The Forge Archives

As mentioned in this thread, a group effort of design will take place in this thread.

This thread is for a System and Setting brainstorm. YES, this can involve such abstract thoughts as 'system is not needed' or 'setting is not needed', but make sure you keep it focussed on this game, in that case, and do not devolve into a generic discussion. In other words, meta-thoughts and concepts SPECIFIC to this game are very welcome.

As to the rules of brainstorming: everything goes. Really. No idea is bad, ESPECIALLY not the idea you think sucks as you read it - because that strong reaction will be the cause of lots of creativity. Critical evaluation is a step that's still in the future.

I will occasionally summarise the 'concepts so far' and try to note the relative interest that's been generated for them. There are several brainstorm techniques available to get creative juices flowing, but I'll try to keep it focused somwhat. So, we'll run 2 parallel things in this thread:

1. Shout out whatever you want from this game, System and Setting wise (the on-topic brainstorm)

2. Try to 'top' the last poster's definition of the 'best' possible game. Note: this is not disagreement with the last post: the post you make has to improve, expand upon the last definition.

So, kicking off (how appropriate):

1.

- Simple rules, interaction gives complex play
- Innovative
- Tries to avoid dice where possible
- Setting where you play more than 'just one character'.
- Borrow a page from CCG: perhaps not all rules/options need to be in one central book.

2.

The best possible game is one where the rules work, at least. (Yes, I can go 'bigger' than that, but it's a kickoff).

Welcome!

Okay, i guess i will chime in...

1. I like the CCG suggestion.  Some sort of modular rule system.  Provide a basic resolution system that can work for everything, and then provide some rule "modules" to expand or focus on certain game/setting elelments.  For example, a high(er)-detailed magic ruleset for people who want to focus on magic.
2. I have alwasy been fascinated with the idea of using some sort of bluffing mechanic for resolution.  There have been a couple discussed here on the Forge which i will try to post later.  Anyway, i think it would be pretty cool to include some bluffing, and i feel that it would lend itself well toward modularity as you can change the way odds are calculated or bets are made or whatever.
3. I still really like the idea of a meta-hook or a meta-plot (but not in the WW sense).  Basically what i am talking about is a system in which the same basic story is played out with every session.  We would not want anything too specific, but i believe this could also be a powerful tool.  Examples from Western literature tend to fall within folk-tales and fables.  Consider Little Red Riding Hood, there are easily 50 to 100 different version of this story which have different morals, different outcomes, entirely different characterizations.  So, could we provide a couple of characters (with very general outlines) and a basic plot to follow?  I trust the players could generate some incredibly fascinating permutations of this story.

Thomas

Okay, Tobias, your idea of playing more than one character sparked a few ideas:

First is that the "characters" are personalities. So the characters all have multiple personality disorder. This could mean that players switch characters (personalities) within the same physical body, or players switch control of the physical bodies as the different personalities take control.

Second, the characters are some sort of alien/cyborg capable of switching bodies or altering their personalities for specific tasks. Or they could control multiple bodies at the same time with the same personality.

Third, the players each play a nation through the luminaries of that nation (ambassadors, military leaders, etc.) and are free to switch characters as needed.

Fourth, the players take the roles of nobles in a fantasy setting...and they also play the retainers of the other nobles.

Fifth, something along the lines of the Lensmen series: the player's characters are humans, with a sort of guardian angel in the form of a super-powerful non-corporeal alien entity that is capable of temporarily taking over ("energizing") the humans to combat another equally powerful alien race.

Sixth, you play a family, following it through the course of generations as it strives for some very long-term goal. Rather than playing multiple characters at the same time, you switch to the next of kin when your current character dies (from old age, or anything else). Obviously, in-game time would have to pass much faster than real time in this concept.

The "avoiding dice" concept didn't get as many ideas flowing, but it did raise a couple of questions, especially whether you mean avoiding just dice, or any Fortune mechanic.

About not having all the rules centralized, the only thought I had on that was that perhaps we have a general set of rules, then a bunch of special powers that alter the basic rules in specific ways.

I have been working for years to play a character who is as weak and tempted as I am and find within him the power to be heroic as an example to myself and others. I know it is horribly sim of me, but I have been thinking a lot since I read the Wuthering Heights RPG that I want a system that makes it feel right for a character to do something self-destructive from within the character rather than because some die roll said you were an alcoholic, or so that you could gain some other power.  One of the things I like about Sorcerer is that there is an addiction like mechanism; what I don't like is that it is designed from outside (authorially) rather than based on what the character wants and needs. I want a system where doing the wrong thing gets the character something they need even if it's going to kill them in the long run; and where a player would want to put their character into these sort of predicaments for enjoyment.

So I was driving home when a thought hit me... what happened in Tokio in 1968? "I don't know" was the answer... so let me explain.

Narrator is the king of a strange realm, the questions realm. Every now and then he asks a question such "What happened in the strange shadows cave six centuries ago?"

