disabilities, heart conditions, not like getting hittedness, etc.

Quote from: MattSome systems have tweaks that reallly impact the "Your character is as good as you" problems. For example, some demand that you telegraph your blows, so as to make it more cinematic, and also make it easier for the in-experienced to respond.

I hadn't heard of this resolution system, but it sounds like a good idea in certain cases. I could definitely see it being worthwhile to make sure certain key story elements (narrativist style) came about the way a GM might want it to.

I may post up what I have planned out as far as my system later. Its a hit point system, but it has some originality to it.

A question as much as a comment:  but does the combat in boffer LARPs tend to make the game revolve around combat instead of intrigue & diplomacy?

This is either a pro or a con, depending on what sort of game you want; but if the boffer weapons & fighting influence the game in that way, you want to be aware of it and design with that in mind.

Well, I've found there is a mix of cliques in the LARP I play. I think a good deal of them resulted from the fact it has no focus as far as G/N/S goes.

There are those who are deep in the political game with their different groups and organizations in the game. There are alliances, rivalries, tense situations between elves and humans(very fragile peace), and definite goals that the groups held. So, I guess it didn't prevent the politics from happening.

However, there were also those who sat around a fire, waiting for random encounters and NPCs to fight, BSing about non-game stuff in the mean time. So, on some fronts, it didn't prevent politics, but it did attract gamers whose interests lied in fighting more than RPing.

I started this mostly to see what people thought of Boffers as far as them being a legitimate system for resolution. So far, it seems that most make the natural assumption that they tend to make the games a little more combat based, and that they don't work as a resolution system for non-combat resolutions. Which I have to agree, because I don't really want a disarm trap action to be represented by me fighting a guy in a lock costume.

Using a combat resolution mechanic (i.e. boffer combat) as a resolution for non-combat situations doesn't make much sense to me. So, there's my answer to your central question, Gamskee.

I think live combat resolution mechanics (which I will refer to as "boffer combat" for simplicity) do strongly encourage combat and tend to keep the games focused on it. It's the reason I don't do combat LARPs much anymore. And another trend that I believe contributes to the combat focus is that death is easily cured in most of these games. Why hesitate to handle any situation with combat, when you'll just be resurrected at the local graveyard in an hour?

If you're interested in ranged, modern weapons in boffer combat, do a search online for "action soft" and you'll get a bunch of interesting stuff. There's a LARP that uses it along with melee combat running somewhere in the East, I believe.

As to the realistic nature of the games, I totally agree. My heart still gets thumping when I remember the time I was scouting the woods at night, looking for signs of an attack. There was mist everywhere, and I could hear a large group marching somewhere around me, but couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from. When I realized I was in the path of an oncoming army (trust me, even 50 people seems like a real army when you're alone in the dark woods), I had just enough time to throw myself to the ground and wrap my cloak around me to break up my outline. Some of those guys walked on my cloak, they came so close to stepping on me. I tell you, I just about pissed my pants that night. I have never been in any table-top game that created that level of exitement.

About the idea of "telegraphing" your moves, I don't see how that'd work. Even for people used to being in sparring situations, it's still hard to keep your mind on the combat, keep track of what abilities have been used or are in play, and remember how much damage you've taken. Creating a required disruption of your body's movement would just be too much to handle for the vast majority of people, I think. All you're really doing is giving the players who are skilled a handicap. And how would you handle feints, with this system? Telegraph a feint, telegraph the real attack, then really attack? It'd almost never work.

QuoteThere are those who are deep in the political game with their different groups and organizations in the game. There are alliances, rivalries, tense situations between elves and humans(very fragile peace), and definite goals that the groups held. So, I guess it didn't prevent the politics from happening.

Have a look at the two threads I started a while back:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=12124
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=12129

Over the course of the discussion one of the main things we inferred was that it's very easy for small groups of players to drift a set of LARP rules to the point they are playing a different game from the rest of the players. This can be a good thing, but is often a bad thing in the long term (no one fixed Creative Agenda, so people interfere with each others goals for playing the game).

QuoteI think live combat resolution mechanics (which I will refer to as "boffer combat" for simplicity) do strongly encourage combat and tend to keep the games focused on it. It's the reason I don't do combat LARPs much anymore. And another trend that I believe contributes to the combat focus is that death is easily cured in most of these games. Why hesitate to handle any situation with combat, when you'll just be resurrected at the local graveyard in an hour?

Again it's very much a case of poor/good design focus. I've heard of a fantasy game over here in the UK (I'll try and look up the name) that uses boffer combat but is very politically slanted. This is purely because it also included rules to promote politics rather than just combat. I believe the amount of combat is very low and that the game uses very few "monsters".

If you design the rules to promote a specific style of play and actually slant all your game info towards it, you can actually get your Social Contract working properly and reduce the amount of players that drift to unproductive styles of play.

As with most game design, the first question you should be asking is "what do I want my players to do?". Only when you know that can you design a system that allows and promotes the kind of game you want.

Pros

- Very simple

- Very fun

- Real-time (for those who know the endless chi fu mi combat phases of Mind's eye).

- can reinfrce the "real life" feeling

Cons :

- security issues. Well, there is no actual risk provided strict security measures are completely repsected. But make sure that they ARE completley respected. A few intangible rules :
 * no shots aimed to the head. A shot in the head counts for zero, at best (thereby no incentive).
 * A parry with the head, on the other side, causes immediate death of the character. On the same aspect, any try to take advantage of safety rules for in game advantege should be strictly sanctionned
 * strict respect for gaming zone (no fight indoor next to the collection of chinese vases)
 * no shots with  the "estoc" part of the weapon. Pinching is forbidden
 * no physical contact other than through weapons. This mean no grappling and no weapon grabbing
 * every weapon has to be validated by organizers.
 * no real weapon has to to be tolerated in the gaming zone. Even for decorative purpose. This is a very strict ban.
 * moderate use (or no use) of alcohol or illicit substances
 * an insurance policy should be taken
 * if these rules seem you to problematic or impossible to enforce, drop boffer weapons.

