The Forge Archives

So, we played Capes over IRC Monday night.  You can check out Tony's most recent posts over in Game Design to see what changes he is considering after this playtest.  We did chargen last week and named the comic Monday.  So without further ado i give you:  Rough Justice #1: New Beginnings (Specters of the Past part 1 of X).

You can find a log of the In Character commentary here and a log of the Out of Character commentary here.

So, since the IC log is relatively short i am sure that you can get a sense for what happened with a quick read through.  One problem was when we tried to clarify for Bryan (who played Nemesis) the difference between Powers and Tropes in comic book terms we recognized that there is no way to.  Depending on your character concept a given effect may be a Power or a Trope, or even both.  Whether this needs amending or not, i can not say.

One thing that i am not sure gets accross in the logs is how long we spent doing this...  The first scene took about 2.5 hours to complete, and the second about another hour or so.  The first scene really highlighted how the dice can get in the way and slow things down (i was also ignoring the Effect Level penalties from not controlling a Complication, partially because i kept forgetting, partially becaus i am lazy, and partially because i just did not feel it was worth the time).  Tony has a proposed solution over in the most recent Capes thread.

The second scene highlighted the weaknesses in the system regarding addressing non-combat scenes.  We were not sure how much dialog we could get per "frame" among other things.

In the end, i had fun.  But i am not sure how much fun everyone else had since participation was limited.  Something that might not be amiss is some sort of mechanic that lets players with no characters in scene contribute mechanically to the outcome.  That would (hopefully) keep everyone interested in what is happening right now.

Perhaps some of the other participants can get in on this with anything i missed...

Thomas

Hello,

As a point of comparison, With Great Power takes a HeroQuest-like approach in designating anything about a character to be an "aspect."

Aunt May is an aspect. Spider-power is an aspect. Job is an aspect. Quick wit is an aspect. And so on. Aspects are essentially all alike under the game rules and take on their "value" relative to one another through the player's choices.

It seems to me that the Power/Trope issue might be re-examined in this light, unless there's a distinction that matters to the procedures of play.

Best,
Ron

Well, in the old (original) version of the rules there was a very clear distinction between the three (Powers/Attitudes/Tropes), but the most recent stuff seems to indicate that we could simplify things...  I am just not sure how exactly to do that...

Thomas

That Tropes/Powers discussion was a really striking one for me.  We just talked past each other so much it was amazing.

I think it was about the question of whether the system needs to uniquely represent the SIS (i.e. one "objective" fact can only map to one rules representation) or not.  But I'm honestly not sure, even now.  Bryan seemed to get really frustrated... if he reads this I hope he'll comment, because I'm curious about what was going on.

Quote from: TonyLBThat Tropes/Powers discussion was a really striking one for me.  We just talked past each other so much it was amazing.

I think it was about the question of whether the system needs to uniquely represent the SIS (i.e. one "objective" fact can only map to one rules representation) or not.  But I'm honestly not sure, even now.  Bryan seemed to get really frustrated... if he reads this I hope he'll comment, because I'm curious about what was going on.

Agreed.  And that is the same basic analysis that i was making.  Bryan wanted an explaination of the narrative (not the mechanical) difference between Powers and Tropes.  It is hard to say whether "Invlunerable" is a Power or a Trope since it could be either one depending on you character.  This means that people are not going to be able to "pick up and play" as easily since they will need to have some basic understanding of the System before they can generate characters...

Thomas

Hi, I'm Bryan and I played the Character Nemesis in the Monday 'Capes' playtest. Here is her character sheet:

Nemesis
Nemesis is a character I ran a LONG time ago, (early 80's). She is essentially a female Daredevil clone created shortly after Frank Miller's influential run on that title.

Secret ID Kathryn Cross, attorney, Helps run the Maybrook Center Legal Clinic.

Drives

Justice 3
Dorian Wise,Corrupt Attorney
A big time attorney, she has crossed swords with him and bested him in court on several occasions. He respects her abilities and has tried to 'headhunt' her for his practice.