Players are the Archivists. They can browse a huge archive (book, internet, necromancers, nature forces...) to get the answer. Yes, but the archive is never complete, so they have to go out and investigate.

Setting could be as strange as possible... dreamland, strange planets and so on. Oh, you said multiple characters. The achivists could be only a man thought, they has no shape, but they can borrow a human body. Half archivist half human with half archivist porpose and half human purpose.

Resolution could be "Tarots like". We can think to a series of "Narration cards" or "Situational cards".

...

The best possible game is one where player can decide story elements too.

Jedi, that's pretty cool. Sort of like an Eternal Darknes-style living through the experiences of people from different times and places in order to get the whole picture?

Some cool ideas!

Thor - you're sparking me into thinking maybe player-defined growth or challenge paths could be an option? So that the rules allow the player to  cobble together specific goals, challenges, etc.? It might even allow for the different creative agenda's to be present - each character/player getting rewarded exactly for the type of play they desire...

The Archivists, and some of the other options for 'what if you're not just 1 character' sound really cool too! The nation-through luminaries thing is something that was spooking through my mind... as was the cyborg thing (this then developed into the 'group life' thing that I posted in another thread). And of course there's some similarities betweens lensman/archivists, right?

Okay, I've nominated myself to make sure anyone coming into this discussion without having seen the original thread knows what's up with the self-imposed rules. Currently the rules for participating in this project are as follows:

1. Tobias will start all new threads on this project.
2. Tobias will have pseudo-moderator status with all participating members in all project threads (so, for example, he can give someone a time-out for posting, or end threads if they derail into arguments, etc.).
3. During the brainstorming session, Tobias will occasionally post a quick bulleted list of the ideas so far, to make sure nothing gets lost in the discussion. Alternately, Tobias can pass this responsibility to another one of the participants.
4. Any participant is free to call for a vote in order to resolve a dispute, but Tobias must agree to a vote before participants cast their vote. Tobias can provide summary arbitration instead of allowing a vote. In the case of a tie, Tobias will arbitrate a decision. All participants must agree to abide by a vote outcome or arbitration by Tobias.

Posting to this thread implies acceptance of these rules, so don't get bent out of shape if Tobias makes a ruling or something. Also, participants are free to suggest changes to these rules, but that should be done in the original thread.

Amazing. Just a few posts and a cool core concept is starting to solidify. As I'm beginning to see it:

1.
Each player takes on the role of an Archivist -- a kind of disembodied spirit guardian.
Recommendation: Archivists used to be people. They're ghosts, in essence. That way they can have some individuality and some history and in general some human-ness for players to get into, alongside the alienness of being a cosmic being that jumps bodies. (Doesn't Nobilis do this?)
That said, a lot of an Archivist's human past should probably be lost to him on ascension to Archivist status. Maybe there's some level of amnesia (so, ironically, an Archivist may have to look up his own past in the Archives), and certainly there's a loss of the physical self and all the simple pleasures that go with it. There is a lot of roleplay potential in (a) grieving for one's lost humanity vs. exulting in one's new powers, and in (b) the temptation to give it all up and become human again vs. the high, hard, cold call of duty. Rogue Archivists become a possibility. (Especially interesting when you combine this with the body-hopping in (3) below).

2.
The Archivists are Good Guys, collectively seeking the answer to... something... which will resolve the Fate of All Things.
Recommendation: This meta-plot should be defined collaboratively by each gaming group choosing (1) a Cosmic Threat and (2) a Crucial Question. (Rather like creating the Master in My Life With Master).
E.g. a group that loves The Lord of The Rings may have a Dark Lord threatening to rule all worlds, and their question may be, "How do we find and destroy his shiny ring, source of his power?" A group that likes Neil Gaiman's American Gods might have a brewing cosmic battle between New Gods and Old, and their question might be "How do we make peace?" A group that likes the "fate of a nation over several generations idea" could guide a given family or the leaders of a given group over centuries.

3.
Archivists have access to multiple parallel universes of information, but they need to take on human hosts -- not simply possessing them, but acting as Guardian Angels of a sort -- in order to fill in key gaps.
Recommendation 1: There is never a simple "roll to see if you know" task for an Archivist. Every attempt to gather information should involve some kind of quest in some kind of realm to get the answer, with a certain fairy-tale quality in many cases. (Like HeroQuesting in Hero Wars?) Note that a quest could be necessary even for trying to remember something about one's own human, pre-Archivist past!
Recommendation 2: Archivists can plug into any suitable human in any parallel world and amp them up with Kewl Powerz. (Think The Matrix, only where the Zion guys don't have to stick to one virtual body). Different powers might be available in different parallel universes and/or to different Archivists who exemplify different archetypes -- allowing for the CCG-style use of add-on rules. There should also be some mechanic for "layering" the Archivist's powers on top of the innate abilities of the Host.
Recommendation 3: Since there is a collaboration between host and Archivist, they should be played by different players. (E.g. Player #1 plays Archivist A and B's Host; Player #2 plays Archivist B and A's Host).
{EDIT: Or you could do it the way Ars Magica does, with some players taking on the roles of Mages (here, Archivists) and others Companions (here, Hosts) in a given session, then switching roles the next time).
There should be a constant dilemma about pushing the host too hard and driving him/her crazy and getting him/her killed -- Joan of Arc might be a classic case of this -- and not pushing the host enough and failing in the mission.
There should also be a temptation to just take over the host body, crush the host personality, and enjoy being human again -- one type of Rogue Archivist.