- Price issues.

- Requires outdoor space. Or at list a wide, unhinabited, indoor space

- The fun part of fencing can mae the scenario become temporarily a second center of interest (Far behind "backstabbing Joe")

Go for what works best for your genre and players.  

One advantage not listed so far of Boffer larps is the adrenaline factor.  You get a real feeling of danger when the monster is charging you with padded claws out that you just don't get from rock-paper-scissors.

In my opinion, you need to decide what your game needs and what your players want.  Do you want to run a futuristic game with a highly detailed, complex laser gun fighting system?  Then you may want to look at something other than boffer.

Do you want to run a lower tech larp with a focus on combat and verisimilitude?  Then boffer may be better for you.

Are your players in good shape and willing to get out there, run around and hike, or do they prefer the creature comforts of air conditioning and indoor plumbing?

Are you willing to invest the time to build the weapons and costumes you'll need?  Do you have someone who can work tech to do that?

Right now I'm playing in a boffer horror campaign set in the 1920s.  We use "gummy" guns that shoot small rubber things pretty accurately.   The problem is that the handguns are only available in England (and we're in America) and they are expensive.

Boffer games are fun, good exercise, and can offer a thrill, but don't go with them because they are "cool," go with them because their mechanic works well with the game you want to present.

This is going to sound like a shameless plug for a system, and to a certain extent it is.  Most of the boffer LARPs I've played in (including the aforementioned one using Action Soft foam-pellet guns) run under the nTeraction system, developed by Rob Ciccolini, who runs the nTeraction flagship game Madrigal (http://www.larp.com/madrigal/).  I highly recommend it and its derivatives - the game I actually play in as opposed to NPC is another nTeraction game, Aralis, which uses a modified character creation mechanism but the same resolution mechanism.

Incidentally, nTeraction is an indie-rpg, as the whole IP is owned by Rob.

I don't have enormous and extensive experience with boffer LARPs, but from what I've seen over the past two years, the most important things for a boffer LARP are:

- Maintain the 'You Are There' feeling.  This means having as few calls (i.e. out-of-game statements for rules purposes) as possible.  One nice thing that the nTeraction system does is make each normal weapon blow equivalent to 'one hit point' worth of damage, so you don't have to give any calls when swinging normal blows.  This makes it much easier to get in there and fight without the constant slightly-out-of-game calls going off with every swing - it also makes it easier to tell what's happening in a big melee.

- Safety.  The whole 'no head shots' thing is a good idea, etc.  Safety should be the primary concern of a boffer LARP, mostly because it's not hard to get out of the way if you do it right.

- Flexibility.  Unless you're running a very straightforward game, you probably want to have a simple and clean method of simulating different effects which are easily interpretable.  Again, I have little experience with systems other than nTeraction, but for instance:  The 'Agony' call, when it hits, causes the target to roleplay being in intense pain for a 10-count, and be unable to use any offensive skills for that time.  However, in nTeraction, each type of effect is followed by a 'by X', where X is the delivery trait.  So you can have 'Agony by Fire', which is considerably different from an in-game perspective than an 'Agony by Light' although the system is the same, which people can react to differently through roleplaying.  One of my favorite memories is of hitting a fellow I knew with a 'Disarm by Fire' and having him scream, wave his shield around, and toss it to the ground while blowing on his arm.

Anything else depends on what you want your players to get out of the game.  The one I play is very intense, with every character knowing that they've only got a few 'get out of Death free' cards, and very high-intensity.  A good third of the PCs die every session, at least.  This makes the game seem very tense and fraught with danger, especially since there are actual long-term consequences to dying.  This has some problems, though - for instance, we end up running away a lot - but when combined with the 'You Are There' feeling of actually larping with weapons in hand for upwards of 36 hours it makes for a wonderfully intense experience.

Some of the issues mentioned earlier don't seem like issues to me - for instance, the 'lack of GM control over resolution' is only a problem if you A: think your players or NPCs are cheating or B: want to railroad people.  Believe me, there's enough opportunity to railroad in a boffer LARP without having to observe everything.

Boffer LARPs lack a lot of things that tabletop games can take for granted, so it's best to focus very, very intently on the things that boffer LARPs do better than tabletops (like verisimilitude) and run with that.

Quote from: JinxSome of the issues mentioned earlier don't seem like issues to me - for instance, the 'lack of GM control over resolution' is only a problem if you A: think your players or NPCs are cheating or B: want to railroad people. Believe me, there's enough opportunity to railroad in a boffer LARP without having to observe everything.

Well its not so much cheating as forgetting purpose. I played in a large mob of maurading orcs(twenty or more) and was given a few basic instructions.

1. You speak only orc.
2. No 'death blows' unless it's an elf or a barbarian.

These two 'rules' of our NPC's were violated within the first two waves. Now, this isn't always a problem if everyone listens and remembers, but in large groups, you usually end up fielding quite a few people who will choose to do what they wish once they are given their stats and the go ahead to fight.

QuoteAbout the idea of "telegraphing" your moves, I don't see how that'd work.

Well, it's not that big a deal really. Most systems with this kind of ruling require "big swings", to make combat look better and allow less experienced people to parry and so on.  People are often cynical about such systems before trying them, but  they do work. To some extent it's a creative agenda issue, is the resolution there to look cool or provide "realism"? Such rulings work best if #1 is the aim.

-Matt