Truth 2
Honest Police Inspector
Trying to clean up a police force that LIKES being corrupt. Popular 'hero' cop.

Hope 2
Maybrook Center Legal Clinic
The Free Legal service that Kathryn Cross helps run.

Duty 2
Unknown

Love 1
Archangel- British Superhero, essentially the X-men's Angel but with a Batman-like array of gadgets.

Powers
4Radar Sense
3Intuitive Martial artist
2Incredible Dodging
1Amazing Acrobatics

Tropes
5Manipulate Legal System
4Dazzling Billy Club akshun
3Supersensory Revealation
2Back Alley contacts
1Out go the lights!


Attitude
4Straight Arrow
3Sucker for a sob story
2We can CHANGE THE SYSTEM!
1Everybody gets their day in court

Unfortunately, I didn't get to actually DO much in the game. As has been pointed out ONE scene took 2.5 hours to play out! This is game in it's present form is HOPELESS for IRC and clearly needs a lot of streamling to be acceptable for F2F gaming.

That said, Capes has a lot of potential, I'm glad to see a superhero game that is based on superhero story dynamics rather that miniatures wargaming and a physical simulation model. But Capes need a lot of work before it's 'ready for prime time'

1.Simplification
  I found the actual operating mechanics of the game somewhat difficulat to grasp, and as the online play account showed conflicts can drag on and on without coming to any decisive conclusion, to a completely unacceptable degree. While the system catches the ebb and flow of comic conflict quite well, there is too much of it.
Plus this isn't a pick-up-and-play game.First there is a monologue phase where the players supposedly just talk at each other, but then it turns out that they are in fact doing a lot more in that phase than just talking. There are complications, and stakes and debts and dicepools and control and phases, all interacting with each other. And anyone attempting to play the system needs a THOROUGH understanding of the system to to anything.

2.Clarification
The Power/Trope thing not only confused me, it seems to confuse the game's maker too! It's impossible to create a character without an extensive understanding of the different mechanical roles, they play in the game.(and the mechanics are somewhat obscure) Of course without character's you can't play! It's even more difficult when you take into account the fact that an ability can be either a trope or a power.
The game does a poor job of putting forth what the PURPOSE of the differentiation is, simply stating that it has different mechanical roles is usless when you have never played the game and don't really understand the mechanics.  What are these different mechanics FOR?
Finally the game allows for player narrative control under some conditions but doesn't really explain the extent of that control.  And has been stated before the game gives little explanation of what your options are particularly for non-combat scenes.

If you want to create an easily understandable game based on comic books you need to think in terms of what aspects of comic book structure  the rules are supposed to be emulating and how you can explain them in terms of what happens in the comics.

Well thats my first impression of 'Capes'. Like I said it has potential but it needs a LOT of rethinking and streamlining.

Actually, I was sort of hoping that you'd speak about the particular experience (this being the Actual Play forum).

I got the impression that you felt put upon or... well, angered by the fact that the system is rough around the edges.  That sort of thing makes me wonder whether there's an issue of Social Contract that is being ignored, since I've rarely seen somebody get angry about rules... I've often seen people use rules as an excuse when they're angry about something else entirely.

So, were you angry, or was I just totally misreading the situation?

Well I'm not exactly angry , I expected the rules to be a bit rough around the edges,  but I suppose I got a little testy thinking about the experience, I mean I was left hanging fire for 2.5 hours.......

 Still I like the basic idea of the the system and look forward to seeing what the improved rules are like.

'kay, guess I was just jumping at phantoms.  I was so fascinated watching other people play (even over IRC) that the time sort of zipped by for me.

As i (hopefully) mentioned in some thread somewhere, i believe that it would be good to include some sort of meta-game mechanic that allows people not in a scene to do stuff...  Perhaps allow them a Frame during Monologue (if it is kept) or allow them to buy singleton frames for narration.  Basically get everyone involved even if their character's are off-screen.

Thomas

Mind if I address that on this thread over in Indie Games, rather than here?