And all of this suggests anti-Archivists out there somewhere, ruthlessly possessing and casting aside Hosts in their quest to answer the ultimate question before the good guy Archivists do....

Quote from: Sydney Freedberg2: Archivists can plug into any suitable human in any parallel world and amp them up with Kewl Powerz. (Think The Matrix, only where the Zion guys don't have to stick to one virtual body). Different powers might be available in different parallel universes and/or to different Archivists who exemplify different archetypes -- allowing for the CCG-style use of add-on rules. There should also be some mechanic for "layering" the Archivist's powers on top of the innate abilities of the Host.

This could be really cool, Archivists as some sort of cosmic Agent (in the Matrix sense) able to jump hosts at will and need...

Thomas

Sydney-

Oooh, shiny! I mean...ahem...those are some interesting ideas worth developing.

One thing, though...why are the Archivists the good guys? I'm not saying they should be the bad guys either. Mabye they're just the completely-alien-with-totally-inhuman-drives guys? Just because they're enlightened humans doesn't mean they have to be what we, from our feeble human point of view, believe to be "good," right? I'm totally down with the anti-Archivists concept. Maybe (with whatever philosopy/morality) the Archivists have some self-imposed limitation that the anti-Archivists don't, making them a challenging opponent?

Adding in parallel worlds is pretty cool, too. And it neatly solves the killing-your-own-father-before-you-were-born problem if our energized characters are going to be traipsing around time and space.

And having some mechanic for pushing your host too hard is neat. Plus, I think it somewhat addresses Thor's idea of making doing bad things something that a character might want to do. So, you know you can defeat that nasty anti-Archivist if only you manifest into your host just a bit more...of course, he might end up a vegetable if you do...

Random thought: how about if there is some initial difficulty in manifesting in (energizing) a human form. Having done so allows the Archivist to more easily do so in the future. That way, there'd be another reason why you don't want to burn out your hosts all the time, because then you'll have to just work on energizing a new one. Hmm...not sure what to do with that, just offering it up for thought.

Okay, for those who haven't read the Lensmen series by E. E. "Doc" Smith (and you should, if you haven't), the Lensmen are the human intermediaries of the Arisians (who are sort of the Archivist analogues here) in their millennia-spanning war against the Eddorians (who'd be the anti-Archivists). Basically, the Arisians have left behind their physical bodies, and developed their minds to the point of having phenomenal psychic powers. They've dedicated their existences to understanding the Macrocosmic All (essentially, understanding everything, everytime, everywhere). The Eddorians are another ancient race, but they're founded on brutal Darwinism...any Eddorian with any weakness has long since been torn apart by his kin. The only ones left are those too strong for any of the others to kill. They still have physical bodies and are masters of technology. Uhm, that's all the key points, I believe, other than that the Arisians are only hanging around this existence in order to help the humans develop into a force capable of defending everybody from the Eddorians, at which point the Arisians plan to move on (essentially die) and go explore the next level of existence. The Eddorians want all the races of the galaxies to worship and serve them.

Quote from: LordSmerfThis could be really cool, Archivists as some sort of cosmic Agent (in the Matrix sense) able to jump hosts at will and need...

Thomas

Hah. Good point. The analogy is not so much the good guys from the Matrix but the bad guys -- the Agents. The trick is trying to be an Agent for Good, which involves not treating the host as kleenex to be used and discarded....

EDIT: Cross-posted with Mr. Morris's excellent points about moral ambiguity and "who's really the good guys?"

Quote from: Andrew Morris...having some mechanic for pushing your host too hard is neat.....

Just realized this should work the other way too: There should be a mechanic for the mortal Host's sensations and passions to overwhelm the incorporeal Archivist. A clumsy or unlucky Archivist could end up like the demons in Sorcerer, bound to some mortal schmuck who keeps them on a chain of addiction to some sensual Need and forces them to provide Kewl Powerz on command.

This sounds like it could be tied thematically in many ways to Marvel Comic's Exiles.

I especially like the possibilities inherent in the idea that you can be "bound" to a host and the team (or whatever) will have to decide how much time they can spend trying to rescue you before they must move on in order to complete their quest.

Thomas

Or the mortal hosts could be completely unaware of the Archivist energizing them. I mean, think about it...you're a puny human, what's it going to do to your ego to find out a super-powerful alien thing is wearing you like a new suit? So, to protect the humans, the Archivists could conceal their presence. The anti-Archivists don't give a damn, and their human hosts end up insane as a result.